Death_Emperor_X
[10] Knight
Good luck; I sure had it happen to me while playing Legendary Souls. Like I said, I'm not entirely sure if a player can do it, but if a cpu can, I feel as if players can too.
Discussion about Just Guard
- Thread starter jtdam09
- Start date
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Mage
I'll make you submit!
I was kidding, it's not possible to press G and remain on the floor.
Wandrian
I don't know.
I'm okay with it personally. I'm not pleased that one of my two characters can barely get a poke out of it asides from against very specific moves post-JG and is pretty much obliterated by it done well by anyone, but I can still get past it with a modicum of effort against fellow online warriors. Since you don't see tourneys being won/lost by JG alone and you don't constantly see tourney players bitching about how overpowered JG is, I doubt it's too different at higher levels than online play since it's going to be harder to JG someone that's smart enough to expect you to try it.
Death_Emperor_X
[10] Knight
I hope so, it'd be pretty bs if they can.
Schneider-X
[11] Champion
I don't like JG in its current state right now. I really don't agree with how the amount of advantage you get off of it varies depending on the move. It shouldn't outright shutdown moves that are safe on block but are extremely disadvantaged on JG. Things like NM 1[A] and Siegfried B4. I'd like it to be more like Blazblue's where you are given set amount of advantage for a successful instant block. Eg: Pyrrha's 66B BE on JG wouldn't give a guaranteed stab and would only be an advantage situation for her. This prevents scenarios where a character's basic poking tools lead to a launcher on JG.
If it were to stay the same with the variable amount of advantage on JG, I feel like there should be more risk to it when you attempt it like locking throw breaks as stated earlier. Removing just the following aspects of JG would make me incredibly happy as a player.
If it were to stay the same with the variable amount of advantage on JG, I feel like there should be more risk to it when you attempt it like locking throw breaks as stated earlier. Removing just the following aspects of JG would make me incredibly happy as a player.
NDK
[12] Conqueror
I think JG needs to be tweaked in some way, sure its a necessity when going against Asta-like moves, but it feels a bit unbalanced against string based characters like Maxi. Also, I have to say, this site can be kind of a joke when someone like Garjian can come in and make intelligent, non-flaming counter arguments but since he doesn't go to tournaments or get a high rate of "likes" het gets blown off and trolled.
NDK
[12] Conqueror
And stop liking my post!
- Moderator
- #68
IAdoreBunnies
[10] Knight
If you ask me, JG was the best addition to the game mechanics that SCV brought. It allows you to guard unblockables like Ivy's 6A + B, break attacks like Astaroth's 44(A), and to prevent further damage to your guard when it is about to break. It gives you a chance, but a chance that requires skillful execution. Plus it's just a good, alternative defensive option. I think it's dumb to allow Astaroth to spam 44(A) back to back with only the ability to GI it (which costs meter) or to guess if he's going to charge it or do it regularly. And requiring GI's to require meter was an EXCELLENT idea. How easy did it use to be in previous Soul Caliburs to just throw out a GI and get yourself out of a sticky situation? The reward factor wasn't balanced with the risks. Having it require meter does two things. It forces you think about meter management, and it's not something you can just throw out at any time, especially if you don't have meter. It also puts an end to two players constantly guard impacting each other back to back as one of them will eventually run out of meter first. One change that I don't like is that the GI in SCV repels lows, mids, and highs. Not only is it easier to pull off a GI in SCV, but I think that the timing doesn't even have to be as strict as it used to be. But hey, it does require METER, which JG doesn't, so that somewhat balances it's use. I can't say the current design is perfect, but the defensive mechanics are decent. However, I do think think that JG could be improved upon. JG'ing is too easy when you have a combo string memorized, and it allows for better punishment than a GI, because of how the negative frames on it work. GI's don't usually guarantee punishment unless you follow up with a CE (and they cost meter). Let's take Raphael's 6BB BE, for example. The last hit is so easily memorized and reactable, like many other attack sequences. Why should a JG, which is just as easy to pull off against such a hit as a GI that costs meter give you better punishment options? I would make it to where the JG does give the blocker advantage, but to where it doesn't enable you to punish the attacks it blocks. I think that JG should only be usable on first attacks, meaning you can't start JG'ing during the subsequent attacks in combo strings. However, if you JG the first attack in a string, I think you should be able to JG the subsequent attacks. Now THAT takes skillful execution.
IAdoreBunnies
[10] Knight
A lot of people on this site exhibit the exact behavior you are talking about. I see it all the time.
IdleMind
BANNED FOREVER
Something to consider when discussing JG which have not been brought up yet.
