Hate Speech: When Worlds Collide

After enduring weeks of pressure from the darkest, slimiest, most megalomaniacal corners of the community to comment on the issue of online versus offline play, I've finally acquiesced. Don't expect a simplistic "offline good, online bad, stfu scrub" treatment here, though--we're going in-depth. Why? Because Hate Speech is about not only stepping up your game and making you think, but also about peace, brotherhood, and all kinds of other new-age hippie crap. You will learn to love your online brothers or there will be consequences. Am I understood?

I'm not going to say which side is which. You figure it out.​

Of course, every journey of goodwill and understanding requires, by definition, a journey, so today we're going on a field trip. Let's all hop in the DeLorean and travel to the backward, medieval year of 1983.

Know Your Roots

1983 was, in some respects, a landmark year: unofficial Hate Speech mascot Ronald Reagan was president, the Redskins and Dolphins were the two best teams in the NFL, and your intrepid columnist was only one year old. More importantly for our purposes, '83 saw the publication of Geoffrey and Elizabeth Loftus' Mind at Play: The Psychology of Video Games (The book can be found HERE), one of the earliest attempts to think about games and gaming in a scholarly fashion. The gaming landscape Loftus & Loftus describe is quite different from today's, but it's nevertheless pertinent thanks to a chapter called "The Arcade Subculture." Much of their audience, pointy-headed psychologist types, didn't really know what arcades were, so the Loftuses endeavored to create a genealogy of sorts to describe them that essentially claimed arcades were most closely related to dive bars. Awesome! The claim actually holds water, too. The earliest "arcade" cabinet games like Pong, SpaceWar, and so on appeared in bars before anywhere else. Over time, more and more games collected in these spaces until the drinks were marginalized or pushed out entirely, giving us the first arcades.

This is important because it reminds us that the DNA of arcades and bars are closely related. They're social spaces first and foremost. Fighting games, with their frenetic head to head action that's brief enough to churn through your quarters very quickly, were literally tailor made for this environment. As such, the earliest social norms for fighting game communities were created in and reflect an environment that's fundamentally face-to-face social in nature, and anyone who got his start in the arcade scene absorbed a code of behavior that essentially took direct personal interaction as a given.

Not this kind of interaction, either..this comes later. Later as in the next paragraph.​

Online play, by contrast, developed much later and is far more closely related to the sort of behaviors and interactions we were seeing in the mid-90's heyday of AOL. I still fondly remember the feeling of unmitigated joy I experienced when I first logged into Battle.net for Diablo and realized that, no matter what I said to people, they wouldn't be able to punch me in the face for it. It was pure bliss for a while, but soon enough the level of discourse degenerated to the point at which I (and everyone else) had to come up with vulgarity of unspeakable creativity to even get an eyebrow raise from others, let alone adequately make the point that they were trash. It was a race to the bottom, and the general barometer for what was acceptable and unacceptable adjusted accordingly.

To be clear, it's not necessary that a person have actually been there in the early days of the arcade or of networked gaming in order for these norms to affect him or her. Modes of interaction change, but the circumstances of their birth affect everyone who comes later. This is why the main difference between online and offline players isn't a skill gap or a maturity gap, as is sometimes asserted, but instead a complete structural difference in terms of acceptable modes of interaction. We don't know how to talk to each other, so we all come off looking like assholes.

Quit it.
Now.

Offline players, next time an online player says something indefensibly over-the-top, remember where it's coming from. Online players, stop writing such egregious checks with your mouths unless you intend to show up in person in order to get them cashed, which brings us to the real bone of contention here:

Offline Play is Better Than Online Play, End of Story

This argument needs to be put to bed, and I'm certainly going to try, but first let's look back at my assertion. Note that I said "offline play" and not "offline players." In point of fact, I don't care about which group of players are "better" because it's impossible to measure and ultimately irrelevant due to the fact that online and offline are so different. I simply say offline play is better because the game itself dictates that. Think for a moment: fighting games are about consistency. Random number generation is all but absent, and moves maintain consistent properties. Lag works against this, adding a fluctuating element to every move based on the whims of the Internet gods. More importantly, Soul Calibur games are balanced for offline play. Move properties don't change when online play is selected** In fact, the entire purpose of the net code is to minimize lag and create an experience truer to offline play. Bearing that in mind, the game itself privileges offline play, so it makes sense that we as a community do, too. For those of you whose experience doesn't extend into the offline realm, I highly recommend trying to find a gathering or traveling to a tournament. Put a little Vick's VapoRub in each nostril to fend off the stench and have a blast playing the game the way it's meant to be played.

