=== Gatsu wannabe good CaS Guide ==== (aka how to create quality shit)

- Start with a brief backstory. It doesn't have to be anything spectacular (that would be Mary and Gary Stu territory), but don't make it boring as rocks either. It just needs to be something that would justify what your character is and what he stands for.

Yes but what i mean is, talking straight about chara design, usually you don't need more than text 3 lines
Even official SC characters, you can brutally summarize theyr bio in 3 lines, and still theyr chara design complete the job

Then in addition... well, is an addition,add what you want :D

My point was simply that there is no wall text (no matter how big,heavy and eventually boring) that can save a poor chara design from being weak :D


ps: extreme kudos for being the first to say to do some fucking google research,very important thing (not only of chara design,also for design overall)
 
Geralt example is partially right(example many colours don't necessary mean "error"),but keep in mind that western design follow different rules compared to Japanese,specially if more realistic oriented
Not better or worse(obvious everyone have his tastes),but simply sometimes what work well for a western game don't work as well under japanese style "rules", same if you switch sides

Yeah, personal taste is a huge part of design. A lot of designs from Western and Eastern games would probably look horrible if switched, but there are a few that manage to blend well regardless of origin. Ezio looks perfect in SC, even though he's a western character.

Likewise, it could fail miserably. Including someone who's blatantly designed for a setting made by a certain developer can backfire. Spawn in Soul Calibur...Ehhhhh.
 
1- Look Pocky,on this i'm not talking about teens (on reality yes,but not theyr "creations"), i'm talking about the PRO
And not about MK style lol "chara design",i say why even GREAT chara designers product meh stuff sometimes?
Build your reply with 3 words: internet - marketing - globalization (if you want a bonus one "reverse creative process" :D)

2- Good, but less deep and less focused on the single ones: the cast,as a whole
You have them all together and you do a group picture,what make that cast a good one?


For one, no comment. =)

For two, I usually kick certain characters and/or demote them into side characters when I feel their purpose is not needed. For instance, I kicked Mi-sun from the main cast because her role in the cast was weak. Once she found a lover, it's the end for her. I made a daughter since she's the new generation that just wants to have fun travelling and is curious about the unknown.

But the main reason I kicked Mi-sun is she doesn't really care for the swords and fighting that much. She fights but she's the typical girl that will replaced. And not to mention, there's not much korean equipment or Ming-ish empire stuff to put on her. With her daughter who happens to have korean and chinese(thanks to Mi-sun) and japanese(her father) in her, I can pretty much make her wear any asian attire as long as it suits her......I'm just kinda stuck at what kinda warrior should I call her lol....

Everyone else have their reasons why they travel.

Rei the japanese ninja seeks wisdom
Claudas the french knight and Deming chinese monk seek fame
Arnora the viking seeks knowledge on her enemies like Fujo
Fujo the african assassin is just a manipulator
Alfonso the spanish pirate seeks riches
Yaretzi the aztec warrior seeks peace
Baichu the mongol seeks to rule the world
I also have a man named Thorello who is a gladiator from rome who seeks freedom


In general, they all have their reasons yet the swords of course tie them together in terms of......curiousity and/or greed. I kick the characters if I feel I can't form good enough ideas of fashion. Story is not super hard since I can always band-aid it. Side characters are basically just extras for story freaks. Otherwise, I have everyone travel and meet.

I mean, look at Kilik. They add him in but they can pull up a good story of why he's there. Algol is Mitsurugi's purpose of why Mitsurugi returns. Basically, I personally think it's best to have characters benefit for each other. As for fashion? Trial and error is my middle name.
 
I'll go with " How to create SoulCalibourish chara design?" then

The best one probably :D

Ok,let's go
To create something stylistically fitting,is all about understand the creative process behind yet existing official character and then apply it for yours.
Trying to summarize it a list of design factors that must be considered can be

-cultural/origin ispiration, basically chose a solid figure of some specific tradition
random example: i want do a central african character and i chose to make him as a proud tribal warrior, a fearless hunter, a wise shaman.
As life long fan of SF and of classic first chapters of SC i love that way, as i said about clichè the real challenge is turn something apparently banal into something with a soul,and when you achieve it you get char like Mitsu or Sieg,huge pillars of SC. They take a visual ROLE in addition of theyr uniqueness as character

