Mage
I'll make you submit!
Thanks for the tips guys, I think I'll take a look at Momiji, I like her 9P and 9PK "stances" or whatever it is referred to as.
Dead or Alive 5 Ultimate
- Thread starter UNDERX
- Start date
0VincentRayne0
Faith
She may good for beginners but is pretty unviable in competitive play. She only has one critical stun and it's a mid punch. And it's SUPER hard for her to open people up. She requires a much more passive play style that I will look into more I believe. She's not a pressure character so I believe she's more of a punish character. Bit like I said I will have to test more stuff out. Which will be hard since I will have to play against actual players and is stuff I can't really just try on training mode.
Mage
I'll make you submit!
I've just started out so I don't think I'll be doing competitive play in DOA for a while lol.
0VincentRayne0
Faith
that's what i thought too. i meant in high level play though. whether it be casual or competitive. although there is probably some unlocked potential that no one has reached yet since no one really plays her. but then AGAIN she is kind of a rushed character like rachel and probably this new chick too.
Xernuht
[12] Conqueror
She's relatively balanced. She has some pressure tools, some punishment tools, some zoning stuff, and some very effective anti-wake-up tech (7P and 9PP+K can put you over wake-up kicks). She doesn't have a set style, but this isn't quite a good thing. Pretty much anyone else can do something better than her, and you must adapt her style to not die. Her real failings are in her lack of low options (Pretty much 2P and 2H+K/1PK are the only useful ones, but only 2P is remotely safe), weak stun game (she can try to bait mid-combo holds reasonably well), and her Tenku (double-jump) stance isn't 100% effective outside of a combo ender (All attacks are high, nothing tracks, and her throw isn't an offensive hold). Most of your work will come from stun->launch set-ups and throw punishment.
MuffinMan123
[10] Knight
huh? that's weird, kasumi board told me that she's not easy to use and suggested ein instead, weird.
what should be a beginner's approach to ayane? I saw the top 10 moves, your breakdown topic, and some combos and that's about it. what should a new ayane player focus on practicing?
Xernuht
[12] Conqueror
Adjusting to her back-turn stance (very important) and spacing (important for any character). At least, given my limited experience fighting Force-of-Nature.
0VincentRayne0
Faith
Kasumi is no longer a beginner (easy to pick up character) in the latest release of this game. hell i don't think she was even in vanilla. her execution is too fast and pretty strict with its timing to allow her to be "easy" anymore. most people, i guess, think of her as DOA4 Kasumi still. well, team ninja has made sure to nip that in the bud real fast and quick like.
ZOo00OOm
is dead
What are some of her best tools to approach the opponent and build pressure? Also what is considered unsafe in this game?
Xernuht
[12] Conqueror
Indeed. Her execution barrier was pretty high in 5, but 5U makes her one of the highest of the regular cast. Hayate's probably the closest to 'pick-up-and-play' the ninjas have anymore.
No, not counting Momiji. She's simple, but does require a little finesse to open up her massive damage regularly, and she's a shrine maiden for her day job.
Force_of_Nature
[12] Conqueror
HajinShinobi said:
Well, if you want to use Kasumi as a relatively straightforward rush-down character that just pokes her opponents until she either yields a CB, launch or grab, then yes she is easy and a pain in the ass for slow characters. However, her combos & pressure require a lot of dedication and practise to get down. Referring to her as a "beginner character" is a little misleading. Her execution makes her intermediate-to-advanced.
Pay attention to the range of your zoning moves, and slowly familiarize your self with Ayane's movement options. For instance, you can practise a different movement technique in each practice session such as utilizing Back Twirls to set up BT mix-ups; Forward Twirls for offensive mix-ups; 8P and Hajin Dashes (8PH) for quickly alternating between FT and BT stances; or 7P's for creating space. As for Top 10 moves, use and abuse 3H+K, 4P, 6P, 2P, 1P, 3P, P (Don't underestimate this move's goodness), 8H+KK, P+KP(1) ,and when you feel more comfortable 66KK4 & BT PP6KK4. All these moves are good in some way and serve a purpose in Ayane's gameplay. Once you get comfortable with how Ayane plays, you'll be able to more effectively see what moves work for her and which don't. As a tip, please try to keep 236K usage to a minimum as tempting as it may be to throw this move out at every turn.