Concept: What JG actually does/how it works will affect how it changes and is able to be changed.
So, how does JG work? Well, JG removes Blockstun frames. Blockstun frames are the frames where the game "pauses" your character as a result of blocking a move. Just to give you an example:
Lets take theoretical move X. Theoretical move X is an i20 mid. The move is +5 on hit and -10 on block. How does it arrive at those numbers? Well the move takes 20 frames from input to impact, hence i20. From there it breaks down to hit or block.
On hit, the attacker has 15 Recovery Frames, i.e. the time it takes for a player to return to a neutral state where the game accepts inputs from him. So, if the Hitstun (the length of the animation the person getting hit must go through before the game accepts inputs from him) on the move was 20 frames, the attacker recovers 5 frames faster.
On block, the impact happens at i15. From there, the attacker has 15 Recovery Frames (frames before the game accepts inputs from him again, note how this is the same as the recovery frames on hit) and the person on block has 5 Blockstun (frames where the game will not accept inputs from them due to the condition of guarding) frames. This gives the attacker a -10 on block.
So, what if the opponent JG's? Well, the game still counts a JG as a guard, so we go back to the above example. The difference is, we remove the Blockstun frames from the equation by a certain amount (the exact amount or all, I am not certain of. I do not know how many frames the JG "flash" eats up, for example). It is however, a relatively consistent amount.
The gist of what I am trying to say here is, the way the system is designed is going to favor characters with strong punishes regardless, unless they alter the blockstun frames of every single move to tweak it, and the tweaks will have an effect on how the game works, especially with regards to reading and reacting.
Take Mitsu, for example. JGing his pokes means very little because the pokes are safe and have very little blockstun. 1B for example can be used in succession even if it is minus on block because the amount of time you have to read and react (i.e. the attackers recovery frames and the blockers blockstun frames) are very short. If we were to increase the blockstun on this poke to make them more punishable on JG, we would be removing the utility of 1B's other functions.
The point is, it's not just as easy as changing some minor numbers. The systems are correlated, and only a complete system overhaul on the way frames work can change that.
Concept: What JG actually does/how it works will affect how it changes and is able to be changed.
So, how does JG work? Well, JG removes Blockstun frames. Blockstun frames are the frames where the game "pauses" your character as a result of blocking a move. Just to give you an example:
Lets take theoretical move X. Theoretical move X is an i20 mid. The move is +5 on hit and -10 on block. How does it arrive at those numbers? Well the move takes 20 frames from input to impact, hence i20. From there it breaks down to hit or block.
On hit, the attacker has 15 Recovery Frames, i.e. the time it takes for a player to return to a neutral state where the game accepts inputs from him. So, if the Hitstun (the length of the animation the person getting hit must go through before the game accepts inputs from him) on the move was 20 frames, the attacker recovers 5 frames faster.
On block, the impact happens at i15. From there, the attacker has 15 Recovery Frames (frames before the game accepts inputs from him again, note how this is the same as the recovery frames on hit) and the person on block has 5 Blockstun (frames where the game will not accept inputs from them due to the condition of guarding) frames. This gives the attacker a -10 on block.
So, what if the opponent JG's? Well, the game still counts a JG as a guard, so we go back to the above example. The difference is, we remove the Blockstun frames from the equation by a certain amount (the exact amount or all, I am not certain of. I do not know how many frames the JG "flash" eats up, for example). It is however, a relatively consistent amount.
The gist of what I am trying to say here is, the way the system is designed is going to favor characters with strong punishes regardless, unless they alter the blockstun frames of every single move to tweak it, and the tweaks will have an effect on how the game works, especially with regards to reading and reacting.
The point is, it's not just as easy as changing some minor numbers. The systems are correlated, and only a complete system overhaul on the way frames work can change that.
- Moderator
- #72
Heaton
A Soul in the Purgatory
To underscore the above point:
I fucking hate Just Guard and think it was a terrible idea.
However, I recognize that the game is now built with Just Guard being an option in every situation, and that to remove Just Guard - or even slightly tweak it - will have repercussions that I seriously doubt anyone, let alone those who have thought on this problem, will be able to see coming.
Here's an example. Remember how during the first month or so, Xeph raped everyone with Astaroth 44(A)? Then people caught on to the timing and how to Just Guard it, and Xeph went and learned something else? Now imagine if there was no Just Guard - the number of characters that have a consistent counter drops from all of them to very few, and now you have to learn another character just to deal with Astaroth.
I fucking hate Just Guard and think it was a terrible idea.