-Or i can chose to break the rule above to make things a lil bit more unexpected,but to keep it cool you don't erase the cultural/etnic base, on the contrary if you want do it, do it to give him more keys of read
(example see Othello from Shakespeare,he was a black dude,but he's in Venice as venetian army officier. So etnically you make him african,but his costume is italian/european renaissance based. As you see here mix don't mean use it as excuse to don't give a fuck about cultural/etnic etc base,but on the contrary allow you to put two different ones. Othello sound good potential SC char, good job William :D)

-From first point,the ROLE. Best thing your side-cast can do under design perspective is try to understand wich roles or typical strong figure you can see work well in SC,but for a reason or another is not in the official cast. Few examples?
Tradition/culture
SC don't have characters from that huge culture/geographic area called middle-east.
Think about it,the cast is ALL about extreme west(basically almost all european western nations) characters and extreme east(Japan,China,Korea) characters... but for some strange reason,nothing(technically Astaroth,but fucking camon,he's just a "monster") about who live in the middle of them. From that area you can get huge amout of inspiration about what they wear,how theyr armors are,what weapons they use,which are theyr typical figures.
Whatching actual SC cast i favor a persian captain guard of the sultan's palace over another european armored knight with two hands huge sword. The first can just jump in straight and take a solid role,and then you have that persian guard face to face against a japanese samurai,they sound equally legit. The second... eh,good chance he's just here to live under Sieg's shadow (or under Nightmare's if he's a badass dark knight wannabe).
Obvious,is'nt limited to nationality,it was an example.
Just to say,SC never got uber violent screaming battlefield warrior female char(the closer ones are Hilde and maybe Sophi,and still are too beautiful,delicate looking and feminine). Or another one, SC never had a fat (classic figure of fight games) character,aside the generic berseker back in SC2
See,is'nt about a specific sector,is about find something visually strong that still is'nt used by SC cast

-But... but... fuck you Gatsu, is not like the game allow me to create styles,i must use the existing ones,is obvious similar roles happen!
I agree fatty padawan,let's see how to deal with that bitch :D
The thing is: ok, i'm going to do an european(even german,ha!) male zweinhander user, fuck you Sieg!
How you make it work,without give the instant impression of "look,is poor men's Sieg" ?
First,let's give a look at Sieg's visual most iconic features: he's a long hairs blond knight with gray steel full armor and army green as usual support colour pattern. Yet avoid as possible these features can be a good start
From here, i must act like if Sieg not exist? On the contrary, keep him next to your creation,play on the similarity to create some figure that can coexist wit it.
Examples? I may want to create Sieg's master,who teach him to use that big sword. In that way big age difference and visual features (where Sieg is the classic cool looking hero, his master can be the classic massive full of scars eye-patched gray hairs moustached veteran dog of the battlefield) can give me powerfull chara design difference, but at the same time the similarity of theyr style(since they was master and apprentice) work as connection and help my design instead work against it. Same if the contrary,if as example i want create a kid that is learning the giant ass sword style from Sieg. Or if i really want put him around the same age because i hate olds and kids, let's play on the specular/opposite design, go for the rival-nemesis or one very alternative look... but in that case take an eye on the entire cast,if your idea of nemesis is about "Ha! it will be a dark knight" as yet said you left Sieg's shadow only to fall under Night's one (and face it, no matter what, your CaS will look ever pussy if he start a demonic badassery contest with Night)

-Details. SC officials are fucking full of details. Somebody will say to like the simple line, but truth is,even when officials got relatively simple design, theyr stuff is quality stuff.
Average poor CaS pieces + chose on purpose most boring monocromatic ones = anonymous level go over 9o00
Lucky for us with SC5 stickers and editable 3D objects this will become only a sad remembrance of the past, but keep in mind... when you're able to make peoples forget that's a CaS,you win teh CaS black belt
Another thing,official characters GAINED the right of keep it simple if they want. When a design is well recognized,then it have options that a starting unknow one don't have.
Example: Ryu get an alt where he's without top gi. Just headband, karate pants and black belt. The world go on "wooo uber badass, great alt!!!!" mode.
Yours(or mine) char do the same, world reaction is "u loser buy a fucking jacket whut teh fuck is dat shit",and i will be with them throwing stones and dog shit :D
Chose with attention your pieces,at least one or two of them must have some uniqueness factor that give a strong viasual impact

