Defense of Patroklos

Defend Patroklos

  • Nay

    Votes: 8 29.6%
  • Very Unlikely

    Votes: 5 18.5%
  • Maybe

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Most Likely

    Votes: 6 22.2%
  • Yay

    Votes: 5 18.5%

  • Total voters
    27

Thaeonblade

[09] Warrior
Patroklos was very "endearing" in the story mode and clearly displayed himself as a warrior worthy of Soul Calibur through his heroic and selfless acts like:

- Ignorance of an obvious evil when it's staring him in the face, when he has part of said evil's power in his very blood.
- Has murdered countless innocent people unprovoked in a quest for misguided vengeance.
- Disrespects friend and foe alike.
- Selfishlessly abandons the organization that gave him a free sword, training and had helped him find his sister.
- Displays a very arrogant and cocky attitude for a so-called "Holy Warrior."
- Cries and whines in denial when his obvious flaws and mistakes are shoved into his face.
- Rejects his sister for reasons beyond her control even after she saved his life .
- Has an obsession with his sister and mother that contains strong undertones of incest.
- Never makes up his own mind on what he wants in his life.
- Is easily led around by anyone and everyone.
- Murders his sister after going through a character arc for the purposes of saving her.

You're a lawyer representing Patroklos in a trial before a Video Game Supreme Court with all of the Soul Calibur guest characters as Jury and Edgemaster as Judge with the prosecution displaying an apparently strong case against Patroklos based on his failures, actions and the overall poor quality of SCV's story especially in regards to Patroklos wielding Soul Calibur.

Would you defend Patroklos? Why or why not? If you would, how would you present your case and how successful do you think it would be? If you choose not to defend him, what would you do instead?

PS: We're ignoring the blatant deus ex machina in the form of Soul Calibur's out of nowhere time travel ability.

Also, limit reliance on the Art book and focus on the games.
 

DrakeAldan

Follow the rules!
He's a giant dork. That's what makes the character.

He sailed past "anti-hero" right into "insufferable %^&*" territory. And they put him on the cover!


If anything, the disappointing part of Story Mode is when he turns alpha, and gets a little too mature a little too quickly.
Just a bit too tropey without enough character development there.
 

ZeroBeat

January 6th
He's a giant dork. That's what makes the character.

He sailed past "anti-hero" right into "insufferable %^&*" territory. And they put him on the cover!


If anything, the disappointing part of Story Mode is when he turns alpha, and gets a little too mature a little too quickly.
Just a bit too tropey without enough character development there.
Its no wonder he got right real quick, he let Zwei beat his ass.
 

Aven Kujo-Gin

[10] Knight
I guess Patroklos is that bad because they wanted for us to feel the change when he move to Alpha Patroklos.
But anyway, you know you can't take most of the story of SCV seriously...
To be honest, the only thing I like about Patroklos is his style.
 

christina22

[09] Warrior
Honestly I would like him to be the next main villain. Also in the next game I think he would get arrested for his crimes of justice.

But I do admit he's hot

While Pyrrha still has that evil arm, she can be that fight against her evil side type hero. Also a destined battle would be Pyrrha vs Pyrrha Omega in her mind.
 
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Gaza Memoria

[10] Knight
I think Patroklos as a character is interesting to say the least. If they we're to keep him I would say have him develop better than he did. Give up Setsuka's style and go back to the Sword and Shield and take what he learned through his changes and attempt to right his wrongs.
 

Zink Imp

[08] Mercenary
I think he had the potential to be incredibly interesting. He's a lot better than Siegfried.
I did get what they ere going for, that he was an ignorant one minded coward that becomes a noble and intelligent person. I wish they gave the game more development time so the story mode would be much better.
 

garjian

[12] Conqueror
Patroklos is a remarkably flawed person, and that's what makes him a potentially interesting character.

I see far more in him than most of the cast... He's modeled himself as some "holy warrior", but he's horrible at it. He's a terrible leader, makes terrible decisions... he's fickle, gullable, nasty all-around, just--the worst person for what he aspires to be.
I don't think the events of Story Mode do the character much justice (shut up.), but this character actually has a personality, likable or not, which is something most of the cast lacks.

