Hate Speech: Theory Fighter University: Remedial Math

  • Moderator
Greetings, my minions... I mean, class! When last we met, we glossed the basic idea that characters can and should be evaluated on their own merits, divorced from such harder to quantify things as ease of use or player skill. Today we’ll be engaging with the mechanics of such evaluation.

There can be no doubt that psychology, creativity, good reads, and mental toughness—all subjective qualities—are critical to achieving success in competitive fighting games. The stage on which these particular player qualities are brought to bear is, by contrast, decidedly objective, being defined by hard numbers. That being the case, when it comes to evaluating character match-ups and mixup scenarios, it stands to reason that we can use these numbers to gain valuable insight into which characters, discrete options, and so on, give us the most dramatic advantage. Don’t worry, it’s not as daunting as it seems. I think. Screw it. Go ahead and worry. Maybe pop some Advil before we get started, too, just in case.

0ifGR.jpg
Hate Speech: Now brought to you by Advil, one of our new corporate sponsors!

Definition Time

Some useful terms:

Mixup Scenario

A situation, post-hit, -block, wakeup, or in the open field, wherein a player is forced to make a guess of some sort.

Example: after Astaroth or Voldo’s ground pick-up throws, the player being picked up must usually guess between defending against a throw or a safe mid.

Zero-Sum Mixup

Borrowing obliquely from game theory’s usage of the term zero-sum, this defines a situation wherein guessing correctly nets a player damage while guessing incorrectly costs him damage. This is in contrast to mixups wherein a player might guess correctly and be rewarded only with escaping damage and perhaps frames.

Example: Any mixup involving forcing an opponent to choose between defending one of two unsafe options.

Mathematical Advantage

This term applies to any match-up or mixup scenario in which, after equalizing for player skill, the underlying raw numbers favor a particular character over time. The highest levels of competitive play are all about maximizing mathematical advantage and repeatedly forcing these situations onto an opponent.

U5dng.jpg
How's that headache doing? You know you can take the edge off with a refreshing Maddog 20 20, official drink of Hate Speech!

Calculating Mathematical Advantage

First, to be clear, I’m not demanding that anyone break out their TI-86s. Just getting an idea of a range like “Very Good/Good/Bad/Abysmal” can be enough to act as a general guideline. To that end, I’ll only be engaging with the numbers to an extent; once the general tenor of a mixup becomes apparent, I see no reason in pursuing it down to microscopic detail.

A basic scenario would be Astaroth, in a position of advantage, running up to another character and mixing between a throw and a Bullrush (66K). In most cases, the defending player’s options are crouching, which defeats the former, and sidestep, which defeats the latter. (Note that, given these parameters, the defender is forcing Astaroth into a zero-sum mixup. Electing to block a bulrush instead of stepping it makes the scenario far more favorable for Astaroth because it gives him an option wherein the defender guesses correctly but he does not, in fact, take damage.) Astaroth’s general reward structure, assuming he guesses correctly, is as follows:

  • Bullrush hits, opponent takes 28 damage, and is knocked down.
  • Throw connects, opponent takes an average of around 36 damage*, and is knocked down.
Guessing incorrectly, of course, opens him up to step punishes and FC/WR punishes, respectively.

*Note on how throw damage is calculated here: I added the damage for his A and B command grabs, roughly 65 and 80 damage, then divided by two. I then divide by two again to account for a 50% chance to break each grab.

Now let’s plug in the punishments for Astaroth guessing incorrectly. We’ll use Cervantes for this example:
  • Bullrush is stepped, Cervantes punishes with 3B, iGDR, 28B for 65 damage, Astaroth grounded.
  • Throw is ducked, Cervantes punishes with FC A+B spam for ~70, opponent grounded, or WR A, aK for roughly 50 damage and significant advantage, Astaroth left standing.
The scenario outlined, we have to factor player skill out of this equation. Assuming both players are equally skilled, we can assume that, over a long enough time horizon, each will guess right 50% of the time, yielding an average damage of (28+36)/2=32 average damage for Astaroth, and (65+50)/2=57.5 average damage for Cervantes if we reliably go with his easier, less damaging option. Astaroth is effectively wagering57 damage to deal 32. Cervantes has a decisive mathematical advantage of almost two to one.

