Getting Used To Things.

Im torn between alot of chars xD. Nightmare...Astaroth....Sophie....Xianghua. x__x;; having problems picking one.
 
Ok, so before I do this writeup; I need to know a few things from you:

1) When you say you want to " i should say play for real", what do you mean by that? My default assumption is to learn to play the game in a skilled manner against human opponents. If this perception is off; let me know so I can direct you to the right info.

2) Which characters do you consider your "mains" (I get the impression Nightmare, but anyone else?) In case you are new to the concept, a main is a character which you are more well versed/more well educated; or in the case of a new player, a character which you want to become versed and educated in and are dedicated to doing so.

3) Are you familiar with the notations used on the site, i.e 3B, 66K, B6, 4(B), ect?

Please don't take my town as down-talking, I prefer to not make assumptions about your level of knowledge/lingo understanding. In this way I can get a better picture of where your at and advise you more accurately!

Awaiting your reply :)

-Idle
 
When i said play for real i meant that i realized that i had limited knowledge of the game, but i want to play with people on XBL things like that. I realized when i had difficulty beating Algol on Arcade. In short im trying to improve my game skill, because i dont consider how i played actually real fighting. (Id spam certain moves, and didnt know any combos)

Mains.... id say right now... im intrested most in Sophie, Nightmare and Astaroth. Though out of the 3, im most familar with Sophie.

When it comes to those notations, im completely lost! xD
 
Ok first thing's first, before I can teach you any technical information, understanding the notations is the most important thing.

Thread: http://8wayrun.com/threads/basic-notations-and-terminology.58/

Convienient Video Format: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDDfI554mQs&feature=player_embedded

Once you understand these things; you can begin to understand the information presented on the site.

Alright, assuming you've digested those; there are many ways to learn to play the game. My personal suggestion is 3 major things help you learn the game:

1) The obvious: Playing the game.

Playing the game with skilled players is a more accurate definition of what I'm trying to say. There is an old saying, which is "Your only as good as your best competition". Playing against good people will show you what your bad habits are as a player; because they will exploit them. Then, from your match experience, and especially from your losses, if you can reflect on WHY you lost (or have a good teacher who can explain it to you as well), you will learn rapidly. It also familiarizes you with match-ups and move animations, as well as common tactics.


If you have no offline competition in your area (which you can figure out by visiting this forum), or are loathe to venture out into the offline arena without some basics first, playing online is a decent but imperfect substitute.

Allow me to be frank: Online does not offer a complete way to learn. The differences in the game online and off are many and varied; due to lag having such a huge and sometimes hidden effect on the way the game is played. That doesn't mean that it's worthless though, because there are many good players online and even some top tournament players play online SC. The major difference between them and the bad players is that they omit "lag tactics" from their play as much as humanly possible. For more insight on "Lag Tactics" and how to level up your game online, visit this thread and this forum. Be sure to heed to header warning though. Sometimes the online forum can be not-so-nice.

2) Practice Mode is your friend!

SC4 offers a very robust practice mode; with tons of options. It can help you combo practice, and it can help you learn to defend against certain attacks. You can program it to attack you in certain ways so you can become familiar with how to deal with those things. Every good player has spent "time in the lab" as practice mode is known. Those combos you can practice? You can find them in the respective characters Soul Arenas, which house character specific information: Nightmare Sophitia and Astaroth. You can also find info on the characters moves; and matchups against other characters.

3) Watching videos of good players

This one seems obvious, but there is a caveat to it- while it is good to see what effective moves and tactics good players use; it is far more important to see what they DON'T do. Ask yourself why certain players aren't doing certain things and you will be on your way to learning to break down the game and become a better player.

Some sample videos from top tournament players for each of your characters:

Keev (Nightmare) vs Saitoh (Astaroth) Both of these players are largely regarded as the best players for their particular character.

Something Unique (Kilik) vs Ramon (Sophitia) These players are also widely regarded with both of their characters, perhaps the best examples in the US of each of them.

This should get you started, I'll follow this one up with some more specific information tommorow.

-Idle
 
Thank you so much Idle. I watched those tournament links you sent me, i was wowed at the skills of the participants. Saitoh knows his Astaroth well o_o;. I also was suprised at the Ramon Vs. Something-Unique Battle. The way Sophitia came back on that last round on the 3rd match was shocking.

