Hate Speech: When Worlds Collide

  • Moderator
After enduring weeks of pressure from the darkest, slimiest, most megalomaniacal corners of the community to comment on the issue of online versus offline play, I've finally acquiesced. Don't expect a simplistic "offline good, online bad, stfu scrub" treatment here, though--we're going in-depth. Why? Because Hate Speech is about not only stepping up your game and making you think, but also about peace, brotherhood, and all kinds of other new-age hippie crap. You will learn to love your online brothers or there will be consequences. Am I understood?

LUpg7.jpg
I'm not going to say which side is which. You figure it out.

Of course, every journey of goodwill and understanding requires, by definition, a journey, so today we're going on a field trip. Let's all hop in the DeLorean and travel to the backward, medieval year of 1983.

Know Your Roots

1983 was, in some respects, a landmark year: unofficial Hate Speech mascot Ronald Reagan was president, the Redskins and Dolphins were the two best teams in the NFL, and your intrepid columnist was only one year old. More importantly for our purposes, '83 saw the publication of Geoffrey and Elizabeth Loftus' Mind at Play: The Psychology of Video Games (The book can be found HERE), one of the earliest attempts to think about games and gaming in a scholarly fashion. The gaming landscape Loftus & Loftus describe is quite different from today's, but it's nevertheless pertinent thanks to a chapter called "The Arcade Subculture." Much of their audience, pointy-headed psychologist types, didn't really know what arcades were, so the Loftuses endeavored to create a genealogy of sorts to describe them that essentially claimed arcades were most closely related to dive bars. Awesome! The claim actually holds water, too. The earliest "arcade" cabinet games like Pong, SpaceWar, and so on appeared in bars before anywhere else. Over time, more and more games collected in these spaces until the drinks were marginalized or pushed out entirely, giving us the first arcades.

This is important because it reminds us that the DNA of arcades and bars are closely related. They're social spaces first and foremost. Fighting games, with their frenetic head to head action that's brief enough to churn through your quarters very quickly, were literally tailor made for this environment. As such, the earliest social norms for fighting game communities were created in and reflect an environment that's fundamentally face-to-face social in nature, and anyone who got his start in the arcade scene absorbed a code of behavior that essentially took direct personal interaction as a given.

rNYsN.jpg
Not this kind of interaction, either..this comes later. Later as in the next paragraph.

Online play, by contrast, developed much later and is far more closely related to the sort of behaviors and interactions we were seeing in the mid-90's heyday of AOL. I still fondly remember the feeling of unmitigated joy I experienced when I first logged into Battle.net for Diablo and realized that, no matter what I said to people, they wouldn't be able to punch me in the face for it. It was pure bliss for a while, but soon enough the level of discourse degenerated to the point at which I (and everyone else) had to come up with vulgarity of unspeakable creativity to even get an eyebrow raise from others, let alone adequately make the point that they were trash. It was a race to the bottom, and the general barometer for what was acceptable and unacceptable adjusted accordingly.

To be clear, it's not necessary that a person have actually been there in the early days of the arcade or of networked gaming in order for these norms to affect him or her. Modes of interaction change, but the circumstances of their birth affect everyone who comes later. This is why the main difference between online and offline players isn't a skill gap or a maturity gap, as is sometimes asserted, but instead a complete structural difference in terms of acceptable modes of interaction. We don't know how to talk to each other, so we all come off looking like assholes.

Quit it.
Now.

Offline players, next time an online player says something indefensibly over-the-top, remember where it's coming from. Online players, stop writing such egregious checks with your mouths unless you intend to show up in person in order to get them cashed, which brings us to the real bone of contention here:

Offline Play is Better Than Online Play, End of Story

This argument needs to be put to bed, and I'm certainly going to try, but first let's look back at my assertion. Note that I said "offline play" and not "offline players." In point of fact, I don't care about which group of players are "better" because it's impossible to measure and ultimately irrelevant due to the fact that online and offline are so different. I simply say offline play is better because the game itself dictates that. Think for a moment: fighting games are about consistency. Random number generation is all but absent, and moves maintain consistent properties. Lag works against this, adding a fluctuating element to every move based on the whims of the Internet gods. More importantly, Soul Calibur games are balanced for offline play. Move properties don't change when online play is selected** In fact, the entire purpose of the net code is to minimize lag and create an experience truer to offline play. Bearing that in mind, the game itself privileges offline play, so it makes sense that we as a community do, too. For those of you whose experience doesn't extend into the offline realm, I highly recommend trying to find a gathering or traveling to a tournament. Put a little Vick's VapoRub in each nostril to fend off the stench and have a blast playing the game the way it's meant to be played.

**(Editors note: In some games, like VF4 and DOA, online play actually does alter the properties. In VF4's case it was great. DOA4 didn't work out quite as well.)

TuiOn.jpg
This is a realistic portrayal of a problem faced by many tournaments. Especially in the south.