However, I recognize that the game is now built with Just Guard being an option in every situation, and that to remove Just Guard - or even slightly tweak it - will have repercussions that I seriously doubt anyone, let alone those who have thought on this problem, will be able to see coming.
Here's an example. Remember how during the first month or so, Xeph raped everyone with Astaroth 44(A)? Then people caught on to the timing and how to Just Guard it, and Xeph went and learned something else? Now imagine if there was no Just Guard - the number of characters that have a consistent counter drops from all of them to very few, and now you have to learn another character just to deal with Astaroth.
Syn_SC
[10] Knight
A word of advice, don't discuss risk/rwward until you understand what it actually means. By defenition the mechanic includes additional risks and carries extra rewards than playing without.
Also you cannot get a JG in a grounded state. You can JG out of techtraps, but this is a 1 frame window which incidentally just alters your subsequent oki mixup in that situation. Also, in casuals and tournament, noone has eger done this to me.
FleshMasher
[13] Hero
Being *theoretically* able to punish 80% of your command list with A:6?
Check
Anyway:
I have a question about Back Turned JG.
Is it possible?
I tried to JG one of Xiba's Asura thingies, he hopped around me and i couldn't JG the last attack as i was BT, tried very often in Practice Mode.
CPU looks like BT JG sometimes, like Dex said.
Has it been done?
What i miss about old GIs:
High/Low was actually a mix up.
I, of course don't want JG to be touched at all.
But if you want JG riskier you could, maybe add a recovery on whiff (when you miss the JG)
Even though that already comes physically because you have to let go of block for a (very)short time.
JG is much safer on whiff than GI which annoys me, because that in addition to the Meter Cost makes GI a little bad for me. But i'd rather buff GI than nerfing JG.
Well where was i?
JG.
You could look if your Character has Scramblers, some Attacks Jam up successful JGs or the movement/stance of the Just Guarding character.
Still getting used to low JG, does someone use that in tournaments?
Check
Anyway:
I have a question about Back Turned JG.
Is it possible?
I tried to JG one of Xiba's Asura thingies, he hopped around me and i couldn't JG the last attack as i was BT, tried very often in Practice Mode.
CPU looks like BT JG sometimes, like Dex said.
Has it been done?
What i miss about old GIs:
High/Low was actually a mix up.
I, of course don't want JG to be touched at all.
But if you want JG riskier you could, maybe add a recovery on whiff (when you miss the JG)
Even though that already comes physically because you have to let go of block for a (very)short time.
JG is much safer on whiff than GI which annoys me, because that in addition to the Meter Cost makes GI a little bad for me. But i'd rather buff GI than nerfing JG.
Well where was i?
JG.
You could look if your Character has Scramblers, some Attacks Jam up successful JGs or the movement/stance of the Just Guarding character.
Still getting used to low JG, does someone use that in tournaments?
- Admin
- #75
Party Wolf
Administrator
Yes BT JG is possible FleshMasher
Syn_SC
[10] Knight
Pfft 80%. Try 100% like mine is against most of the cast. :P
LP
Premium Member
I think JG is the best addition to the game and fits perfectly within SC5. I've only read one of NDK's post and, as such, am going to argue against the points made by one of the people he thinks had very good points
I'm going to take this as a summary of your points.
1. It's bad because it breaks natural combos.
First, I think you mean "strings" as JGing...nothing hits a natural combo (a natural combo is a string of attacks wherein the following attacks are guaranteed after the first one). Secondly, it doesn't 'break' strings any more than ducking, stepping, GIing, or jumping. What I'm guessing you're talking about is jailed strings, which is where I can only say that SC is not and has never been a string based fighter. Most of the strings in SC are already bad in one or multiple ways if you do them on block. The only exception is the standard AA and BB, where most of them are barely punishable. What I'm saying is that I doubt that are many, if any, strings in the game outside of your standard AA and BB that could have not otherwise been countered in some way. In all actuality, JG also gives some characters who otherwise cannot deal with strings like NM's 22AA without meter to GI, the ability to not be helpless.
2. It makes just about every attack in the game punishable.
This is true but character dependent. But the fact that there varying attack speeds, high/mids and lows, and throws make it so that this a barely a factor.
3. Can be done at any time.
I'm going to assume this is hyperbole.
4. Carries no risk.
This is absolutely untrue as far as I'm concerned and I think you should elaborate on this because there are so many different ways that statement could be applied to this argument and just as many ways that it can be wrong.