But now i understand the notations now. It wasnt as confusing as i thought it would be. I also analyzed those fights i watched also and noticed some key things. One of the few was that Saitoh just about took every opportunity he found to attack Keev. Those air grabs looked complex. They also didnt just rush in recklessly, like I always did. And they were taking advantage on their positions near the edges of the ring or anywhere on the ring. Final thing i noticed was that Saitoh shortened his unblockables, which made me learn that Unblockables dont have to be fully charged to be efficient.

Thank You For The Info! ;] It really taught me something, (Unless im wrong on something, correct me please if i am)

Ill probably use some Practice Mode tonite. But just one question: Out of my 3 Selections of chars id like to know better and master, which one would be more user friendly to me at the knowledge/skill level of SC im at? Astaroth, Nightmare or Sophie?

But thats all, thanks again for that post full of info!
 
All ramble of dogmatic encourage post lol:

Particularly when it came to maining someone, I would always pick the one that compliments my playstyle. Yoshi for instance was mained for all my needs and he's of course a favorite. Anyways, the most easy one to learn out of all three is all personal opinion. Do you like grappling power? Asty's for you. You like ring-out or crush the opponent with force? Nighty's for you. Do you for instance prefer sheer girl power(trust me girls usually are more deadlier than guys lol) then Sophie will be your girl. All three have the tools they need to keep a solid game, it just you have to beware of their weaknesses.....which I'll leave for the more experts of those said characters. Or you could main all three to be the jack of all trades. Just one fundamental rule for anyone new(forgive me if I sound rude): Rome wasn't built in one day as to you can't be awesome in one day. Basically, take your time in learning all you need to be good enough to pwn your friends at this game(admit it, you wanna make them fear you a bit.) If you get stuck, help is always.......um.....one click away. Okay that was cliche lol. In any case, hope you voraciously ask for help and chill out with......um......us ><;
 
Yeah pretty much. Ive been playing Nightmare for a VERY LONG TIME now and Im still anything but perfect. I learned purely from playing online so this way will get you going a lot faster but youll still need to keep at it. I know its frustrating to lose a lot so all I can say is "It may suck now, but theres nothing more satisfying than playing a solid game versus a solid player and winning". That may take a bit but its SOOO worth it. Keep at it :)
 
Alright now time for a lengthy and detailed reply/2nd post. This one will be flooded with alot of info, so be forewarned. I'll focus on Astaroth because I feel I can best explain him to you, being an Astaroth tournament player myself. I'll try and use the video I linked for an easy reference and cite other references while I go over it!

Brizzyyy said:
One of the few was that Saitoh just about took every opportunity he found to attack Keev. Those air grabs looked complex. They also didnt just rush in recklessly, like I always did. And they were taking advantage on their positions near the edges of the ring or anywhere on the ring. Final thing i noticed was that Saitoh shortened his unblockables, which made me learn that Unblockables dont have to be fully charged to be efficient.
Click to expand...

Astaroth lives and dies on how well he can make an opponent afraid of him/his options. His basic mix-up at close range is Bullrush (66K), delayed Bullrush (pause slightly before doing 66K) to catch people flinch ducking in fear of a throw and to catch people who sidestep because the waiting re-aligns him to his opponent, or Command Throw A or B (63214 A+G or 63214 B+G). Saitoh also makes use of 3(B) slight hold to see how Keev will react because if Keev stops guarding and goes to sidestep it, it can catch him and give him the 2A+K ground pickup combo that you saw there. Why are each of these moves good? Allow me to explain.

Bullrush (66K) is a mid hitting, tech crouch, body attack that knocks down and rings out at ring edges, and wall-splats near walls. Also, its very fast for Astaroth.

What does all this mean? Well, mid means it hit's opponents who crouch and opponents who stand have to block it. Tech-crouch means it ducks under high attacks and throws during the move animation. It being a Body Attack is relevant against certain auto-impacts and defenses which don't defend against that type of attack. Knockdown is important because it allows Astaroth to run up and continue pressuring. Ring Out and Wall Splat are obvious, of course. On top of these things the move is "safe" against most characters, meaning if they block it; they do not get any "free" hits on Astaroth before he can guard again.

63214A+G is the command throw you will see hit with Astaroth most often. The throw does great damage, and leaves the opponent at his feet afterwords. On top of that, because it's a command throw the window for the opponent to break the throw is smaller. Also, it has the benefit of not being able to Guard Impacted or Parried.
As another bonus, if the opponent is jumping while you do this throw, it will shift into an air-throw, so this throw unlike all others can be used to punish people jumping to avoid throws.