Settling the Score

So how do we reconcile the worlds of online and offline players? First, as I intimated earlier, shut up about which crop of players is better. You're playing different games. Just as importantly, Calibur veterans and the online new blood alike need to realize that each group has radically different implicit assumptions regarding how to deal with fellow gamers. Vets, be a little patient. Don't validate or engage in the shouting match, as nothing good can possibly come from it. Online players, open your minds a little. If you can't travel and compete regularly, we understand, but don't be so damn insecure about it that you feel the need to rip on those of us who do.

Homework:

How is online play potentially useful when it comes to improving? Is playing online against skilled opponents more useful than playing offline against inferior ones? How can oldschool players socialize newschool ones into the community, or is that impossible? Why am I completely wrong about everything I just said because xX_SephirothMerlin_666 would totally kill me online with Mitsu 1A spam? Lay it on me.
 
Online is Fun!
But messes up my timing. I can execute my combos better online than offline.
I also can't lay off net etiquette when playing offline.
For example because of net etiquette i've unlearnt to Bomb properly with Taki :(
 
Unless you're in Japan, you can't really take online seriously, however, for many people online is the only option they have. Granted, you can get away with plenty BS online, but you'll definitely have hard fought matches against good players, 'specially if you both have optimum connections. It's all well and good for people to recommend finding communities offline, but sometimes it just isn't there.
 
That picture offends me! The shit should get rid of bro shower and use NO shower. Motherfuckers smell and they don't even try to stop it! Sunday you want to steer clear of Big Boi or bring nose plugs
 
One thing that I have been trying to do is dispel this notion that some people have of online being completely useless. Online does have its uses such as being able to play against alot of varying playstyles that you won't be able to find playing against the same people offline, as well as experience against other characters that your offline group may not play or are good at using.

Online has other uses such as meeting new people and introducing them to this site which is what I normally do when I play online since not everyone is aware of 8wayrun's existence. Also we're still playing a video game. Don't take it so seriously to the point where you're not having fun with it. Have fun, whoop ass, talk shit, etc.

SC4 online may not be the best, but 5 bars is playable, and if the online is improved in SC5, things will blow up. Just look at what online being a legit form of play has done for Street Fighter 4.

However what we shouldn't do is bash the people who play online and vice versa. At the end of the day it's still Soulcalibur. But if you are going to talk that talk or let your mouth write a fat check, make sure your aaaaayyyyyuuussss is big enough to cash it.

I was going to bring this up on ATP since Aris talked about arcades not being dead which later went on into offline vs online which you can find here. But whether we like it or not, arcades are dead and consoles are the future for fighting games going forward. And as time progresses, online will be that legit form of play for people if it isn't already.

But what online play cannot replicate is the social experience that you get from playing a game offline or in an arcade which is where I grew up playing fighting games in. If you are someone who solely plays online, you should hear the feedback from those who came out to an offline event and had a great time. Or look at the people who went to Dev as their first offline event and had a great time. Online is cool but shouldn't be your sole means of playing a fighting game.

And always remember, if you do come to an offline event, wash yo ass! I should make a Hate Speech on how important washing your ass is. Events get hot and musty from all of the equipment and people generating heat, so if you are at an event and staying at a hotel but cannot take the time to use the shower, I will 236B you with a bar of soap and CF you into freshness.
 
Online play def helps more than hurts when played properly and against other skilled opponents. Much better than playing someone non skilled offline.
 
Online play has one unparalleled advantage over offline play - matchups. No, I'm not talking about taking advantage of lag, but rather allowing you to see possible (keyword here. I didn't say it was actual) setups for you to use and are being used against you. You're given such a wide pool of players and characters that with enough play, you'll have a pretty good, perhaps even a really solid idea of what each character can and cannot do. This is something that even the biggest offline scenes will not be able to mathematically match.

What you do then with this knowledge is to take it offline -- connect the online setups with offline lag-free conditions. Keep what translates over seamlessly. Profit. :)
 
Hates, I think one important question that needs to be asked when considering offline vs online is: "how serious are you going to play this game?"

As someone who grew up playing Calibur (and other old-school fighters) in the arcade, I sometimes find online a maddening experience. Frame traps don't work, some attacks CAN'T be blocked on reaction, ect, ect. But what if that shit doesn't matter to you? What if you want to play the game just to play the game? Obviously, lag will be less of an issue.

However, if one is aspiring to be a tournament level player, then one MUST play both offline AND online. That's right, I said it. Since SC5 won't be going to arcades, AND since the SC community is (relatively) small and spread out, online is needed to experience various playstyles while offline is used for clean up and refinement.

Who knows? Maybe Namco will develop netcode that will bring the offline and online experiences closer together thus making it so a player won't have to do as much switching. I certainly hope so. For me, online is most likely going to be my only option, BUT I'm under no delusions that I'm going to be playing the game as it was meant to be played. More importantly, I'm not taking the game anywhere near as seriously as I was 12-13 years ago.
 
Online play has one unparalleled advantage over offline play - matchups. No, I'm not talking about taking advantage of lag, but rather allowing you to see possible (keyword here. I didn't say it was actual) setups for you to use and are being used against you. You're given such a wide pool of players and characters that with enough play, you'll have a pretty good, perhaps even a really solid idea of what each character can and cannot do. This is something that even the biggest offline scenes will not be able to mathematically match.

