Character specific punishment list.

endnow

endnow

[09] Warrior
Ive seen similar threads for other characters so why not for Seig? Alot of you may think that seig isn't particularly good at punishment and compared to alot of other characters you may be right. However Sacharja brought up an interesting point and that is as follows "hes not nearly as bad at punishing as people think. Its just a bitch to learn the timing for a+kA on every 2nd move in the game.". A+K:a, SCH kb sure beats doing 3k or 6a to punish -15 on block attacks IMO and may even be a better option than b6 due to higher damage potential. Another thing Id like to get down on this thread is instances where WS k should be used instead of WS against lows or moves that force you to crouch.
Here I will list some common moves and their punishments for several characters, feel free to add characters or correct me as well.

Nightmare:

AA
k / 6k

AAB
WS

1A66
WS k (will beat out GSa GI), WS (will get GIed by GSa but beat everything else)

WS AA
3 / 3a / agA

BB
6k / 3k / A+K:a

BBB
WS

6B (-28 on hit = free lunch)
1b (only if your close enough) / 3a

6B:B (-23 on hit but can put you at un-punishable distance if used at tip range)
3b (only ever at tip range) / 3a

FC 3b (Can put you at a un-punishable distance if used at tip range)
3b / agA / 3a

WS {b]
3b will TC NSS k and beat out everything else. GS A will GI the 3b though so be careful

4kk
WS or WS k if you duck the 2nd hit.

BT FC k
WS (same for all characters)

3A+B
WS , WS [a] (if your at range)

A+B (Disco-ball)
agA / 3a / 3b

bt A+B
as above and 1b

A+K
agA / 3 / 3a

22_88AB
WS

11_44_77 a
k / WS or k if ducked.

33_99b
1b / agA / 3a

33_99b66
4k beats out everything but GS k which it trades with in seigs favor)

11_77b
WS / WS a

44bb
3a / agA / 3b

44b NSSk (trades with b6)
A+K:a / 3k / 6k

66 A+B (-16 can only be punished by mids)
6b / 3k

66k
k

FC A_B+G
WS k

GS a
3b / b6 / A+K:a

GS kk
WS or WS k if the 2nd hit is ducked

NSS k and A+B
3b / 6b / A+K:a

Mitsurugi

1A
WS k (-15 wtf were they thinking!?)

Ba and B:a
3b at close range / b6 at tip

3b
A+K:a / 3k / 6k

4
3b TCs Myst b and beats everything else / 4k TCs Myst b but loses to Myst k / k loses to Myst b

FC 1b
A+K:a / 3k (due to FC 1bb I wouldn't attempt this often)

Kb or K:b
WS / WSa

2kb
3a / agA / 3b

4kb
WS k

A+B
A+K:a / 3k

A+B6
agA / 3a / 3b

B+K
k / 6k

A+K
WS k

11_77A
WS k

66bb
WS

33_99b
3a / agA / 3b

11_77 B[A] and 11_77BAB
Both 3b and 4k beat out ALL Myst options with TC and beat out the 3rd B on 11_77bab and are always ch :).

Myst BB{B] ~ RLC b
agA, 6a interrupts and 3a Trades in Seigs favor.

Myst 6BB
3a / agA / 3b

Myst 6{B] ~ RLC b
agA, 6a and 3a all interrupt

Myst BKB and Myst KB
3b / b6 / A+K:a

Allow me to talk about Relic for a moment. As alot of you may know RLC a is i7 and litrally beats out anything Seig can throw at it if Mitsu has either changed into Relic through a move (11_77[k], 6[a] ect) or if a move in Relic has been blocked or has whiffed (RLC [k], RLC A+B) which is why Mitsus punish list might look a bit short in comparison to Nightmares. This isnt even mentioning RLC A+B+K GI that also can get to alot of moves in time so make sure you keep this in mind when playing Mitsu!

RLC A
3b / A+K:a / b6

RLC [a] ~ Myst
b6 / A+K:a / 3k
3b and 4k will TC Myst b and beat out Myst k as above though so id suggest one of these two. after you condition your opponent to not attack in Myst so they dont get ch 1b will get to them before they can even block same goes with 3a and agA

RLC A+B
WS or k if ducked but watch out for RLC GI



Thats two characters out of the way for now and il definitely go through more characters later on. Feel free to correct me as always and even add your own posts similar to this one. It would be good if we could get all the major characters done. I chose these two because I know them both almost as well as I know seig thus I was less likely to make mistakes than if i did an unfamiliar character.