**(Editors note: In some games, like VF4 and DOA, online play actually does alter the properties. In VF4's case it was great. DOA4 didn't work out quite as well.)

This is a realistic portrayal of a problem faced by many tournaments. Especially in the south.​

Settling the Score

So how do we reconcile the worlds of online and offline players? First, as I intimated earlier, shut up about which crop of players is better. You're playing different games. Just as importantly, Calibur veterans and the online new blood alike need to realize that each group has radically different implicit assumptions regarding how to deal with fellow gamers. Vets, be a little patient. Don't validate or engage in the shouting match, as nothing good can possibly come from it. Online players, open your minds a little. If you can't travel and compete regularly, we understand, but don't be so damn insecure about it that you feel the need to rip on those of us who do.

Homework:

How is online play potentially useful when it comes to improving? Is playing online against skilled opponents more useful than playing offline against inferior ones? How can oldschool players socialize newschool ones into the community, or is that impossible? Why am I completely wrong about everything I just said because xX_SephirothMerlin_666 would totally kill me online with Mitsu 1A spam? Lay it on me.

 

Online advice: Play with locals or broad members. That's what I do.

 

To be honest, online helps me. Like for example. I needed advice on ics for Ivy. I asked many people that master Ivy, and I got that help I needed. When I TRY to do ics online, to me it's easier to buffer in between moves. Also like Setsuka's 33b(counter):2143b.b:2143aB. Its easier online then offline. Offline you got to be more "on time". But I guess my point is, offline and online has the same amount of disadvantages and advantages. Hate mail, and other things like that is a different story.

 

This is a realistic portrayal of a problem faced by many tournaments. Especially in the south.​

Bahahahahaha I wouldn't be laughing if it wasn't soo true.

Online plays merits are :
-People who normally cannot travel/don't have friends/are unable to leave their basement due to "What's Eating Gilbert Grape" proportions are given the opportunity to play people
-You do -RARELY- see some genuinely good players and have good long sessions with them before the guy with 1 bar shows up and lags it up like crazy
-You can possibly learn a thing or two about the characters that random people play as the sheer number of participants available allows for a large variety of unique individuals doing sometimes new and inventive things
-You do not have to be shoulder to shoulder with someone who has not bathed is many moons

Cons are :
-Lag, and all of the aspects of the game it touches with its greasy, cheeto dust covered fingers (things such as moves becoming mirculously unpunishable or not being able to hit down in time for that 70000 frame 1A that you saw but couldn't do anything about)
-Verbal Abuse, as audience + anonymity = jackass (ESPECIALLY if you beat someone)

Offline is where its damn at.

 

If SC5's netcode is comparable to SF4 or BlazBlue, then we can have a discussion like that. Those games aren't lag free, but they're at least passable. The netcode for SC4 is laughable, so bad it'd almost be funny, if it wasn't so frustrating. Wolfkrone and Latif are simply playing a different game, where that kind of practice and experience is possible. It's not viable in SC4.

Now maybe SC5's netcode will be an improvement. It'd have to be markedly better than the post patch Tekken 6 netcode to even approach being viable in any way, imo. But I'm very skeptical about their ability to do that, unless they develop the netcode here instead of in Japan. The internet over there is just too good, they're going to get misleading results.

Harada has spoken in the past about being aware of the US limitations in internet speeds however, so he's at least aware of this issue. Which is more than I can say for a lot of Japanese developers. Whether the team comes up with a viable solution or not? Ehh........... we'll see I guess.

Hey listen, if SC5's netcode is viable I'll be right there with everyone else playing casual matches. But my definition of "viable" may differ from yours.

Totally agree. Yes, our broadband is ass compared to Asia's (and the rest of the developed world), but japanese devs are going to have to work around that if they want their games to sell in America. Luckily, I live in Cali and our wiring around here is pretty decent. Can't speak for the rest of the country though. Well, I hope the Japanese devs figure that shit out. They'll make more money and the community will be happy. Everybody wins!!!