-Use what the game offer to you. I'm not talking about pieces.
Look, actual officials design have an additional advantage over yours: they got weapons and stages designed for them.
Mitsu is Mitsu also because SC gived him a katana to be a fucking samurai, Voldo is the money pit wierdo guardian also because SC gived him a money pit where do his wierd stuff. Actually you obviously can't create weapons or stages that fit with your design,but you can ever do the reverse process and base your design to fit with a certain weapon and stage,it give very nice reults. Keep ever an eye on alt weapons, the best are the ones that give a total different tradition to certain styles... good example Mitsu, he ever got a european looking broadsword(and the one of SCV is AWESOME) and a middle-east one (Shamshir). These are totally unused concepts that wait just to born

-try to understand how SC design is balanced between realistic and fantasy (wich is'nt the fantasy of elves and LOTR/random anime stuff), it influence all, from design to colours

-try to find an use for pieces that usually get never used, if you do a good work implementing it in you chara design,your char may be very unique looking even just thanks to it

-research reference pics with google, A LOT

-a lot of other stuff but as now seem enough wall text imho :D
 
For one, no comment. =)

For two

:D

Look Pocky,for the #1 i've not put it about like/dislike, it was'nt an excuse to throw shit at Natsu :D
It was about pure chara design consideration... look, of all new faces, nobody is a freak,a huge(Asta/Rock size) one, a fat character, a very strange one(chara design,not style) and so on
You watch them and they're all young, cool wannabe, very average-not-extreme type
Let's drop for a minute teh "iz teh new generation" bs,since we know the 17 years jump had basically no effect on the cast (see all veterans look basically the same)
What we get?
The reverse process :D
Internet-marketing-reverse process (let's keep globalization out for now)
Original way was: the PRO designer create a design(yes,based on audience tastes,but in a waaaaaay more free way) and they sell it to the peoples that can like it or not
Reverse process: Now herp derp peoples without any art knowledge scream on teh internet what is a "cool design", then teh marketing dude read it and say to the designer "do it in that way,it win teh money$"
This is slowly killing chara design, good concepts get just dropped because judged not marketable enough
I undestand them,they're workers,theyr mission as first is sell. No blame,but still sad
Under that perspective i appreciate a lot how Capcom got the balls (lol,easy got balls when you got the most famous FG of history,no matter what you do) to keep artistic style.
I was there when SF4 and then SSF4 got showed and Capcom Unity was a shithole full of whining retards... very few recognized what incredible good job they did with all new characters(aside Seth),they was able to create total new chara design that fit perfectly with the original SF cast, with world level iconic characters that are around from 25 years... and still you don't see style problems, is like they ever was there. Just incredible.
And still kids whined about want "cool" characters,showing pics of examples that with SF have NOTHING to do
But again,sadly Capcom/SF is probably the only one with solid enough "guaranteed" moneys/fanbase to do that and ignore them. I don't blame others,again the job of a SH is as first grab $$$, and specially SC need it (and anyway to be clear SCV chara design is absolutely great)
 
Oh Benjamin,i forgot a big one!

-the animal connection, SC (and SF too) spam it a lot :D
Is something that help give the feeling of your character.
Is a symbol, make stronger what you want say with your design choices
So you get Mitsu being the japanese dragon,wich bring in all the japanese martial tradition etc etc
Cool characters like Pat or Zwei get fast,cool aggressive looking animals like the lynx and the wolf (that on Zwei work even on his body proportions,see how he's developed focus on torso-neck compared to Pat. And also reflect his fight style: wolves are used to fight together in team,rarely engage a fight if alone,theyr strenght is the group).
You see the difference between them,they're like cat and dog, Pat quick,smart,agile and athletic, Zwei still fast but a lil bit more clumsy,and definitely more tough,straightforward oriented
Or creepy ones like Yoshi and Voldo that get creepy animals like crustaceans,octopus,scorpions and spiders
Or Yun get the koi fish,wich will take other explanations, and so on
Sometimes is not a precise animal, see Rock that change at every costume, because he represent (ever with powerful giants: see bison,dinosaur,mammoth,rhino) the primitive power of the savage animals/nature as a whole
Sometimes is'nt even an animal,example can be a nature element like the fire/darkness, or the ice/light(see the opposition Night-Sieg) or... the wind, see Talim.
People call it animal motif because is the most spammed and easy to read,but is just about find something (just to say,Leixia got flowers) that work as "symbol" and give an additional layer that make deeper your design
 

-Is a single concept/idea/ispiration a good way to create a CaS?