I'll be straight up and say that Ayane is in no way a beginner character and it will take you quite a while to get a handle on how she plays. You essentially can't play her in a straightforward way without limiting her potential heavily.
ZOo00OOm said:
Practice utilizing BT PP6KK4 if you want to pressure with Ayane. You can approach in a bunch of ways but don't worry too much about approaching with Ayane, let the opponent come to you instead. Anything about -8 or worse is considered unsafe. Once you start blocking stuff -10 or worse, you should be getting guaranteed i7 command grabs (i6 for grapplers). Technically you can throw punish -7 or lower, but it's not as reliable and is risky if your punishment isn't on point.
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Force_of_Nature
[12] Conqueror
I'd say this is about right. Ayane and Hayabusa are tough to use, and Kasumi has the hardest advanced combos. Hayate is kinda in between. He's not too taxing to use, but he's not exactly braindead easy either. Raijin is also a bitch.
Of the ninjas, Momiji is by far the easiest to pick up and play. One session in the lab and you can already be doing crazy shit with her that yields decent damage. Her 6P also seems to juggle off of almost any launch, low or high. Momiji's challenges pretty much revolve around her inability to pressure someone that knows how to fight her and doesn't fall for her gimmicks. It also doesn't help if she's fighting a ranged character like Ayane who can fight her just fine at mid-long range. Essentially you'll do great with Momiji against scrubs (6PKK mixups, all day, erry day!), but competent opponents will keep her honest. Rachel is the same deal, easy to use, but you need to be crafty in how you win with her thanks to her vortex getting destroyed.
HajinShinobi
[09] Warrior
Kasumi is only considered "difficult" if you're trying to execute her higher learning curve combos. She has simple and damaging combos that get the job done without her higher execution combos (those would come into play later with practice). Her higher execution combos include her KK7K6P+K, PKK7K6P+K, 9K6P+K and 7K6P+K.
Outside of this, yes, she is simple to pick up and play.
FoN summed it up for me already.
3P, 3H+K, BTPP6KK4, P4P, BT6K, BT2K, BT2P, and BT3KK are all very good ways to approach the opponent. But they also good to keep opponents out as well. You can always try to just inch your way in with just Integrated Movement or generic movement (or both) during footsies to close distance as well.
As far as throw punishment is concerned, in general, strings or single pokes that leave you at -8 or more is considered i7 throw punishable. -6 to -7 is considered semi-safe/risky because they are vunerable to i5 neutral throws. But those are breakable on reaction. For strikers, all of them (except for Alpha-152) have i7 throws for throw punishment. For Grapplers, all of them have i6 throws for throw punishment, so Grapplers can technically throw punish strings and single pokes that end at -7.
J2S
[08] Mercenary
is there an easy command for hayate's Rajiin throw ?
0VincentRayne0
Faith
rotate the analog stick as fast as you can, drop kick your television, and throw your controller throw a glass window, and take a nap. even then that's a 50% chance you will pull it off so good luck man.
but the easy solution is just to do Hayate's other throw. much easier to do and for about the same damage anyway. just my opinion though.
J2S
[08] Mercenary
thanks i'll just stick with his other throw
MuffinMan123
[10] Knight
is there a place to print the movelists of characters without buying the guide? tekken wiki and doa5 wiki are really lacking when it comes to this kind of stuff, the sc5 wiki is so much better lol
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HajinShinobi
[09] Warrior
SCD aka SOCALDOA is hosting DOA5U casuals and a tournament this Saturday on November 30th in Inglewood, CA. Hit up Max Mena orMaurice Wilson for the address.
Starts at 4:30pm
$5 for venue at the door, $5 for the tournament.
Infomation and details can be found in this thread, with links to registration and a link to their stream; http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/11-30-13-scd-casuals-tournament-inglewood-ca.3790/#post-141180
Apologies for the short notice, people have been pretty busy lately.
Starts at 4:30pm
$5 for venue at the door, $5 for the tournament.
Infomation and details can be found in this thread, with links to registration and a link to their stream; http://www.freestepdodge.com/threads/11-30-13-scd-casuals-tournament-inglewood-ca.3790/#post-141180
Apologies for the short notice, people have been pretty busy lately.