So no I wouldn't defend him, and that's exactly why I like him as a character... ... ...compared to the rest of the cast...
 

xxInfernoxx

[09] Warrior
- Ignorance of an obvious evil when it's staring him in the face, when he has part of said evil's power in his very blood.
- Has murdered countless innocent people unprovoked in a quest for misguided vengeance.
- Disrespects friend and foe alike.
- Selfishlessly abandons the organization that gave him a free sword, training and had helped him find his sister.
- Displays a very arrogant and cocky attitude for a so-called "Holy Warrior."
- Cries and whines in denial when his obvious flaws and mistakes are shoved into his face.
- Rejects his sister for reasons beyond her control even after she saved his life .
- Has an obsession with his sister and mother that contains strong undertones of incest.
- Never makes up his own mind on what he wants in his life.
- Is easily led around by anyone and everyone.
- Murders his sister after going through a character arc for the purposes of saving her.
You just summed up all the reasons why I hate him more than any other character.

He's the worst SC character ever, followed by Pyrrha.
 

RWB

[10] Knight
Patroklos was very "endearing" in the story mode and clearly displayed himself as a warrior worthy of Soul Calibur through his heroic and selfless acts like:

- Ignorance of an obvious evil when it's staring him in the face, when he has part of said evil's power in his very blood.

Siegfried did it first, only without that evil in it's blood.

- Has murdered countless innocent people unprovoked in a quest for misguided vengeance.

Siegfried did it first.

- Disrespects friend and foe alike.

Siegfried did it first.

- Selfishlessly abandons the organization that gave him a free sword, training and had helped him find his sister.

Siegfried did the same thing, only he killed the poor bastard he worked for to get his weapon(he believed it was Soul Edge).

- Displays a very arrogant and cocky attitude for a so-called "Holy Warrior."

Uh... Holy warriors are often arrogant in general, due to being chosen by gods and all. Also, Siegfried was even cockier.

- Cries and whines in denial when his obvious flaws and mistakes are shoved into his face.

Siegfried, when his flaws and mistakes were shoved in his face, went so deep in the denial it's insane and killed multiple people because of said denial.

- Rejects his sister for reasons beyond her control even after she saved his life .

Reasons that are made clear in the story and actually do make sense considering how he's lived his life. But hey, let's complain about decent writing!

- Has an obsession with his sister and mother that contains strong undertones of incest.

Siegfried's obsession with his father led him to go so deep into denial he went on a murderous quest for magical sword, during which he gladly murdered innocent people and even those who helped him if he thought it benefitted him.

- Never makes up his own mind on what he wants in his life.

Neither does... Siegfried. After he picked up Soul Edge, he followed it's words, same when he picked up Soul Calibur.

- Is easily led around by anyone and everyone.

...Siegfried's story throughout every game after the first!

- Murders his sister after going through a character arc for the purposes of saving her.

You know, except for that part where he was partly mind-controlled by Soul Calibur. Whoops.


You're a lawyer representing Patroklos in a trial before a Video Game Supreme Court with all of the Soul Calibur guest characters as Jury and Edgemaster as Judge with the prosecution displaying an apparently strong case against Patroklos based on his failures, actions and the overall poor quality of SCV's story especially in regards to Patroklos wielding Soul Calibur.

Would you defend Patroklos? Why or why not? If you would, how would you present your case and how successful do you think it would be? If you choose not to defend him, what would you do instead?

PS: We're ignoring the blatant deus ex machina in the form of Soul Calibur's out of nowhere time travel ability.

Also, limit reliance on the Art book and focus on the games.

Essentially, I deem him a bad character only because he's a retread of a character we already have: Siegfried- only without the actual psychotic nature of Siegfried(instead replaced with story events and backstory that makes what he goes through make some kinda sense).

Patroklos is a better done Siegfried, only a bit too rushed.


It's funny how people think Siegfried is this good character, but Patroklos is scum. Siegfried was Patroklos if he conciously decided "hey it'd be fun to be rob and murder people!".
 

Thaeonblade

[09] Warrior
Essentially, I deem him a bad character only because he's a retread of a character we already have: Siegfried- only without the actual psychotic nature of Siegfried(instead replaced with story events and backstory that makes what he goes through make some kinda sense).

Patroklos is a better done Siegfried, only a bit too rushed.


It's funny how people think Siegfried is this good character, but Patroklos is scum. Siegfried was Patroklos if he conciously decided "hey it'd be fun to be rob and murder people!".
Topic's about Patroklos, not Siegfried.
 

RWB

[10] Knight
Topic's about Patroklos, not Siegfried.
Gee, I wonder how the guy who hates Patroklos completely missed the fact that the entire thing was a comparison.

That was quite clearly a "defense" of Patroklos. Sieg is among the better written characters in SC, and Pat is at worst just slightly worse(certainly better than lolTaki or Mitsurugi).