5. It makes unblockables and slow attacks useless.
This is completely untrue. Show me a slow attack that wasn't useless before JG. Since we seem to be talking about at least somewhat competent play here, the only unblockable I can say lost effectiveness with JG is the one where Ivy walks backwards and does the long-ranged mid. What I'm saying, basically, is that these unblockables were never useful to begin with. Not only that, if your opponent is JGing every unblockable, in many cases, they open themselves up to a mid/low/throw mixup because the good majority of unblockables can be canceled (this is why many unblockables are still stepped and/or interrupted).
As for the slow attacks, what attacks, that aren't completely telegraphed, have been shut down by JGing (and would have otherwise been shut down by GIing or stepping or ducking or jumping?)? Things like Mitsu's 66A+B and 236B hold are still being used.
6. Astaroth.
You're simplifying the argument too much. I will discuss both of those attacks.
44A:
First of all, should this attack be able to be applied the way you're saying it should? It is still very good post GI, the hold. Not only that, but Astaroth has three different speeds for this attack. Are you mad that an attack like Astaroth 44A hold is not able to be abused in more situations (in this case, neutral)? In the case of this hold, this risk to it becomes as big as the potential reward only, thus making it less 'spammable' and able to only be applied in certain situations effectively, like most attacks in the game.
BB6:
First of all, let us look at the stem of this string in not one string in particular. After Ast's B, he has two different strings, B and B6. Let's look at what happens if your opponent JGs BB6 for BB6 in both scenarios.
BB6: Your opponent JG's and you're at -13, AA punished in most cases.
BB: Your opponent's JG MISSES. If they're vigilant and catch that they missed the JG, they eat some guard damage and you're at -10 but, with how much pushback Ast's BB has, you're effectively put back to neutral in most cases, where you can play the spacing game, continue to attack, etc.
Now, let's look FURTHER into this. Let's say I pick on the fact that my is JGing my BB6 and AAing or mixing me up everytime. I'm tired of that ish! So, you know what, I'm going to give him a taste of his own medicine! So, the next time, I do B and then...wait for it...I don't finish the string! My opponent's at a lost! He lost his frames so it's time to mix him up! I'mma get some big damage! I go for a throw, but, shit! This guy's fast and 2A's me! I'm back to blocking again.
Still, I gained some good knowledge. I notice my opponent is pretty predictable with his responses. So, I've got the advantage this time. I single B...my predictable friend does an option select JG into 2A and then mashes out some other ish because he thinks he's got the situation under control....but he forgot about my fuckin' bullrush BE! I take my halflife wall combo real quick real fast.
Next time, my predictable friend is scared after I single B and trying to respect it more but he pulls a bitch move and tries to step and throw out a tech crouching attack. It don't matter though, because I listened to that LP guy and I'm ahead of the game. I stop my B, then I 4B, beating him out because he lost frames just like he would due to JGing. Now I'm at plus frames so you know I get my throw action going! By then, my predictable friend is out of chances...as I guessed right twice with Asta and won the round. Next round, who knows where these things will take us?
This is a very important concept we (and at least I call) leading. Look at some high level SC some time. You'll notice highlevel players eating lower level players up by leading them while at the same time making it hard for them to get a read on them by varying their responses. I know, for a fact, in Hawkeye and my own match where I used Pat and he Natsu, I picked up on the fact that, after every 44A I did, he would AA me to stop me from continuing my attack. So, what did I do? I waiting for a spot where I needed to make up some damage, 44A...then...DRIFT STRIKE! or Pat's B+K for the win.
This is what SC is all about and JG just adds another layer to a beautiful mindgame in most cases.
I'm going to take this as a summary of your points.
1. It's bad because it breaks natural combos.
First, I think you mean "strings" as JGing...nothing hits a natural combo (a natural combo is a string of attacks wherein the following attacks are guaranteed after the first one). Secondly, it doesn't 'break' strings any more than ducking, stepping, GIing, or jumping. What I'm guessing you're talking about is jailed strings, which is where I can only say that SC is not and has never been a string based fighter. Most of the strings in SC are already bad in one or multiple ways if you do them on block. The only exception is the standard AA and BB, where most of them are barely punishable. What I'm saying is that I doubt that are many, if any, strings in the game outside of your standard AA and BB that could have not otherwise been countered in some way. In all actuality, JG also gives some characters who otherwise cannot deal with strings like NM's 22AA without meter to GI, the ability to not be helpless.
2. It makes just about every attack in the game punishable.
This is true but character dependent. But the fact that there varying attack speeds, high/mids and lows, and throws make it so that this a barely a factor.
3. Can be done at any time.
I'm going to assume this is hyperbole.
4. Carries no risk.
This is absolutely untrue as far as I'm concerned and I think you should elaborate on this because there are so many different ways that statement could be applied to this argument and just as many ways that it can be wrong.