Let’s observe how the numbers change if Cervantes decides to stand and block bullrush rather than commit to stepping. Astaroth’s numbers remain unchanged; he’s still getting an overall average of about 32 damage every time he initiates this mixup. By blocking bullrush rather than stepping and punishing, however, Cervantes’ numbers become (0+50)/2=25 if we take the lower damage option, (0+70)/2=35 for his more difficult punish. In the first case, Astaroth has a marginal mathematical advantage. In the second, Cervantes’ mathematical advantage is negligible. Doing the math tells us why it is important to minimize your own zero-sum mixups while working, as in the case of stepping instead of blocking in the above example, to maximize the number of zero-sum mixups your opponent utilizes.

IVjUg.jpg

Still Here? Bet you are hungry- you should try a Popeyes combo plate, official soul food of Hate Speech!

Application and Caveats

Before you start frothing at the mouth and exclaiming things like “b-b-but if I was Astaroth I’d throw out 66A and etcetera, etcetera,” remember that we’re talking about guidelines, not absolutes. There are myriad ways in which basic mixup scenarios can be made more complicated. That said, these complications tend to undermine the effectiveness of the original mixup, introducing new risks and rewards into the occasion. Circumstances will invariably shift and evolve, and that is where your own skills as a player have an opportunity to shine.

What’s more, it’s important to remember that evaluating mixups and match-ups in this fashion addresses averages over time. There are no guarantees that these numbers will bear out 100% in any given match, or even any given five or ten matches. When you’re flipping a coin, sometimes it just comes up all tails. Even so, possessing a strong understanding of any situation’s mathematical underpinnings allows a savvy player to subtly shift the match into his favor, and these results will manifest themselves over time.

One important way to utilize this is the concept of “trading down.” Mathematical advantage helps us determine when it is appropriate to generate particular mixup scenarios. While it’s always in a player’s best interest to engage in as many mathematically advantaged mixups as possible, there are times when roughly equal scenarios become desirable. If you find yourself with a life lead, for example, it’s perfectly reasonable to open up your game and push mixups that favor neither you nor your opponent because, over time, the averages dictate that you’ll lose roughly the same amount of life. When you’re already ahead, equal losses just magnify your advantage while potentially further limiting your opponent’s options if his life drops low enough.

TGUEI.jpg
I want to thank you all for the boatload in Ad Revenue you guys just made me.

Homework:
Think about match-ups you play frequently, or those that give you particular trouble, and run the numbers on some of the most common scenarios. See how the math favors or disfavors you. If the math’s on your side, it means your opponent is reading you like a book—get better. If the math’s against you, look for alternatives which might allow you to shift the numbers in your favor, then go play somebody and test it. And, of course, report back here.

Also, next week we will be deviating from the norm a little bit. Be prepared for the worst.
 
Siegfried VS Sophitia
  • Block TAS B - Sophitia is at -10 (safe)
    • A+G*B+G now comes out at i7
    • 1B now comes out at i14
    • Mix-ups
So what do you call a mix-up where one option is safe, but the other isn't? (besides terrible)
 
This just reminds me of whenever I get floored and my friend running up to me. He's grab happy and often tries to grab as soon I stand back up, very annoying to guess.
 
Hates is my favorite poster ever

Siegfried VS Sophitia
  • Block TAS B - Sophitia is at -10 (safe)
    • A+G*B+G now comes out at i7
    • 1B now comes out at i14
    • Mix-ups
So what do you call a mix-up where one option is safe, but the other isn't? (besides terrible)

I've already thought about this Heaton, you simply read me like you read your own thoughts

The math is almost always on my side as a Sophie player, provided I'm playing on point. That's why I consider her top tier.
 
I think the toughest part about this applying this concept is discerning your opponent's perception of risk/reward in order to predict what they will do or mix up with so you can take advantage of it. Players don't vary options in equal frequencies or play the optimal frequencies (nash equilibrium), so changing the frequencies of your mixup options to adapt to theirs can give you a mathematical advantage.

I feel like I know intuitively how to take advantage of a player that isn't choosing a good mix of options -- just keep trying to randomize your mixup options with nash equilibrium frequencies, but sometimes you'll have bad luck or you'll get read from mixup attempt to mixup attempt, and it won't be enough to win every time.

In order to do better, you have to discern their option choices and their frequencies (something that few players can adapt) and then divise a harder counter to it, so your risk of losing to random chance is smaller (nothing you can do about getting read over and over except try to think a step further or behind). Divising that hard counter is very difficult in the heat of a match, you really have to know your stuff.