Windstar
[13] Hero
Jacky thoughts; after over 200 games and a less than 40% win rate:
6P variants - Jacky's bread and butter poke. It's neutral on hit and block, a natural combo with 6PK or 6PP and it has a number of variants that hit at all heights (6PPK: Mid, High, High; 6PPP: Mid, High, Mid; 6PP2K: Mid, High, Low). The 6PP is a natural combo that's safe on block and -4 on hit, it contains and unless the player is getting repetitive, there's no real way to predict the final hit's height. All three finishers stun two of which aren't SE-able. 6P is fast at 12 frames making it on par with the Ninja's and other striker's 6Ps. Although I feel that Jacky's may be on the lower priority side akin to Kokoro's 6P.
Jacky's Auto-Punch Parry - Catches all high punches and slaps the opponent for a small amount of damage and puts both players at neutral. Useful for mind games as the opponent has to learn that high punches are automatically held meaning that Jacky can contain and force players to use high kicks or are stuck with a mid-low game which makes it easier for Jacky to "guess" hold mid or low attacks; as far as mids are concerned this works out to his advantage thanks to his mid punch hold.
4PK - A high, high knockdown move. Not very useful as the damage is pretty minor and its not a natural combo so it doesn't lock the opponent to blocking both hits. If they do, however, Jacky recovers back-turned with +3 frame advantage. Kinda useful.
64T - Jacky's strongest throw at 66 damage (better than Kokoro's three part throw by 1 point) can reverse positions depending on stance. Has monstrous throw range, Bass would be jealous. The nice thing about this throw is the huge damage off counter hits, easily hitting 100 damage. It's also one of the best options post mid-hold for Jacky as it puts the opponent right in Jacky's throw range. 12 frames.
46T - Jacky's other major command throw. Second strongest throw at 60 damage, but has a unique mechanic in causing the VF5-style wall bounce when near a wall. Although you can get the wall bounce, you can't quite get the damage, but there's a number of combos, including wall-slams and cliffhangers that can follow after this throw, bring its potential damage up even higher. Highest I managed on a basic wall slam combo is 77... maybe you guys can find better?
Jacky's mid hold - Jacky's mid hold looks pretty weak despite its long animation, the beauty is after the animation Jacky is left with a massive +10 frame advantage to literally do whatever he wants. If the opponent sits blocking, you throw, if he sidesteps, throw him! If the opponent attempts to jab, Jacky 6Ps. Not even Pai gets it this good.
66K+H4 - Jacky's CB with an optional 4 input to leave him back turned. No matter the distance, this always leaves Jacky safe at -3 and the BT opens up some shenanigans. Kinda risky, but the rewards are pretty good.
3P+KT - Normally Jacky's combos start with 4H+K or 23P, once you put them in stun, Jacky can whip this out for some easy damage and a "Come on!" taunt just to rub it in.
[6]K:H - Jacky's just frame knee. Perhaps the sole reason why Jacky moved from beginner to intermediate - advanced players recommend. Although not nearly as difficult to pull off as Akira's, its usage is more pronounced in both VF5 and DOA5U. The move acts as a re-launcher for many of Jacky's major combos. Slam an opponent for 4H+K, then [6]K:H and repeat two or three times to eek out a bit more damage. The move is best known as the Flash Sword Kick, or FSK. Its not vital for successful Jacky play, but it does give a lot more combo damage. Don't bother using this online as the lag will screw up your timing too much.
3KP2KK - A rather famous Jacky string in VF5. It has some pluses in 5U too. The 2K hits low and gives a +4, the last kick is guaranteed if the 2K hits and 3K has quite some reach. Because the move is kinda famous, everyone pretty much knows the pattern and can block all of it. So its not that useful. The variant, 3KPK isn't much better since the last hit is high and can be ducked mid-string during block. With that said, 3K is actually pretty good at +5 on hit and thanks to the range is can work as a solid interrupt.
PP variants - PP is a natural combo, P by itself is +1 on hit and -1 on block. The variants continue as either highs or mids, but some of them have built in natural combos too. One example is PP6PP, the 6PP follow-up is natural on the second P, meaning if they don't hold 6P then the second P is guaranteed and then this leads to three follow-ups a high kick, a mid punch or a low kick. PPP is all high with the last hit being a knockdown, damage is low, however, and this string operates very similar to Kokoro's PPP string with the last hit being duckable on hit or block, but it is guaranteed on counter hit. PP8P+K is a sidestep into a stance and why you would use this I have no earthly clue. PPK is all high with the last hit being a lengthy stun that can't be slow-escaped (or held for some time). PP4PK is also all high, the 4P stuns on normal hit. For the most part, Jacky's PP string is less varied than Hitomi's and probably less rewarding. This is not to say that Hitomi actually has better follow ups after her PP, though...