What you do then with this knowledge is to take it offline -- connect the online setups with offline lag-free conditions. Keep what translates over seamlessly. Profit. :)
I believe you just described the workflow of two of America's best SF4 players (Latif and Wolfkrone). Wolfkrone has stated publicly that his scene at home is small so he HAS to grind out games online just for the experience. Latif has it better in Arizona, but his community isn't as large as say SoCal's, so it's a whole lot of online fighting for him as well. The experience gained from playing so many people coupled with offline refinement gives them consistent top 8 finishes. Very impressive to say the least.
 
I was fortunate enough to have a mother who conceived many children. So I can proudly say I had a brother to play offline with whenever I wasn't playing online (witch was always). After weeks and weeks I've found that playing offline was much better for all of the obvious reasons. I didn't bash online players thought because it wasn't right for the following reasons; I was one of them, an online scrub, and they may not have a fellow gamer companion to play with as I did.

When I went to my first offline tournament (At KrayzieCD's apartment) I totally got my ass handed to me by almost everyone. Thats when I really seen the light. People who never go online, and take the game seriously raped the shit outa me. Ever since online has just been a joke. And I feel as though I can say that about online gameplay because its where I originated.

Im just glad that I heard about the Sacramento State Videogame tournament when I did. Because if I had never used my freinds ID to infiltrate that tournament and score a win vs the only good player there, (Hajime) I might not have ever met the norcal soul calibur community.

Those are my online ramblings :p there was no real structure to my input.
 
I've never played online so I don't have a right to bash online players. Even if I did though, I wouldn't; it's a learning process, just like offline. And boy do I have a lot to learn, haha.
 
Online is very, VERY useful. Playing a Good player online is much more useful than playing a crappy player offline.

The distinction is basically SETUPS!! Even with 2f or 20f lag, if its consistent it can be dealt with. So basically you are required to adapt and anticipate that much more ahead, and be able to read your opponent that much better. It is not a better way to play the game, but it is like a sort of "hyperbolic time chamber" in that you are dealing with situations you wouldnt normally have to deal with.

ie. Whoahhzz live in EC, Suirad in Florida. When I play these guys, there is no amount of lag tactics, not even with throws. Both players and myself play heavily "SETUP" mind set, so if I get hit by something deemed a lag tactic, really I should have noticed what move he did before this one, and realize that leads to whatever Low/Throw/UB they were setting up.

Take these things offline, and you react better to your opponent. Why?! Because you have been accustomed to reacting to your opponents attacks/movements that much earlier, and that extra training goes a long way when dealing with GOOD offline opponents.

AMIRITE?!
 
The experience gained from playing so many people coupled with offline refinement...
Pretty much sums up my view on the benefit of online in terms of competitive play and bettering yourself as a player; learn setups and matchup experience online, then work on execution offline.

At the same time, there's a lot to be learned from going to tournaments and getting a lot of (casual) matches in with good players. If the community is friendly, the players will point out the things you need to work on; if not right away, at least hopefully after you ask them.
 
I believe you just described the workflow of two of America's best SF4 players (Latif and Wolfkrone). Wolfkrone has stated publicly that his scene at home is small so he HAS to grind out games online just for the experience. Latif has it better in Arizona, but his community isn't as large as say SoCal's, so it's a whole lot of online fighting for him as well. The experience gained from playing so many people coupled with offline refinement gives them consistent top 8 finishes. Very impressive to say the least.

If SC5's netcode is comparable to SF4 or BlazBlue, then we can have a discussion like that. Those games aren't lag free, but they're at least passable. The netcode for SC4 is laughable, so bad it'd almost be funny, if it wasn't so frustrating. Wolfkrone and Latif are simply playing a different game, where that kind of practice and experience is possible. It's not viable in SC4.

Now maybe SC5's netcode will be an improvement. It'd have to be markedly better than the post patch Tekken 6 netcode to even approach being viable in any way, imo. But I'm very skeptical about their ability to do that, unless they develop the netcode here instead of in Japan. The internet over there is just too good, they're going to get misleading results.

Harada has spoken in the past about being aware of the US limitations in internet speeds however, so he's at least aware of this issue. Which is more than I can say for a lot of Japanese developers. Whether the team comes up with a viable solution or not? Ehh........... we'll see I guess.

Hey listen, if SC5's netcode is viable I'll be right there with everyone else playing casual matches. But my definition of "viable" may differ from yours.
 

Live streams

55 Viewers
Bigpapachunk
Bigpapachunk
Wednesday Night Fights Ep.19 - eepy
4 Viewers
RareSaiyan_
RareSaiyan_
Taki Training Arc Continues | Soul Calibur Vybez | Laptop Charger Broke Still.| SCVIW/RareSaiyan
4 Viewers
VitaminDCosplay
VitaminDCosplay
WEDNESDAY NIGHT WEEBS TOURNAMENT!!!
2 Viewers
kanskaii
kanskaii
Late Night Ranked Astaroth!!!
1 Viewers
RespectVibes
RespectVibes
Casual Online Matches - Kilik

Forum statistics

Threads
14,897
Messages
676,696
Members
17,205
Latest member
isisabraham
Back