Or you could just adapt intuitively, treating each mixup like all options have equal r/r, making it no different than RPS, but if you want to specifically counter your opponent's strategy, you'll have to do some more thinking.

I'm actually still a game theory newb, so if I'm using "nash equilibrium" incorrectly, please let me know.

Another thing about mixups: they're necessarily inconsistent. True consistency comes from avoiding mixups entirely, I've seen. Though I doubt you can just wait around hoping for free damage from unforced errors using non-committal defensive options in SCV due to the guard crush system and the throw break chip damage.
 
I feel like sharing my game on this topic. I’ll break it in steps. The last part is probably most interesting in regards to theory.

My first goal is to structure my move list until I feel I can stand a chance against any patterned attack. For this part I need to feel that my character is all-around solid and can truly counter any type of attack viably (TJ/TS/TC). The second part is classifying players’ habits, in a general and specific way. General being if they’re more mixup/punish/interrupt oriented. Specific being what particular moves they do in certain situations, often subconsciously. The final part is coming up with an algorithm in my fighting style that best suits a particular opponent (i.e. applying actions to my classifications of the person). This is usually decided on the fly while trusting my intuition, based on my observations from round to round.
 
I've already thought about this Heaton, you simply read me like you read your own thoughts

The math is almost always on my side as a Sophie player, provided I'm playing on point. That's why I consider her top tier.

Agreed. Sophitia definitely has the mathematical advantage in that match up. I was just illustrating that even characters that are mostly gimmicks can still create mathematical advantages in their own unique ways, though the way this usually happens is unorthodox and not exactly in that characters favor, e.g. to get that particular Siegfried mix-up, I have to block TAS B, which, while safe, isn't something thrown out just because they feel like it - besides, if you've already conditioned your opponent to use TAS B when you KNOW you'll block it, you can pretty much substitute Grab/1B mixup with anything you want and it will still work.
 
I think the toughest part about this applying this concept is discerning your opponent's perception of risk/reward in order to predict what they will do or mix up with so you can take advantage of it. Players don't vary options in equal frequencies or play the optimal frequencies (nash equilibrium), so changing the frequencies of your mixup options to adapt to theirs can give you a mathematical advantage.

This is actually slightly different from what I'm discussing, and it's a great illustration of why I just factor out the human element when examining a mixup qua mixup. You'll notice in my article that I say two players of equal skill will choose correctly 50% of the time in a given 50/50. My implication is that they're not necessarily choosing each of their options with 50% frequency, but that whatever option they choose is the righti choice, whatever that may be, about half the time.

There's some potentially more complex calculation that can come from weighing the risks and rewards of options against a likely distribution of how frequently a smart person picks said option, but at that level of complexity I just "eyeball" it.

Evaluating moves/scenarios outside of the context of players is relatively straightforward and useful. Attempting to do it within that context is all kinds of difficult. Figuring mathematical advantage will always be a guideline because there's no substitute for just reading somebody like a book. Everything's safe on hit.
 
Sorry for posting back to back, but...

And now you know why (mathematically) Asta is all gimmicks.

What this really underscores is why Astaroth is so damn hard to balance. Barring characters with exceptional punishes, many of his crucial throw scenarios are basically just trade-downs. If you give him tools to zone, chip, and gain a marginal advantage before trading down, he becomes incredibly strong. If you give him nothing in that department, he basically becomes a great big coin flip (see: the difference in SC3 Asta vs. SC4 Asta).
 
In this post you delve quite a bit into game theory. While your comments on SC are generally spot on, there's some errors in how you treat game theory that actually have some important ramifications.

The scenario outlined, we have to factor player skill out of this equation. Assuming both players are equally skilled, we can assume that, over a long enough time horizon, each will guess right 50% of the time, yielding an average damage of (28+36)/2=32 average damage for Astaroth, and (65+50)/2=57.5 average damage for Cervantes if we reliably go with his easier, less damaging option.

This is completely wrong. The players will absolutely not guess each option 50 percent of the time. You are assuming that each player picks each option 50% and that the two choices are independent. While the second assumption is valid (as you said, controlling for player skill), the first is absolutely not. Rather than crank through the math in this post (I can put the math in a follow up if people are interested), I'll give a very simple example of why this is wrong using your second scenario as the difference is much more profound.