Also, I do believe I completely destroyed any semblance of Patroklos being the worst in personal character. Every flaw he has, Siegfried has and worse, while Pat actually has some strength of character(which is why he actually conquers Elysium in the story at the end- unlike Siegfried, who 17 years after the blade went dormant, still is doing Elysium's bidding).

Patroklos is among the better written characters in the series, and any negative thing you can say about him can honestly be applied to Siegfried as well, because the main flaw of Patroklos is, again, being a retread of Siegfried.
 

Thaeonblade

[09] Warrior
Gee, I wonder how the guy who hates Patroklos completely missed the fact that the entire thing was a comparison.

That was quite clearly a "defense" of Patroklos. Sieg is among the better written characters in SC, and Pat is at worst just slightly worse(certainly better than lolTaki or Mitsurugi).

Also, I do believe I completely destroyed any semblance of Patroklos being the worst in personal character. Every flaw he has, Siegfried has and worse, while Pat actually has some strength of character(which is why he actually conquers Elysium in the story at the end- unlike Siegfried, who 17 years after the blade went dormant, still is doing Elysium's bidding).

Patroklos is among the better written characters in the series, and any negative thing you can say about him can honestly be applied to Siegfried as well, because the main flaw of Patroklos is, again, being a retread of Siegfried.
A flawed defense that's based in a fundamental strawman.

The topic is about making a specific defense about Patroklos and his actions/attitude. It doesn't matter if other characters did bad things too or had flaws because it doesn't change what Patroklos did.

The fact that the best defense that you can come up with is tearing down another character to make Patroklos look better is on shaky ground. Especially since this is an objectively better character than Patroklos for many reasons. So I'll break down why comparing Pat. to Sieg and stating that Pat. is better doesn't work on objective and subjective grounds.

First, let's address your list:

- Ignorance of an obvious evil when it's staring him in the face, when he has part of said evil's power in his very blood.

Siegfried did it first, only without that evil in it's blood.

Siegfried was also looking for the damned sword in the first place. As you also pointed out, Sieg wasn't malfested at the time, so Sieg is doubly-justified.

- Has murdered countless innocent people unprovoked in a quest for misguided vengeance.

Siegfried did it first.

Your point? He also murdered those people to power Soul Edge as Nightmare. He also later hated himself for what he did and didn't shy away from responsibility.

- Disrespects friend and foe alike.

Siegfried did it first.

He got a lot better later on. I also recall that he just ditched his old mercenary band till V, he didn't violently murder them and get a time travel reset button. (which was also absent when he killed his father, oh look! good writing!)

- Selfishlessly abandons the organization that gave him a free sword, training and had helped him find his sister.

Siegfried did the same thing, only he killed the poor bastard he worked for to get his weapon(he believed it was Soul Edge).

Sieg wasn't designated as the hero at the time and he was always going to kill that guy in the first place. Again, Sieg wasn't a good guy at the time, so the comparison here is pointless.

- Displays a very arrogant and cocky attitude for a so-called "Holy Warrior."

Uh... Holy warriors are often arrogant in general, due to being chosen by gods and all. Also, Siegfried was even cockier.

Sieg is not a holy warrior, so the comparison here makes no sense. And again, Sieg grew up. He even goes as far as to isolate himself from love and attachment in IV because he doesn't want anyone to be attached to his curse nor to be harmed by the consequences of his sins.

- Cries and whines in denial when his obvious flaws and mistakes are shoved into his face.

Siegfried, when his flaws and mistakes were shoved in his face, went so deep in the denial it's insane and killed multiple people because of said denial.

That was only when he unknowingly murdered his father (doesn't justify anything, but his reaction is justified here) and again, he later admits that what he did was wrong and works to atone for it. In fact, part of why he murdered all of those people was to revive his father, it was not out of denial. He also didn't whine about it, he went into a genuine search through his soul.

- Rejects his sister for reasons beyond her control even after she saved his life .

Reasons that are made clear in the story and actually do make sense considering how he's lived his life. But hey, let's complain about decent writing!

Except that Pat's love for his sister was his only redeeming quality and he pisses on it by threatening said-sister three times. Also, he later murders her and gets a time travel reset button right out of nowhere because this story is terrible.

- Has an obsession with his sister and mother that contains strong undertones of incest.

Siegfried's obsession with his father led him to go so deep into denial he went on a murderous quest for magical sword, during which he gladly murdered innocent people and even those who helped him if he thought it benefitted him.

Never denied, except there are no undertones of incest present.

- Never makes up his own mind on what he wants in his life.

Neither does... Siegfried. After he picked up Soul Edge, he followed it's words, same when he picked up Soul Calibur.