 

Totally agree. Yes, our broadband is ass compared to Asia's (and the rest of the developed world), but japanese devs are going to have to work around that if they want their games to sell in America. Luckily, I live in Cali and our wiring around here is pretty decent. Can't speak for the rest of the country though. Well, I hope the Japanese devs figure that shit out. They'll make more money and the community will be happy. Everybody wins!!!

Lol, I couldn't explain that any better! :))

 

I want credit for getting that hatemail used in the article and stuff! credit is due!
thats my contribution to the community LOL

I think its worth mentioning the dude apologized the next day
he also actually asked me for tips to improve I sent him here time will tell if he comes

 

To me, SC4 without online would have been meaningless, because during these pasted years I've been unable to travel & gather up to game with my nearest community players but only once. So online made-up for the miraculous 90$ I'd spend on SC4.

I'm consider myself a "core-player", not top-player, not average-player, etc. I began playing Arcades when MK1 was released, I went through lots of fun while learning the concept of competitive gaming until I got the hang of it during SC2 times. Yes, it took me that long, I was very young, but still I was already good enough to beat Battletoads on NES, heheh, try beating that game ;)

Anyway, playing SC4 online gave me lots time to experiment many things by playing lots of random good & new players. I could play & play without turns. During my offline days I wasn't able to participate & practice that much at tournaments because there where too many players playing for few consoles & because when the tournaments started I'd had the luck of having my 1st opponent being the winner of the tournament, which lead me to loser bracket right at the beginning of the every tournament I'd went, tough-luck huh?

My opinion about SC4 in general is that Namco made it slooooower on purpose to compensate for the lag they weren't able to handle with their netcode, & sooooo slow offline lol sooooo sloooooow wtf.

Playing online too long under the pressure of lag & spam have sharpen my reactions, it really did. But when playing offline after online, it hinders my timing on everything, but after some matches I get timing back.

Online is ok. But lag dose fuck-up many times...

anyway, I got bored typing..

 

That's right, I said it. Since SC5 won't be going to arcades, AND since the SC community is (relatively) small and spread out, online is needed to experience various playstyles while offline is used for clean up and refinement.

Given the obvious and dramatic differences between the experience of online and offline play, can you elaborate on precisely what elements of playstyles transfer into that environment? Put more simply, what kind of things transcend lag tactics? How should we look for them? What's the most efficient way to capitalize on online play?

 

. . . CF you into freshness.

My hero.

 

I'm sure people would have a higher opinion of online players if they didn't receive so much hate mail when playing online. Granted, as you say they're different experiences, but with the exception of a brief period when I was 13 I have always been a gentleman and a good sportsman online. GG's, tips of the hats and subsequent beat-downs all delivered smack-talk free.

I think there is a maturity gap when your reward for a victory is being told to do some immoral thing with certain parts of your body and broken glass. We have to remember however that this maturity gap doesn't represent everyone who plays online, and also remember that while we can't change how people will act we can decide how we will react.

 

See, I’m making this point at the chance of getting riled up. To me, SC4 Online was the greatest attempt at trolling that came from a game company. There has been so much stress caused by SC4 online that I’m surprised no one has sued Namco for it. Online is so much bullshit that I find it bewildering that anyone could defend it. Do you know what you gain from forming strategies based around online play in SC4? Delusion.

From a competitive standpoint, there is no good that will come out of playing SC4 online.

This is a virtual breeding ground for scrubs and it should never, never be taken seriously. But here’s the thing. It’s a competitive fighting game. So why even start playing online? Why do it to yourself? Nothing is gained. The lag in SC4 is so terrible that the game doesn’t even resemble itself any more. The classy “rules” are subject to bias to whoever is loud and obnoxious enough to enforce them. This makes people play the role of deputy. They exclaim how you SHOULD play, what moves AREN’T allowed. Can you imagine what kind of complex this creates in a game where the aim is to crush your opponent through exploitation?

Bullshit.

What’s even worse is when people actually take enjoyment out of winning online matches, as if it makes them on the same planet as some of the great tournament players.