3PP - This is a natural combo that stuns on the first hit. Can be useful to extend stun time too. Both hits are high and a high follow up (P) and two mid follow ups (P+K and [P+K]) the second mid follow up has a useful guard break if fully charged while both mid hits will bring the opponent into stun threshold for 66K+H CB, though only one of them is slow escapeable.
1P+KP variants - Mostly used as combo filler. Despite the animations, Jacky isn't in crouching when using this string. For some reason, a lot of players eat the P, seems to have a lot of priority.
1H+K - Jacky's sweeping low kick. Unlike VF5, this move has a positive frame advantage on hit, knockdown on counter hit. Kinda useful.
2H+KKK - Jacky's lightning kicks. At 12 frames, very fast and pretty strong. Block frames are deceptive. The first three hits are, yet again, a natural combo and can't be held. Mix up one, two, or three hits for fun and profit.
KPPP - This is a natural combo. Get hit by the first K and opponents stuck until the last P. Further, at the end of the string opponents are at red stun and can be CB'ed. The good news is that the stun is SE-able making this string kinda gimmicky. Luckily the finishing K can be delayed or not used at all. On counter hit the string makes it difficult to hold after the last P.
Slide Shuffle Step (44P+K) - I have no idea what to do with this.
Fire Darts (Running K+H) - Yeah!
Auto-Taunt - Jacky automatically taunts after certain moves and strings. Some require hits and others don't. I suggest trying out a lot of the moves that have taunts in them just to piss off your opponent. A lot of Japanese players who play Jacky say the taunts are useful in flustering your opponent because many of the taunts are tied to some of Jacky's worst strings, meaning if they got hit by it, they got hit by a bad move. How embarrassing.
6P variants - Jacky's bread and butter poke. It's neutral on hit and block, a natural combo with 6PK or 6PP and it has a number of variants that hit at all heights (6PPK: Mid, High, High; 6PPP: Mid, High, Mid; 6PP2K: Mid, High, Low). The 6PP is a natural combo that's safe on block and -4 on hit, it contains and unless the player is getting repetitive, there's no real way to predict the final hit's height. All three finishers stun two of which aren't SE-able. 6P is fast at 12 frames making it on par with the Ninja's and other striker's 6Ps. Although I feel that Jacky's may be on the lower priority side akin to Kokoro's 6P.
Jacky's Auto-Punch Parry - Catches all high punches and slaps the opponent for a small amount of damage and puts both players at neutral. Useful for mind games as the opponent has to learn that high punches are automatically held meaning that Jacky can contain and force players to use high kicks or are stuck with a mid-low game which makes it easier for Jacky to "guess" hold mid or low attacks; as far as mids are concerned this works out to his advantage thanks to his mid punch hold.
4PK - A high, high knockdown move. Not very useful as the damage is pretty minor and its not a natural combo so it doesn't lock the opponent to blocking both hits. If they do, however, Jacky recovers back-turned with +3 frame advantage. Kinda useful.
64T - Jacky's strongest throw at 66 damage (better than Kokoro's three part throw by 1 point) can reverse positions depending on stance. Has monstrous throw range, Bass would be jealous. The nice thing about this throw is the huge damage off counter hits, easily hitting 100 damage. It's also one of the best options post mid-hold for Jacky as it puts the opponent right in Jacky's throw range. 12 frames.
46T - Jacky's other major command throw. Second strongest throw at 60 damage, but has a unique mechanic in causing the VF5-style wall bounce when near a wall. Although you can get the wall bounce, you can't quite get the damage, but there's a number of combos, including wall-slams and cliffhangers that can follow after this throw, bring its potential damage up even higher. Highest I managed on a basic wall slam combo is 77... maybe you guys can find better?