Actually, Soul Calibur was silent in III when he vowed to atone for his sins by destroying Soul Edge. (A vow that he'd made in I after that Xianghua fight, but it's only in III when he's really able to make good on his word)

- Is easily led around by anyone and everyone.

...Siegfried's story throughout every game after the first!

Sieg chose to go after Soul Edge and use it for evil; He later chose to fight against it and failed; When given a chance, he chose to wield Soul Calibur to destroy Soul Edge. I don't see where you're coming from here. I can see a case for Soul Calibur influencing Sieg in IV, but he appears to have been strong-willed enough to not let it turn the world into crystal and still beat Nightmare.

- Murders his sister after going through a character arc for the purposes of saving her.

You know, except for that part where he was partly mind-controlled by Soul Calibur. Whoops.

Thanks for making Sieg much better by comparison, I think we can see whose the stronger-willed wielder here. Also, I thought Pat was also going through his character arc to be his own man? Then follow that nonsense up with that time travel bs as well? The guilt of murdering his father will never leave Siegfried and again he didn't get a time travel reset button. (Yes, I bring this up a lot because it has a point)

Sieg's backstory and reasons for being evil make sense and has a good grounding for character development that is actually utilized throughout the series. He starts out as a villainous anti-hero at worst in Soul Blade, becomes a villain/anti-hero (depending on the timeline) in I and II, and becomes a good guy in III and stays that way.

As it stands, Patroklos' story is so full of contrivances (again, the time travel deus ex machina) and bs that any development that the brat does go through (artificial though it is) really has no legitimatcy. Not to mention that it appears that the writers tried to take Sieg's story, put it in acceleration and cram all of it into one game and failed horribly.

Mainly because Patroklos having soul calibur is a contrivance in of itself (SCII weapon profile, Soul Calibur is only meant to respond to the pure hearted and strong willed, Pat is neither of these things; Not to mention that Pat is malfested and that should be getting worst because of his negative actions and attitude, but it doesn't because plot no jutsu. PS: Don't care what the art book says about this) and the writers fail to give us anything likable about this brat without having him ruin it himself.

In short, if you were Patroklos' lawyer and comparing him to Siegfried is your best defense for the case? You would fail.
 

RWB

[10] Knight
The fact that the best defense that you can come up with is tearing down another character to make Patroklos look better is on shaky ground. Especially since this is an objectively better character than Patroklos for many reasons. So I'll break down why comparing Pat. to Sieg and stating that Pat. is better doesn't work on objective and subjective grounds.

When people try to throw out "objectively better" when talking about subjective stories... yeah. Also, "tearing down another character" only applies if being compared to Patroklos is by itself is tearing them down. I put each on equal ground, and Pat does not come off as worse.


Siegfried was also looking for the damned sword in the first place. As you also pointed out, Sieg wasn't malfested at the time, so Sieg is doubly-justified.

Siegfried fought the evil spirit of the sword yet still didn't figure out the sword was evil. Patroklos was faced with a reasonable, if ruthless, nobleman.

You don't have an argument. Sieg was not justified at all.



Your point? He also murdered those people to power Soul Edge as Nightmare. He also later hated himself for what he did and didn't shy away from responsibility.

The murders were done prior to Soul Edge influenced him, and it's never been implied that he regretted anything from the period before
Soul Edge possessed him outside the murder of his father.

- Disrespects friend and foe alike.

Siegfried did it first.

He got a lot better later on. I also recall that he just ditched his old mercenary band till V, he didn't violently murder them and get a time travel reset button. (which was also absent when he killed his father, oh look! good writing!)

Funny fact, Patroklos also got better at it, but I suppose you missed that. Also, Siegfried ditched said party because he ran away like a scared child and never met up with them again. But please, tell me how he would've refrained from killing the Schwarzwind while possessed by Soul Edge- oh right, he wouldn't.

Also, I agree on the time travel being stupid, so I have no dog in that fight. It's not a problem with Patroklos though, it's a problem with the bigger plot.


Sieg wasn't designated as the hero at the time and he was always going to kill that guy in the first place. Again, Sieg wasn't a good guy at the time, so the comparison here is pointless.

And somehow you missed the fact that Patroklos was supposed to be a villain when this game started out, just like how Siegfried was in Edge?



That was only when he unknowingly murdered his father (doesn't justify anything, but his reaction is justified here) and again, he later admits that what he did was wrong and works to atone for it. In fact, part of why he murdered all of those people was to revive his father, it was not out of denial. He also didn't whine about it, he went into a genuine search through his soul.