Someone said you can learn new strategies playing online and taking them offline. I won’t say this isn’t true, but the price you pay for this “experience” comes at the cost of frustration. What you gain is a dim vision of what might be possible and it is immediately offset by anyone who has good reaction time offline.

I do agree with Malice that it’s a great place to meet new likeminded people and bring them to 8WR. But it is SUCH A TEASE when want you want to really put your skills to the test. Sorry, you can’t do 80% of your movelist. Aw well. Here’s to SC5 netcode being good.. and maybe when the time is right I’ll have a scene booming here in Ohio.

 

Online is good for learning the ropes properly, and for developing a play style that fits you. I believe this is only good for online. Offline is smooth, precise, all around better feeling. I have fought multiple people both offline and online. What ive learned is people develope specific playstyles. I curb stomp some people who i had trouble with online, and I get reamed by others. The whole Offline vs. Online is a personal dispute. Everyone will have a different answer. There will always be the good and the bad players. The spammers and abusers of online play, as well as the legit, try hard people. I think what im trying to say is clear. personal preference reigns supreme here. Personally, I like offline for the precise and accurate inputs. I cant say that i dont play online though. The tactics between both are different, but i enjoy the community, well when its not a spamming Mitsurugis 1A. XD

 

From a competitive standpoint, there is no good that will come out of playing SC4 online.

This is a virtual breeding ground for scrubs and it should never, never be taken seriously. But here’s the thing. It’s a competitive fighting game. So why even start playing online? Why do it to yourself? Nothing is gained. The lag in SC4 is so terrible that the game doesn’t even resemble itself any more. The classy “rules” are subject to bias to whoever is loud and obnoxious enough to enforce them. This makes people play the role of deputy. They exclaim how you SHOULD play, what moves AREN’T allowed. Can you imagine what kind of complex this creates in a game where the aim is to crush your opponent through exploitation?

I don't agree with this. I know where you're coming from, because when I first started playing offline, I couldn't go back to online. I HATED it with a passion. And I'd moan about it constantly. But the fact is I learned to play this game online. I learned a lot about combos and spacing and techtraps, and about other characters' potent tools.

Most importantly I met some really good players online, and the most important thing that happened is that we talked to each other. All the time, about techniques, and traps, and ways to shut down options of other characters. A lot of what we discussed wasn't right, but we were learning so much by bouncing ideas off each other and then putting them into practice.

Once we started playing offline, we could put a lot of the stuff into practice. We could start playing without any online constraints, using laglows and spam tactics, and we quickly learned which things were actually effective/ineffective rather than just theoretically so.

And sure, it was difficult to go back to online after this, because it was so much less fun and not much more we would learn from it. But I still think online has a lot of potential for training and learning about the game, especially for newer players, so long as they communicate.

 

Okay at first I was reading this article and I didn't like where it was going, then it went exactly where I thought it wasn't going and I liked it. As far as messages like that I just write of anyone that sends that sort of stuff to me as a scrub regardless of their skills because if you can't keep your being a bitter looser in check then you need to spend more time in anger management classes than playing SC. Mind you I am probably one of the most sour looser's you will ever meet and I may call you many derogatory things if you ninja whomp my ass HOWEVER I will never send those insults to you in a message or say them over a mic because really I'm not really attacking you but I'm grappling with my inability to overcome. (Unless you are a well known friend in which I will turn on my mic so I can serenade you with my streams of frustrated curses.) ;) Have I had disagreements with players online? Absolutely, however as human beings and adults we need to learn to agree to disagree and no matter how heated a discussion gets never sink so low as to use derogatory four letter words that require absolutely no tact. (Instead if you have a disgruntled person attack them with wit and cunning, cut them in such a way that they won't even know their bleeding, because frankly it makes you look like a better person and makes your opposition look like a jack ass.) Peace and love people. :)
P.S if there are any typos or grammatical errors I'm sorry it's early.