Lets talk about Seigs punishment game and when you should use certain attacks to punish for a moment. In most cases ive listed multiple attacks you can use to punish and some are better than others in different circumstances.
3 SCH kb does more damage than either 3a or agA BUT if you can get a wall splat off with either of the latter after blocking a attack then you should go for those instead.
As Sacharja pointed out Seig has a decent punisher in A+K:a. As tight as the timing is to use this move as a punisher it sure as hell beats the shit out of using 3k or k to punish a -15 move. It even beats b6 in terms of damage potential so my advice to all of you seig users (myself included) is to train yourself to use and abuse this move.
Also you may notice and most likely already knew that WS k at i15 can punish a number of attacks WS a and cannot punish. I think while playing its important to know what these moves are so you can take your 22 damage and +2 frames instead of nothing. While were talking about WS attacks When possible you should always use WS over WS a due to more damage potential on nh, ch and even block however Ws A has alot more range than WS b so again Learn when to use this to punish instinctively even if on nh WSA is disadvantageous and most characters have attacks that can beat out anything in SSH after WS [a]

Furthermore after 6b You are at +2 frames and generally at mid range same as after a blocked agA. ive got a few things I do in this situation but id like you people to express theories on what you think seig should do at +2 frames depending on range and opponent.
 
hmm at +2 frames im not sure what sieg should do. 22_88B may be used if the opponent tries to retaliate with another long-ranged move.
 
Right you are Sacharja Wiki says its +4.

Speaking of Wiki are you gonna write a character guide for seig?
 
endnow said:
Right you are Sacharja Wiki says its +4.

Speaking of Wiki are you gonna write a character guide for seig?
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I could, but I dont know if I want to invest that much time into it. College and WoW are time-consuming enough as is.
 
Mikey I haven't put that to the test but 2kb is -23 and 1b is i24 which means it can Just be blocked on time.

Yeah I hear that Sacharja the above list took me a good hour and a half and people seem to be paying the 'seigs most useless move' thread more mind than this one, this doesn't make me wanna go back and do more punishment lists even though I personally thought it was a good idea
 
Thats the other thing. Who would I be doing that for? A handful of people?
I dont mind giving advice, be it here or on MSN or whatever, but writing a guide at this point seems a bit pointless.
Also, 2KB is at least -25. If you watched my vids vs Chazys Mitsu you shouldve seen me punish it with 1B.
 
Nice topic Endnow, but still... SHARP UP!!! -_-
Mitsu's 2kb can be punished with Sig's 1B, biggest damage.

This is the very important topic for Sig. Thanks, and STOP 3-F***ing-Bing! You don't need that trash.
 
Thank you Jink
kks Relax I didn't test it I only saw -23 on Wiki. Il take your word for it though.

Yeh I 3d too much but Im a new endnow now I swear! Well i use too much wr AA still but that will change by the end of the year too :). I dont use 3 unless im relatively sure it will hit because on block my opponents own me. That said you sound like a noob when you call the move trash its probs the best 3b in the game. Are you joking?
 
endnow said:
Thank you Jink
kks Relax I didn't test it I only saw -23 on Wiki. Il take your word for it though.

Yeh I 3d too much but Im a new endnow now I swear! Well i use too much wr AA still but that will change by the end of the year too :). I dont use 3 unless im relatively sure it will hit because on block my opponents own me. That said you sound like a noob when you call the move trash its probs the best 3b in the game. Are you joking?
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Neither. I'm no noob and I'm not joking. I'll clarify what I mean by trash; its the way many uses 3B, while not seeing the opponents are just Guarding still. That's when the moves becomes trash, when it is used upon blind luck. Like in one of DTN SC4 tournaments, against a Sophy. It was blind luck at its best.

But check this:
3: Is fast, has good TC, Launches (CLOSE/MID RANGE ONLY) for SCH'K combo and SCH'A+B on CHit, easy and compulsive to perform, its bad on guard at Top-play.

11: Is a little slow, has good and long TC, does not launch but IT STUNS ON CHIT EVEN AT TIP RANGE for SCH'k combo that follow with SBH'B Ukemi, or simply SCH'K.