63214B+G is the reason the above throw hits so much. This throw combos into both 22B and 28B+G (also known as Titan Bomb), and does about 50% life in damage. It also has amazing Ring-Out potential in any direction by just Bullrushing or A+G throwing them out of the air after. This throw is so scary, people often ONLY break B instead of A, thus giving you lots of free A throws.

Ok, back on the subject of delayed unblockables. 4(A+B) can also be used in a similar fashion as a slightly delayed unblockable but is riskier. Whereas if he does 3(B)and stops short and it get's blocked, Astaroth is safer from taking free hits because of 3(B)'s push-back and quick recovery. 4(A+B) is good because on a counter-hit or catching someone moving, it gives a stun which gives Astaroth damage and position. The downside is, it's riskier because if you stop short and the move is blocked; Astaroth is heavily punishable. He's at what we call "-20". This is short for -20 frames, which is the speed the game is measured in.

A quick rundown on frames: The game runs at 60 frames per second. Moves in the game have frames to activate relative to their speed, and recovery frames on block. Let's say an Asta was facing another Asta. Asta1 does 4(A+B)
and Asta2 blocks it. Asta1 is considered to be at -20, so if Asta2 does any move 20 frames or under, its guaranteed to hit because Asta1 cannot block. This is called "Block Punishment" or just "Punishment". Asta2 can get a "free" Bullrush because it executes in 17 frames or "i17" (the i is short for instant). To learn more about Astaroth's frames check out the wiki HERE.

Thank You For The Info! ;] It really taught me something, (Unless im wrong on something, correct me please if i am)

Ill probably use some Practice Mode tonite. But just one question: Out of my 3 Selections of chars id like to know better and master, which one would be more user friendly to me at the knowledge/skill level of SC im at? Astaroth, Nightmare or Sophie?
Click to expand...

Your welcome for the info, I hope it gives you a good start! I would suggest leaning towards Astaroth because in a wierd way he teaches you the basics of the game better than any other character. Spacing, Throwing, Attack Timing, and using your opportunities. If you have any more questions, feel free to ask. I could analyze that Saitoh vs Keev video ALL DAY for many posts, there is so much good stuff in it.

-Idle
 
Awesome Info! I never would of known Asta taught you that much. Some of the notations/moves you mentioned here i remember doing in practice mode last night. But sometimes i just have problems inputtinng movement like 63214 B+G. While looking through the move list i noticed all the things Asta can do on a downed opponent, or when their in the air. I also read somewhere else that he often has to block when fighting fast chars so he can find openings?

Thanks for The Info Idle ;]
 
Against faster characters who spam attacks you generally have these options:

6K (aka Knee). This move tech-crouches, and is pretty fast (i17), and on CH give you a combo. You use this move when you think the opponent is going to used a delayed attack or press their advantage after you block their pokes. Lets say you get hit with a 2K (which for most characters is -3 or 4 on HIT), and you think they will try to transition into a rising attack or throw attempt. Using 6K here will generally interrupt because it will come out 3 to 4 frames "faster" as a result of the opponents frame disadvantage. On CH, this combos into 2B+K A+G. On block it isn't so bad, only -14. Sophitia is the only character in the game who can punish you hard on block. As a bonus, if you only normal hit with it, your still at +3 afterwords!

6A. This move is technically part of a string; 6AB, but the 6A part by itself is MUCH better alone than using both hits.
6A is i12, which is VERY fast, and even though it's -14 on block, punishing it is hard because of how fast the move is and the threat of the second hit, even if you only use it occasionally. On normal hit it isn't so good, but CH its +2, and if your REALLY good at reading the opponent you can input the B which combos if 6A counter-hits. 6AB though is -18 block, which is very bad. A good example situation of when 6AB is good to use over just 6A is when you block Sigfrieds 3(B), because Sig players LOVE pressing buttons after that move. Your almost guaranteed a CH.

Guard Impact (6G or 3G). This is the riskiest option if you whiff, you will be left exposed, but if you manage to impact their attack, you will be at the "post GI situation". You are left at +20; but the opponent can GI back. How to use this to your advantage? Mixup your 63214 throws, because they can't be GI'd back, they would have to perfect JI them. They can't duck them, so it's a free throw mixup on a successful Guard Impact.

-Idle
 
Allow me to hop in here guys - There is a way to make Astaroth's throw game even scarier:
If you press 63214 fastest possible input and input your throw simultaneously - Astaroth will flash as though he used a just frame move. This seems hard at first, BUT it increases the power of your A+G throw AND makes the window to grapple break much smaller - if you master this, Astaroth's throw game becomes nothing short of terrifying. It really is worth the practice =)
 
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