In your outline, you make Cervantes choice duck/stand, and Asta's bullrush/grab. So bullrush is a safe option now. If Cervantes does the fancy damage option, you claim that he has mathematical advantage. Well, I would say your Asta player is very foolish to use grabs 50% of the time when they are so unsafe. He should clearly use bullrush much more often. If Astaroth uses bullrush 100% of the time, Cervantes should just block 100% of the time. So Astaroth cannot do any worse than break even damage wise. Optimally, Astaroth can mostly bullrush and very occasionally grab. Cervantes will then follow a strategy of usually blocking, and very rarely ducking The damage will then be in Astaroth's favor.

The way you look at it misses one of the most critical ideas in game theory as applied to SC: a mix-up with one safe option (like bullrush in your second example where Cervantes does not step) is ALWAYS favorable.

Signia touches on some of these points, but I think in fact I will do a follow up post where I work out the math. Nothing is needed beyond high school calculus.
 
^ Note he said take the player out of the equation Nirf: this is pure mathematical theory, not how it actually works - its just an underlying guideline. If you take players out of the equation alltogether, it is just a 50:50 and mathamatics can only treat it for what it numerically represents, so it has to assume 50:50 to literally mean 50 one way 50 another.
You run a similair risk reward with any throw/mid character and don't forget Cervy has a pretty high damage output, so I'm struggling to see what you're getting at tbh, would you be able to give me something to clarify as I'm now a tad confused, lol.
 
In this post you delve quite a bit into game theory. While your comments on SC are generally spot on, there's some errors in how you treat game theory that actually have some important ramifications.

See my response to Signia. I'm not assuming that players will choose any given option half the time, but that players of equal skill will, in a 50/50 scenario, choose properly half the time without regard to what that choice might be.

You're absolutely right that the numbers shift based on the frequency of various options being chosen, but I choose to fudge the specifics here for three reasons:

1. I want to suggest a way of looking at these scenarios that is somewhat concrete without being daunting--avoiding calculus is important to me because I don't think suggesting people do that is palatable.

2. The more we bring in specific elements of player choice, the further we go down the rabbit hole of extreme complexity. What about nonstandard options? What about issues of relative health? Ring position? By assuming it's a wash with players of equal skill (which is perhaps the biggest limb on which I'm going out, so feel free to attack that), we can at least examine something tangentially related to reality.

3. My purpose is to provide a shorthand tool that can prompt some reflection and get people to consider things from a different perspective, not provide the Ultimate Flowchart.

If you want to go ahead and run some more complicated numbers, that'd be awesome and I think people might benefit greatly from it. In particular if, when doing so, you can provide a relatively simple model for others to make similar calculations.

Optimally, Astaroth can mostly bullrush and very occasionally grab. Cervantes will then follow a strategy of usually blocking, and very rarely ducking The damage will then be in Astaroth's favor.

You're not wrong here, which I think thoroughly underscores my point about why it's always in your best interest to do everything possible to force your opponent into a zero-sum mixup scenario. If Cervantes stalwartly refuses to do that, however, we're left to contend with figuring out the relative benefit he receives from the free mixup he gets upon blocking every bullrush. Those will translate into damage, but they'll also expose him to risk, ad infinitum. See why I chose to draw arbitrary lines and simplify? ;)
 
So here's the real math.
Assume Astaroth has two choices: B (bullrush) and G (grab).
Cervantes has two choices: C (crouch) and G (guard).

Damage outcomes for the payoff matrix:

BG: Asta bullrushes, Cervantes guards, = 0.
BC: Asta bullrushes, Cervantes crouches, = 28 damage.
GG: grab, guard = 36* damage.
GC: grab, crouch = -70 damage (i.e. Asta takes 70 damage).

* this number is actually incorrect to for the same reasons as the larger argument is incorrect: the grabs and breaks will not be 50/50. I use it out of laziness, in reality it's LOWER.

Asta randomly decides what to do, he bullrushes with probability p.
So he grabs with probability 1-p.
Cervantes crouches with probability q.
So he guards with probability 1-q.