It's certainly a start point. It shouldn't be a cage though, you should be able to adapt and twist ideas to your own design without feeling shackled by the concept. It's an idea and ideas can evolve and change.

-Clichè: it is teh evil? It can have positive sides?


Things that are cliche are usually cliche for a reason. Black and red are forever associated with evil thanks to the likes of Dracula and Darth Vader, eye-patches usually go to the war veterans, barbarians usually have fur loincloths etc. They're overused because they work. There's nothing really "wrong" with it as it does help give an impression of who a character is at a glance. Putting a little twist on it to make you own is the tricky bit. How do you make your barbarian different from say, Rock? Different weapon perhaps or just good old fashioned trial and error.

-Colour scheme: how to deal with that bitch?


Avoid pitch black like the plague would be my answer (seriously, it was called the BLACK Death for a reason.). I don't think any of the characters in SCIV actually have complete pitch black in their designs at all. It's all dark shades of blues/browns/greens etc. Black has no colour to it, all you get from it is shades of grey and it doesn't play nicely with light and there is no hues to mix. Light helps colours blend and mesh. Black is a total dick as far as colours go because it gives absolutely nothing. You lose so much detail because everything is so dark. It's the same deal for saturation. The higher the saturation, the more detail and subtlety is lost and your character looks out of place. Also, using different colours for different things helps deepen a design. Straps are different from the robes which are different from armour. Making straps brown, cloth blue and armour silver or something is deeper than just going down the "superhero" route of using two colours: one primary the other for trim. Little details like buckles, armour trim and the like can be different again. There's quite a lot of scope for colours.

-Done 50 original CaS and passed 398 hours in teh editor, i earned my black belt right? I'm a CaS God,no?

I've got 50 CaS. I don't have 50 amazing CaS. I could point out a few I think are boring, uninspired or generally could be better. Strictly speaking the more you have, the more likely it is that you have some not so good characters. That being said I disagree with making alt costumes for the characters I create, "Dark" or "Evil" variants of characters is also a bit of a pet peeve of mine which I try to avoid. Personally speaking once a character is made and I'm happy with them I tend to be attached to the look and can't really see them being anything else. If I'm making an alt (which to be worthwhile would need to look pretty different from the original, right?) I may as well make a totally new character and go all out on it. If I did want to change their look I'd just change their outfit.

-Ehh,i've great creative talent (my mom told me so), it's Sc editor's fault being so limited.. right?


If you've "great creative talent" you really should be spending your time trying to make money from it. In the real world. Not in SCIV/V etc. The editor has its limitations but blaming it for not being able to make the perfect character shows a lack of flexibility in the creator to adapt to what they're given. Is it important that the character looks perfect or feels the way you thought they should? These are two different things. One is unreasonable given the nature of CaS, the other depends solely on the creator.

-Why do you believe chara design is dying? Or to use a lil less strong opinion,why is getting weaker?


They're trying to be "cool". Dynasty Warriors has suffered from this. In DW3 the characters were all distinctly Chinese looking. By DW6 they had spiky anime hair and various other bits of nonsense. DW7 fixed it a bit, though. It's a scary thought to think character design is being governed in some way by general gamers. I play DC Universe Online and holy crap some of the player "designs" there are like the remnants of a nuclear war between Disney and the Power Rangers. Afro pixies, Gundam robots, red and black "demons" with wings, the lot.

At the end of the day they go with what is marketable and these days a game needs to sell an absurd amount of units (I believe it's over a million?) to be considered viable. They're less inclined to take risks with anything and this includes character design. It's risk vs reward. It's not even a question of effort you can see from the concepts the ideas they had floating around, it's marketing that decides what ultimately goes out. They want to appeal to a different audience (didn't they say as much when asked about Ezio's inclusion?). Sadly appealing to a bigger market means pissing less people off which means taking less risks which means diluting the ethnicity as well as making the cast younger.

