Hardest Character to master and win with.

I'd go with Mina.
It seems like most of her long ranged moves are very linear and/or slow.
And all of her low moves are really slow or require a FC state which is weird to enter with her.
She has like only 4 or 5 moves max which recover crouched or at least it feels like that.
I think she is top when it comes to both hard to master(the crouch and range management) and hard to win with (Slooow)
Anyone who is good with her has my respect (whatever that's worth)

I main taki since soul calibur 1 and play SC4 for more than a year now, though online mostly.
I don't think she is hard to win with because she has very very many tools to work with, lots of mixups and some really damaging stuff.
But i think she is very hard to master.
I still discover like 3 new things a week.
Her STK WR PO movement system is outrageous. Mixed with HO and fake HO.
And there's lots of stuff which isn't useful at all or only in one or two situations.
To discern what's what is the challenge.
 
I'm pretty good with Astaroth and I Main Setsuka, so I guess I can just explain that even though setsuka is difficult to use. Astaroth requires a little bit more attention to detail than she does. Astaroth has a habit of being insanely predictable, the best way to win with astaroth (for me atleast) is to just keep steady pressure and keep them against the wall. One bull rush, a knee and a low grab tends to do a decent amount of damage. His grab game is the best though, JF-FOTW into a JF-Titan Bomb usually keeps people on their toes. Keep them in a rythm, and when they duck to keep from being grabbed, low grab them.

Most of my damage from setsuka comes with staying in their face and pressuring them. Not many people have a GI game as good as mine (no one that i've fought anyway) so my defensive abilities help me out alot there also. a GI into a JF-umbrella or 1B:B~6K~A+Kb usually puts them on their ass.

Anyway, both characters are nice to master. But like kingace said, some of the simpler characters tend to be the ones that win tournaments where i'm from. Ivy? Never. Tira? Never. They just require too much attention during high level match ups.
 
Plume said:
When I wanted to try Mina, I started to think that I could use 4A+B mixups as my core game. It seemed fun and filled with potential mind games.
Until I realized that absolutely ALL her 4A+B options can be GIed at the exact same time.
...So her 4A+B move and options are 100% useless in theory fighter.

She has no sweet tricks, just risks and negative properties.
She makes Tira, Talim, Raphael and Rock look high-tier in comparison.
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I used to love the 4A+B series... You discover something you think is awesome, but then it fails horribly. The story of low tiers.
BTW, why does everyone hate on Talim so much? She seems pretty good, but then again, I'm an online player.
 
Nukleurfire said:
I used to love the 4A+B series... You discover something you think is awesome, but then it fails horribly. The story of low tiers.
BTW, why does everyone hate on Talim so much? She seems pretty good, but then again, I'm an online player.
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On the Talim part I can say that she IS pretty good in my opinion. Just stupidly unsafe and kinda a risk/reward character. However Talim, and other low tier chars in general, need to make much more good decisions in a battle to gain the upperhand. What I mean by that is that your defense must be pretty good or even better then your opponent, and you must know the right time to strike as when you do it wrong you will get punished.

That doesn't take away the fact that low tiers can definitly win, and I am one who believes that if you are truly setting your heart into it you can achieve great things with ANY char (yes even Rock...that poor guy). There is just one thing itching in the back of my head. And that's the feeling that if I lost, or even won the batlle, that I would be better off with a high-tier character. But since now I managed to push those feelings away.

Sorry for going offtopic: I think Rock is definitly the char that is fighting a uphill battle even when fully mastered. A great deal of his combo's (ground throws, crouch trows, stuns) can be avoided even when hit. Just give this poor guy some guarenteed combo's.
 
Bootyclap said:
I'd love to see you win nationals with Setsuka. >_>
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Setsuka isn't that bad Booty. You just have to get her JFs in your muscle memory. If you really think about it Setsuka is just a better version of the sisters. She has a faster punisher, stronger throws (minus Cassandra's crouch throws), and better lows. I don't know about Sophie, but I know she can also deal with step much easier than Cassandra.
 