The expected payoff for Astaroth is:

E = BG * p * (1-q) + BC * p * q + GG * (1-p) *(1-q) + GC (1-p) * q

So now what? Well, Asta can change p to try to maximize E, and Cervantes can change q to minimize E. The equilibrium (yes, Nash) occurs when for some value of p and q, they are at a maximum and minimum at the same time. At a max or a min, we know the slope of the curve is zero with respect to the optimizing variable, so we set:

dE/dp = 0 = BG(1-q) + BC * q - GG * (1-q) - GC * q

dE/dq = 0 = -BG * p + BC * p - GG * (1-p) + GC * (1-p)

We're lucky here in that we get to solve for every variable separately. Mathematically there are some things that need to be verified to make sure this is the solution, but yall can trust me, I'm pretty sure it's right.

q = -(BG-GG)/ (BC + GG - BG - GC)

p = -(GC -GG)/ (BC + GG - BG - GC)

This is all completely general so far btw, and can be applied to MANY situations in the game. Plugging in, we get:

q = -(0 - 36) / (28 + 36 - 0 - (-70) = 36 / 134
p = -(-70-36) / (...) = 106 / 134.

These results actually make intuitive sense. Astaroth's p is far over 50%, that is he will bullrush a lot more because it's safe. Consequently, it makes sence for Cervantes to have a low q; with Astaroth bullrushing so often, Cervantes better not duck too much. Finally, we go back and calculate E to get 7.5. I understand the numerical difference is small, but the qualitative difference here is huge.

If people are interested, I can generalize the last step to give a general formula for any 2x2 non-recursive (so for example, GI's are recursive and are more complicated to calculate) game. And I can guarantee 100% you will see that any mixup with 1 safe option is always favorable, proven mathematically.
 
^ Note he said take the player out of the equation Nirf: this is pure mathematical theory, not how it actually works - its just an underlying guideline.

I understand that, but even as a mathematical theory it is fundamentally flawed. I don't mean simplified, I mean flawed with the 50/50 assumption. "Taking the player out of the equation" does not make it 50/50: it makes it so that we assume the two variables are uncorrelated. As I said before, Hates made two assumptions in how he calculated expected values, one was fully reasonable in the context of a simple theory, the other was not.

If you take players out of the equation alltogether, it is just a 50:50 and mathamatics can only treat it for what it numerically represents, so it has to assume 50:50 to literally mean 50 one way 50 another.

Outcomes, choices etc do not need to be equally probable. It's not "just a 50/50", it's just a situation with two possible decisions. To derive an expected value for this situation, we need to assume something about how often Asta will bullrush/grab, and similarly for Cervantes. 50/50 is an assumption just like any other, just a lot more poorly justified. Assuming that different outcomes have equal probabilities, while often the case, is also often not the case.


Well, you actually did assume that each outcome resulted 50%, not just that each player picked 50% correctly. I do appreciate where you are coming from with try to simplify things. However, to quote someone famous "A theory should be as simple as possible, but no simpler". With the model you are suggesting, you are missing out on very fundamental ideas, in particular the notion of safety in half the mixup. That's my basic response to your points 2 and 3: yes of course I'm not taking everything into account with my model, but I'm taking enough into account that you see basic important points emerge. To be honest, what you do with the 50/50's is just adding and subtracting; the numbers you come up with are just sums of the characters damage outputs and don't tell you anything about the decision making matrix going on. Let me be clear: your post is very enlightening and well written. It's just that the math, at the level you've done it, in my humble opinion, adds absolutely nothing to the post.

Safety in half the mixup is a big deal: this idea is why sometimes in SC4 you will see BB go back and forth quite a few times between pairs of players: because it's reasonable damage but more importantly it's extremely safe. It's safer than TAS B in fact, because it spaces far better and gives better frames. And you do see lots of high level Soph's doing BB quite a lot, despite TAS B's massive damage advantage (yeah I know there are other reasons too before a crowd of people jump on me).

If you want Hates, I can derive a generalized "mix-up formula" which like I said will apply to a very broad swathe of mixups in the game (any 2x2, non recursive mixups) and people can apply this formula without worrying about the derivation. I'll do it tomorrow or something.
 

Live streams

3 Viewers
icedarksiege00
icedarksiege00
SCVI RANK trying for A again
0 Viewers
ViolinPhantom
ViolinPhantom
Casual Gaming. | Welcome to my chill stream hope you stay & enjoy the content!

This week's events

SoulCalibur VI EVO Japan side event
Ariake GYM-EX, Tokyo (Tokyo Big Site)
3-chōme-11-1 Ariake, Koto City, Tokyo 135-0063, Japan

Forum statistics

Threads
14,897
Messages
676,669
Members
17,200
Latest member
luca9974
Back