Both are into-stance moves that can be used for many mix-up things. But when I see people doing 3, with their opponent a mile away form launch range, I just want to throw-up. What are these people trying to accomplish by using 3 in that way? Nothing, because they did it out of uncontrollable compulsive reactions. I'm not directing this post to anyone specific btw, and I'm not going to point out-loud people here, I don't like that. Is just that sometimes I get pissed and disappointed of watching Sig players losing the same way and whining about balance, or winning with blind luck and getting all-credit out.

"Ohh, he's the master of 3, he knows when the opponent will get hit by it, ohhh, ohh, that's skills, ohh"

BULL-F***ING-SHIT. ;)

I repeat, I'm not throwing this at someone specific. I'm also pissed because I haven't played in a long time, so nothing personal against anyone here.

Sig is range and momentum. I'd chose 11 over 3 anytime that is appropriate to use. I don't like playing "go-kill-myself" in SC4, or in any other fighting game I play competitively. But that's just me.
 
Jink said:
Neither. I'm no noob and I'm not joking. I'll clarify what I mean by trash; its the way many uses 3B, while not seeing the opponents are just Guarding still. That's when the moves becomes trash, when it is used upon blind luck. Like in one of DTN SC4 tournaments, against a Sophy. It was blind luck at its best.

But check this:
3: Is fast, has good TC, Launches (CLOSE/MID RANGE ONLY) for SCH'K combo and SCH'A+B on CHit, easy and compulsive to perform, its bad on guard at Top-play.

11: Is a little slow, has good and long TC, does not launch but IT STUNS ON CHIT EVEN AT TIP RANGE for SCH'k combo that follow with SBH'B Ukemi, or simply SCH'K.

Both are into-stance moves that can be used for many mix-up things. But when I see people doing 3, with their opponent a mile away form launch range, I just want to throw-up. What are these people trying to accomplish by using 3 in that way? Nothing, because they did it out of uncontrollable compulsive reactions. I'm not directing this post to anyone specific btw, and I'm not going to point out-loud people here, I don't like that. Is just that sometimes I get pissed and disappointed of watching Sig players losing the same way and whining about balance, or winning with blind luck and getting all-credit out.

"Ohh, he's the master of 3, he knows when the opponent will get hit by it, ohhh, ohh, that's skills, ohh"

BULL-F***ING-SHIT. ;)

I repeat, I'm not throwing this at someone specific. I'm also pissed because I haven't played in a long time, so nothing personal against anyone here.

Sig is range and momentum. I'd chose 11 over 3 anytime that is appropriate to use. I don't like playing "go-kill-myself" in SC4, or in any other fighting game I play competitively. But that's just me.
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So like any other move if you use it a certain way its trash yes? b4 isnt likely to interrupt many attack strings but post GI against a re GI friendly opponent its Uba good so you cant calll the move trash. All you said was 'this move is trash' without justifying shit. I know your not a noob but you dont have enough credibility (with me at least) to not justify a claim like that :|. In fact no ones that credible IMO if your gonna say a move is trash unless its totally obvious why your gonna have to say Why its trash for your opinion to be taken seriously at all.

Yeh new videos up soon I play alot safer now no more throwing out 3 for the sake of it whick il link in the video thread so. Im totally with you on the 3 abuse but im not entirely sure where that 'then they complain about balance' remark came from. I havent seen many complaints about seig being imbalanced and i haven't made any myself :S. With Reguards to DTN being able to 3b on CH and knowing when to do it being BS... I dunno I don't find it that unlikely that someone who's been playing the series for so long has gotten a feel for the game beyond what most people do.

Your allowed your own opinion and I think il keep mine. I use 11_77 alot now-days and I like the move.
 
Misunderstood again. I won't give you more gas into this, I don't like discussions when people don't understand, and just keep on, for the sake of keeping on. So live it like that.

I don't owe credibility to no-one, for I've been doing my part on giving all the abstract knowledge of the complexity of battle, mix-ups, gamble, risks, etc. Things that are not learned just by knowing your character's command list or frames, etc. I teach battle thinking and common sense.

Peace buddy, and again, thanks for the topic. ;)
 
3(B) is a natural reaction for counter in most cases and if you pause just a second to try to do something else it might mean your doom cause this is a fast paced game....more specific the little pause you do trying to catch yourself not doing what you would normally do.....anti 3(B) moves should only be done in there proper place ... when you come across people that can punish 3(B) so therefore its only right to say that you play the opponent and if you can punish with 3(B) and your opponent gets owned then why change it.......i have levels of siggy that i play according to how well my opponent is.....
 
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