No, he works to atone for what he did under the sway of the sword. His murderous quest to get it is not even an afterthought with him.
Reasons that are made clear in the story and actually do make sense considering how he's lived his life. But hey, let's complain about decent writing!

Except that Pat's love for his sister was his only redeeming quality and he pisses on it by threatening said-sister three times. Also, he later murders her and gets a time travel reset button right out of nowhere because this story is terrible.

Gee, it's almost like he was raised to believe malfested were evil or something. OH WAIT.
"He later murders her"- under mind control, and it's notable that unlike every other good guy with an opinion on Pyrrha, he is the only one that doesn't want her killed.


Never denied, except there are no undertones of incest present.

Except the fact that Siegfried's obsession with his father is more blatant than Pat's towards Sophitia, and can easily be seen as incestual if you want. If you are not arguing that Pats obsession with Sophitia is, I can pretty much accept it. Pyrrha is more notably incestuous.

Actually, Soul Calibur was silent in III when he vowed to atone for his sins by destroying Soul Edge. (A vow that he'd made in I after that Xianghua fight, but it's only in III when he's really able to make good on his word)

Oh, nice, he managed to make one choice. Good. It's almost like Patroklos had this whole plotline where he was the only one who didn't want to kill his sister while everyone else wanted him to.

Sieg chose to go after Soul Edge and use it for evil; He later chose to fight against it and failed; When given a chance, he chose to wield Soul Calibur to destroy Soul Edge. I don't see where you're coming from here. I can see a case for Soul Calibur influencing Sieg in IV, but he appears to have been strong-willed enough to not let it turn the world into crystal and still beat Nightmare.

Soul Calibur only didn't manage to make him do that because it went dormant at the end of IV. Let's not forget he's still a servant to the sword 17 years later. Patroklos was never led around by the nose once he left Dumas, so yeah, Sieg is actually worse than Pat.

Thanks for making Sieg much better by comparison, I think we can see whose the stronger-willed wielder here. Also, I thought Pat was also going through his character arc to be his own man? Then follow that nonsense up with that time travel bs as well? The guilt of murdering his father will never leave Siegfried and again he didn't get a time travel reset button. (Yes, I bring this up a lot because it has a point)

Because Sieg was not at all a slave to Soul Edge for a long time(and arguably even longer to Calibur), while Pat got taken over for all of a few minutes. And again, the reset button is bullshit, I agree. Pat has a much stronger will.


Sieg's backstory and reasons for being evil make sense and has a good grounding for character development that is actually utilized throughout the series. He starts out as a villainous anti-hero at worst in Soul Blade, becomes a villain/anti-hero (depending on the timeline) in I and II, and becomes a good guy in III and stays that way.

1. Pat is also set up as a villain at the beginning.
2. Sieg is only ever a true hero in 3. In 4, he becomes a Knight Templar controlled by SC.


As it stands, Patroklos' story is so full of contrivances (again, the time travel deus ex machina) and bs that any development that the brat does go through (artificial though it is) really has no legitimatcy.

I honestly agree to a degree on the contrivances, but I don't think it impacts negatively on Patroklos himself, it just ruins the sense of story in the game itself.

Not to mention that it appears that the writers tried to take Sieg's story, put it in acceleration and cram all of it into one game and failed horribly.


I agree partly, except I really don't think Sieg's story is particularly good in the first place. It's one of the best in SC because SC has always been crap in the story department.

Mainly because Patroklos having soul calibur is a contrivance in of itself (SCII weapon profile, Soul Calibur is only meant to respond to the pure hearted and strong willed, Pat is neither of these things; Not to mention that Pat is malfested and that should be getting worst because of his negative actions and attitude, but it doesn't because plot no jutsu. PS: Don't care what the art book says about this)
'

"Soul Calibur is only meant to respond to the pure hearted and strong willed"

And yet the man who was a psychotic murderer even without Soul Edge and easily controlled wielded it. I'd argue we take the plot of the games before statements from a weapon profile that was from before SC was established to be evil in it's own way(Order as opposed to Chaos). Primary Canon>Secondary Canon and all that jazz.

and the writers fail to give us anything likable about this brat without having him ruin it himself.


Except his love for his sister which he never really ruins because the only moment when he really does something bad about it is completely justified, and the second one not even being him but Soul Calibur.

In short, if you were Patroklos' lawyer and comparing him to Siegfried is your best defense for the case? You would fail.

Nah, not even close. You just decided to hate a character and want to continue hating him even though he's no worse than a character you like.
Thank you.