Prymo said:
On the Talim part I can say that she IS pretty good in my opinion. Just stupidly unsafe and kinda a risk/reward character. However Talim, and other low tier chars in general, need to make much more good decisions in a battle to gain the upperhand. What I mean by that is that your defense must be pretty good or even better then your opponent, and you must know the right time to strike as when you do it wrong you will get punished.

That doesn't take away the fact that low tiers can definitely win, and I am one who believes that if you are truly setting your heart into it you can achieve great things with ANY char (yes even Rock...that poor guy). There is just one thing itching in the back of my head. And that's the feeling that if I lost, or even won the battle, that I would be better off with a high-tier character. But since now I managed to push those feelings away.

Sorry for going offtopic: I think Rock is definitely the char that is fighting a uphill battle even when fully mastered. A great deal of his combo's (ground throws, crouch trows, stuns) can be avoided even when hit. Just give this poor guy some guaranteed combo's.
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I think everyone's kind of come to an agreement that any character can win, but some just do it a lot easier. What makes it difficult for Talim? Fast, got good stances, low/mid mixup attacks, lots of TJ, guaranteed and useful combos... Rock has like, 6K/bullrush mixup. Lol. Mi entire not oki game is 6K, Bullrush, 6B+K and the occasional throw. Sometimes A+Bs. And I'm not even using bullrush that much as of late.
Mina's still worse tho.
 
Talim's stances' usefulness depends on the opponent, if they like to use a ton of horizontals or if they have verticals that track very well. (Talim's stances are a lost cause against Mitsurugi.)

I'm only talking about 2B+K, but if you believe Jaxel, 4B+K is even worse.

So her stances and anything that depends on stances (like mix ups mostly...) are dependent on the opponent.



Rock has 3B, *3A*, 1A, *2A+K*, 6K, 66A,B, 66B, *B,B*, 22B, 2B+K, 4A+B and two okay unblockables for wakeup after ground throw.
...And if you do not use a CaS model, Rock has a pretty good throw range.
I don't even see what's the deal with bullrush. I don't use that thing.
 
Plume said:
Talim's stances...


Rock has 3B, *3A*, 1A, *2A+K*, 6K, 66A,B, 66B, *B,B*, 22B, 2B+K, 4A+B and two okay unblockables for wakeup after ground throw.
...And if you do not use a CaS model, Rock has a pretty good throw range.
I don't even see what's the deal with bullrush. I don't use that thing.
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I don't really have Talim experience and you're a big name, so I'll take your word for it.

I also dunno about the Rock stuff. I sometimes use 66AB to catch step at mid range. For wakeup stuff, I use alot of those moves. 4A+B, 1A, 22B, sometimes 2B+K or 2A+K for reverse RO, and the unblockables (but the duckable one a little less).
But in terms of standing, I really see no advantage of using those moves over 6K. CH crouch throw? Meh.
 
Talim

- Most of my moves are unsafe.

-My stances are epic fail.

- I have the range of a 3 year old.

- And I do not have one good match up, and can get beat by one move from two characters.

Talim is all about making the right choices, so could be one of the hardest characters to use due, and will take you soem time master her.
 
CrazyYoshimitsu said:
Talim

- Most of my moves are unsafe.

-My stances are epic fail.

- I have the range of a 3 year old.

- And I do not have one good match up, and can get beat by one move from two characters.

Talim is all about making the right choices, so could be one of the hardest characters to use due, and will take you soem time master her.
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Omg you have the awesomest similes. Plastic bag Setsuka now Talim with 3 year old range? ???
Also, 2 characters can beat her simultaneously with only 1 move between them? Conjoined twin attack. Hiya! Or maybe you mean there are 2 characters each with 1 Talim-crushing move?
 
i've read a ton of post and no one mentioned zasalamel he's IMO the hardest 2 get good with if u wiff your going 2 get punished and his recovery from stuns leave him open 4 even more abuse

he's now my main i will get good with him
 
Nukleurfire said:
I don't really have Talim experience and you're a big name, so I'll take your word for it.