Street Fighter is immune (Capcom as a company isn't, see the DMC5 shit storm from a few years back) because it's the Great White Shark of fighting games. It doesn't need to change because it IS the template.

Also, lol Pocky Yoshi. "Slapping the typical Sephiroth" is now listed in my mind as a double entendre. I have absolutely no idea why it is and I'm not proud of it.
 
Welcome dude, i very liked your reply :D

I partially disagree (but maybe not,maybe i've just read it wrong) only about one lil thing: the alt costume is a great opportunity to develop and add layers to a design.
Sure alt demonic dark shit versions are ugly and dumb on 99.999% of times(maybe is this that you mean), but the 2p itself is a good way too show another side of the character.
One that i ever liked is SC3 Sieg 1p-2p, with 1p being the battlefield all steel and iron armor, and 2p a more "normal days" version of him,with clothes on(and still some lil pieces of armour on), a very nice one
You can use it to give another key of read to your char, specially in SC where the chara design point is keep the character (said as the body) but give him new outfits chapter after chapter... difference as example from SF where the iconic oufit if part of the character,and irony is the character sometimes that change (i count FIVE Ryu :D)
Specially in SCV where you can play alot with body proportions create a good char that visually reflect what you want(example watch Capcom big guys: Gief,Hakan,Hugo,T.Hawk.... they are'nt just huge guys with the muscle boost at maximum designs,everyone have very distinctive body proportions... but without go that far,just see Patroklos-Zwei differences) even before give him a costume,imho is going to be big part of the creation
Also have it with 2 costumes give that "official feeling" that is'nt bad
On the contrary, actually it feel weak when officials get just re-colour as 2p (Ezio,Aeon,Alpha Pat,Kilik)
 
I thought I replied here. That makes me look rude and dickish. I apologize.

Um, well to respond to your month old post (sorry!), I totally see and agree with your points. I understand that an alt is like seeing a character in a different light and that in a visual sense they do help tell the story of the character. A good example is Hilde from SCIV- 1P is a knight, 2P is a very regal gown- you know her deal from that alone.

However, personally speaking if I start making an alt for one my own characters I tend to drift into a totally new one. For example if I'm making an alt for an armour clad knight, something like an everyday type look (as you mentioned, like Siegfried) to show his non-soldier side I'll start putting things together and think "this should be a different character" and by the time I'm done, it is. The knight's non-soldier side still exists in my head, it's just not got a visual representation. Meanwhile the "civilian" character has been made with that in mind and from that point their own personality grows.

My background isn't really character design, it's more writing so while I understand the role alts play in telling stories and the like I do tend to just have that story written down, if that makes sense.

I do agree that changing the builds of body will help distinguish characters from one another and it does give greater creative freedom which is a double edged sword... (PUN!). I've not played around with builds much except from slimming down some armour which makes my characters look like beer kegs with legs. CaS in general takes some getting used to in SCV, there's lots of details and subtleties like using patterns to help add texture to some of the clothes. Trial and Error 2: The Revengening.

I'm looking forward to seeing what people do with it down the road. I've already seen some interesting things...and read some truly disturbing things. Creative freedom can be a bitch sometimes.

Oh and lol at the "Dark" versions of characters thing. Hi there, Pyrrha Omega and Alpha Patroklos!

Damn.
 
I can't say much compared to what others are saying, so I'm only going based on my perception on how to make quality designs.

Whenever there is a game that includes Creation mode (WWE, SC, etc.) I try to keep the characters fitting in with the rest of the cast as much as possible. In this case, I do a lot of researching, which includes...

1. Weaponry, even though it isn't a substantial part for Creation Mode, but it is for those who have future wishlists to specific characters they feel should be in the next game.

2. Timeline, which seems to be a HEAVY role in this game. I do plenty of research involving what people from various countries were involved in during this era. Conflict of some sort.

3. Somewhat on the same field as #2, any type of fashion during that era.

4. A theme/symbol, whether it be an animal or any fiction.

I'm only going based on how they would have designed characters during the SE era, rather than how they are doing it now.
 
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