5. It makes unblockables and slow attacks useless.
This is completely untrue. Show me a slow attack that wasn't useless before JG. Since we seem to be talking about at least somewhat competent play here, the only unblockable I can say lost effectiveness with JG is the one where Ivy walks backwards and does the long-ranged mid. What I'm saying, basically, is that these unblockables were never useful to begin with. Not only that, if your opponent is JGing every unblockable, in many cases, they open themselves up to a mid/low/throw mixup because the good majority of unblockables can be canceled (this is why many unblockables are still stepped and/or interrupted).
As for the slow attacks, what attacks, that aren't completely telegraphed, have been shut down by JGing (and would have otherwise been shut down by GIing or stepping or ducking or jumping?)? Things like Mitsu's 66A+B and 236B hold are still being used.
6. Astaroth.
You're simplifying the argument too much. I will discuss both of those attacks.
44A:
First of all, should this attack be able to be applied the way you're saying it should? It is still very good post GI, the hold. Not only that, but Astaroth has three different speeds for this attack. Are you mad that an attack like Astaroth 44A hold is not able to be abused in more situations (in this case, neutral)? In the case of this hold, this risk to it becomes as big as the potential reward only, thus making it less 'spammable' and able to only be applied in certain situations effectively, like most attacks in the game.
BB6:
First of all, let us look at the stem of this string in not one string in particular. After Ast's B, he has two different strings, B and B6. Let's look at what happens if your opponent JGs BB6 for BB6 in both scenarios.
BB6: Your opponent JG's and you're at -13, AA punished in most cases.
BB: Your opponent's JG MISSES. If they're vigilant and catch that they missed the JG, they eat some guard damage and you're at -10 but, with how much pushback Ast's BB has, you're effectively put back to neutral in most cases, where you can play the spacing game, continue to attack, etc.
Now, let's look FURTHER into this. Let's say I pick on the fact that my is JGing my BB6 and AAing or mixing me up everytime. I'm tired of that ish! So, you know what, I'm going to give him a taste of his own medicine! So, the next time, I do B and then...wait for it...I don't finish the string! My opponent's at a lost! He lost his frames so it's time to mix him up! I'mma get some big damage! I go for a throw, but, shit! This guy's fast and 2A's me! I'm back to blocking again.
Still, I gained some good knowledge. I notice my opponent is pretty predictable with his responses. So, I've got the advantage this time. I single B...my predictable friend does an option select JG into 2A and then mashes out some other ish because he thinks he's got the situation under control....but he forgot about my fuckin' bullrush BE! I take my halflife wall combo real quick real fast.
Next time, my predictable friend is scared after I single B and trying to respect it more but he pulls a bitch move and tries to step and throw out a tech crouching attack. It don't matter though, because I listened to that LP guy and I'm ahead of the game. I stop my B, then I 4B, beating him out because he lost frames just like he would due to JGing. Now I'm at plus frames so you know I get my throw action going! By then, my predictable friend is out of chances...as I guessed right twice with Asta and won the round. Next round, who knows where these things will take us?
This is a very important concept we (and at least I call) leading. Look at some high level SC some time. You'll notice highlevel players eating lower level players up by leading them while at the same time making it hard for them to get a read on them by varying their responses. I know, for a fact, in Hawkeye and my own match where I used Pat and he Natsu, I picked up on the fact that, after every 44A I did, he would AA me to stop me from continuing my attack. So, what did I do? I waiting for a spot where I needed to make up some damage, 44A...then...DRIFT STRIKE! or Pat's B+K for the win.
This is what SC is all about and JG just adds another layer to a beautiful mindgame in most cases.
FleshMasher
[13] Hero
@Party Wolf: Got a video?
@Syn: We got to do some matches!
Back to topic: Just Gaurds? What is this???
@Syn: We got to do some matches!
Back to topic: Just Gaurds? What is this???
LP
Premium Member
Lol. I wish you couldn't JG Viola's 8A+B now that I think about it. Would spam the shit out of it against people who don't know how to step it.
Oh yeah, I forgot the part where my Apprentice Asta JG's the opponent's OS and then goes for a throw mixup, making his Ast a helluva lot scarier.
Oh yeah, I forgot the part where my Apprentice Asta JG's the opponent's OS and then goes for a throw mixup, making his Ast a helluva lot scarier.
Syn_SC
[10] Knight
With unblockables you forgot Yoshi SDGF B and turning suicide, these are important JGs to learn imo.
@ Fleshmasher
WGCCannes runback, let's go! ^_^
@ Fleshmasher
WGCCannes runback, let's go! ^_^
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