I also dunno about the Rock stuff. I sometimes use 66AB to catch step at mid range. For wakeup stuff, I use alot of those moves. 4A+B, 1A, 22B, sometimes 2B+K or 2A+K for reverse RO, and the unblockables (but the duckable one a little less).
But in terms of standing, I really see no advantage of using those moves over 6K. CH crouch throw? Meh.
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I'm not a big name at all heh... And I only started being serious about Talim one or two months ago.
And I forgot to list Rock's 4K,A which is a move that I find very useful.

I personally use 6K very rarely. I just use it a little outside of throw range if I think that I'll counter something. It's pretty easy to punish on block and on whiff.
So I don't really see why you're wondering what the other moves have over 6K...
It might help if you're being pitbulled, but a simple throw or 3A can work as well, which provide different results and are probably safer.

So basically, why use anything else than 6K?
1. For range
2. To be harder to punish.
3. In the case of BB and 22B, to work the opponent's soul gauge. (Or just to throw something randomly, which is quick, has range, and is safe.(BB))
4. Mixups (2A+K and crouch throw)
5. To be less predictable, because you do not want them to expect your 6K...
6. 66B is a killer on counter hit and can be used while running forward.
(Follow up with 6K for ring out, or crouch throw.)

After you block a move and you think that they'll block, waiting for your retaliation, you can run to them and perform 2A+K. For some reason it works pretty well...

On wakeup, 22[A+B] is nice if you've already used 236B+K once, because then they'll see the fire and think that you're doing 236B+K again for a brief moment. It will make them get up quickly, and hopefully they'll recognize 22[A+B] a little too late.
But it's just a little gimmick that shouldn't really work against good opponents. That's why I think it's merely "okay", because it might work once or twice...

Also, there's another move that I forgot : 2A.
Unlike pretty much anyone else, Rock's 2A is a real low, NOT a special low. AND it has nice range.



...I listed several things that I think make Rock not-so-hopeless, but for some reason, if I was the one reading this post, I think that I still wouldn't be convinced that Rock can be good.
Maybe one just has to see a good Rock to be convinced. Or just do what I named above and realize that it works, without really wondering why exactly. (Now that sounded pretty bad...)
He doesn't have any brainless tool that makes miracles, but he doesn't have serious weaknesses either.
The almost complete lack of combos hardly matters, because you can use a lot of his moves without big worries, and has good enough 50/50s... Both of which create nice pressure.

His main weakness is the lack of a good anti-pressure move or a good punisher...
But he still has ways to cut the pressure, the problem is that he has to guess right, which is risky.
And with such throw range and access to crouch throw, he doesn't really need a real punisher.
 
Nukleurfire said:
Omg you have the awesomest similes. Plastic bag Setsuka now Talim with 3 year old range? ???
Also, 2 characters can beat her simultaneously with only 1 move between them? Conjoined twin attack. Hiya! Or maybe you mean there are 2 characters each with 1 Talim-crushing move?
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Rapha and X 44B can pretty destroy all of my options. And these jokes about SC just pop up in my head randomly.
 
hardest to master AND win(AND being the key word here)

1)mina- winning, LOL...must hit with tip of spear=sucks

2)rock-WTF Rock

3)zas- plz zas, win...must know frames

4)sets- i geuss winning isn't bad if you can pulloff her moveset, but i've played em all and i feel she's got the toughest move set to master

5)maxi- so much shit to learn

6)talim- no need for explanation

7)tira
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twinsbrown said:
Setsuka, Ivy, Taki, Hilde.
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ivy can be effective even if you haven't gotten her whole moveset down, and if you do, winning isn't too hard

same with taki

hilde?!?! pretty easy to learn and win with



BTW easiet character to learn and win with is by far LIZARDMAN
 
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