Jacky's mid hold - Jacky's mid hold looks pretty weak despite its long animation, the beauty is after the animation Jacky is left with a massive +10 frame advantage to literally do whatever he wants. If the opponent sits blocking, you throw, if he sidesteps, throw him! If the opponent attempts to jab, Jacky 6Ps. Not even Pai gets it this good.
66K+H4 - Jacky's CB with an optional 4 input to leave him back turned. No matter the distance, this always leaves Jacky safe at -3 and the BT opens up some shenanigans. Kinda risky, but the rewards are pretty good.
3P+KT - Normally Jacky's combos start with 4H+K or 23P, once you put them in stun, Jacky can whip this out for some easy damage and a "Come on!" taunt just to rub it in.
[6]K:H - Jacky's just frame knee. Perhaps the sole reason why Jacky moved from beginner to intermediate - advanced players recommend. Although not nearly as difficult to pull off as Akira's, its usage is more pronounced in both VF5 and DOA5U. The move acts as a re-launcher for many of Jacky's major combos. Slam an opponent for 4H+K, then [6]K:H and repeat two or three times to eek out a bit more damage. The move is best known as the Flash Sword Kick, or FSK. Its not vital for successful Jacky play, but it does give a lot more combo damage. Don't bother using this online as the lag will screw up your timing too much.
3KP2KK - A rather famous Jacky string in VF5. It has some pluses in 5U too. The 2K hits low and gives a +4, the last kick is guaranteed if the 2K hits and 3K has quite some reach. Because the move is kinda famous, everyone pretty much knows the pattern and can block all of it. So its not that useful. The variant, 3KPK isn't much better since the last hit is high and can be ducked mid-string during block. With that said, 3K is actually pretty good at +5 on hit and thanks to the range is can work as a solid interrupt.
PP variants - PP is a natural combo, P by itself is +1 on hit and -1 on block. The variants continue as either highs or mids, but some of them have built in natural combos too. One example is PP6PP, the 6PP follow-up is natural on the second P, meaning if they don't hold 6P then the second P is guaranteed and then this leads to three follow-ups a high kick, a mid punch or a low kick. PPP is all high with the last hit being a knockdown, damage is low, however, and this string operates very similar to Kokoro's PPP string with the last hit being duckable on hit or block, but it is guaranteed on counter hit. PP8P+K is a sidestep into a stance and why you would use this I have no earthly clue. PPK is all high with the last hit being a lengthy stun that can't be slow-escaped (or held for some time). PP4PK is also all high, the 4P stuns on normal hit. For the most part, Jacky's PP string is less varied than Hitomi's and probably less rewarding. This is not to say that Hitomi actually has better follow ups after her PP, though...
3PP - This is a natural combo that stuns on the first hit. Can be useful to extend stun time too. Both hits are high and a high follow up (P) and two mid follow ups (P+K and [P+K]) the second mid follow up has a useful guard break if fully charged while both mid hits will bring the opponent into stun threshold for 66K+H CB, though only one of them is slow escapeable.
1P+KP variants - Mostly used as combo filler. Despite the animations, Jacky isn't in crouching when using this string. For some reason, a lot of players eat the P, seems to have a lot of priority.
1H+K - Jacky's sweeping low kick. Unlike VF5, this move has a positive frame advantage on hit, knockdown on counter hit. Kinda useful.
2H+KKK - Jacky's lightning kicks. At 12 frames, very fast and pretty strong. Block frames are deceptive. The first three hits are, yet again, a natural combo and can't be held. Mix up one, two, or three hits for fun and profit.
KPPP - This is a natural combo. Get hit by the first K and opponents stuck until the last P. Further, at the end of the string opponents are at red stun and can be CB'ed. The good news is that the stun is SE-able making this string kinda gimmicky. Luckily the finishing K can be delayed or not used at all. On counter hit the string makes it difficult to hold after the last P.
Slide Shuffle Step (44P+K) - I have no idea what to do with this.
Fire Darts (Running K+H) - Yeah!
Auto-Taunt - Jacky automatically taunts after certain moves and strings. Some require hits and others don't. I suggest trying out a lot of the moves that have taunts in them just to piss off your opponent. A lot of Japanese players who play Jacky say the taunts are useful in flustering your opponent because many of the taunts are tied to some of Jacky's worst strings, meaning if they got hit by it, they got hit by a bad move. How embarrassing.
Reptile
Soul Calibur V
This guy...