 

(apparently, wall of text is something normal among Seigfried mains, but no one is forcing anyone to read this, so in the words of a wise man "Shut up, Meg.")
From a Noob perspective:
What i like about online is that online is what brought me here. I was referred to join by another far more skilled player who, i suppose, was either a really nice guy or took pity on me. Maybe both. Not sure. Anyways. While I agree with opinions expressed by better players, that high level can not truly be achieved by playing online, we can (under the right context with the right player with the similar goal) actually learn the game to play it offline. Though, that said, i am rather concerned about by what degree online changes the game.
The first gathering i went to, i was smashed because i was unwittingly (someone told me this AFTER the gathering) was setting up lag frame traps. this leads me to believe that: playing a good player online can help you learn, but the lag will give a false concept of set ups and kind of breaks the experience, especially if you're a new guy from the woodwork. I feel that to get anything good out of lag you have to know what the lag is doing. I was and am not entirely too great at that. Caused a few misunderstandings that way. (Sorry. I'm a work in progress.)
And, from what i have experienced, the old school players have been nothing less than polite when approached in a respectful manner. These people don't bite, but do require standard communication skills. (I know. Generation "text each other while in the same room". Perish the thought) I suppose my input to the third question is more aimed at my noob brethren. The mods, and the (notice the 'and'... i'm not calling all mods or better players old) old school players, are the guys who know how to play the game, and they are kind of doing the best they can as far as communication goes. The simple fact of the matter is, they know more about this than we do. I was in a different forum regarding a different game, and a player expressed how he felt the moderator he was speaking to was being a snob... I suppose one can possibly draw that conclusion when we are given a different perspective constantly from one who knows more than we do and i'm almost positive such a conversation has taken place in other places. (I used to teach Martial Arts... It has happened to me.) I think that we shouldn't see correction as snobbery as much as it is what is is. Correction. "You're wrong", might be a little harsh, but then again, Mr. Myagi came across the wrong way making Daniel-San fixing his yard to teach him how to defend himself. (disclaimer: No mod has ever used such blunt language on this website to my knowledge) The fact is, us newschool guys should listen and take in stride what we get from the older generation because, look. They've been at this longer. We should also take our opinions and not see them as truth because, being noobs, we dont know it all, and when we suck it up and realize the correction is actually a good thing, communication between generations wouldn't be so difficult. Just a thought.
In responce to the last question: Mr. xXxgEnEr!cAn!mErEfEreNcExXx is a beast. He can mix up 1A and 66B,B, and the grabs, Hates. Get it straight. He's a beast at Soul Calibur... Especially while downloading porn to create an artificial lag... And IF by some chance, this Mitsurugi GOD loses, its because he's curing cancer and having sex with super models...

 

True online can not compare to offline. However, one must remember what kind of thing we are talking about here...

A VIDEOGAME!

No matter how many tournaments, no matter how many butt hurt fans, no matter who is acting like what, at the end of the day we are talking about a game. There are people who just play online just for fun. Yet people bitch and moan because they fought in 11 tournaments and it messes up their concentration on online.....then do not bloody play online if it pisses you off that much.

Sure, it can become frustrating when people are cheap or lag rears it's unwanted ugly face. However, negate those 2 problems and it is a fun experience only meant to be just that, a fun experience. Why people do not get that perplexes me. It boggles my mind on any series (not just soul calibur), that these are games and you do not need to waste your life worrying about a mechanic or two that is not perfect.

No games are perfect, period. It may seem that way but it is simply not true. Is it a shame? Yes. Is it the end of the bloody world? Far from it. That being said, I would like to see online become more properly handled in SC5. For now, just make due with what we have and for the love of all that's decent, just enjoy the game in front of you instead of bitching and moaning that it is a travesty on the face of gaming.

Also, I respect the level of thought that is put into this weekly rambling. I mean that, seriously. Keep it up Hates.

 

Also, I respect the level of thought that is put into this weekly rambling. I mean that, seriously. Keep it up Hates.

Much appreciated!

To address the substance of your post, I think people get caught up in the little differences between online and offline for a number of reasons, but a major component is simply how one defines fun. For me, there's a richness of experience that the game provides offline which is pleasurable and, just as importantly, that richness makes my victories themselves seem more fulfilling (and my losses more agonizing, of course, which is actually a perverse part of the aforementioned fun).

In other words, online just doesn't give me the high (look up an emotion called "fiero" or the concept of "hard fun," both likely to appear in future columns) that offline play does, and that's primarily due to technological issues.

 

Online creates more problems for you in the long run than good. You screw up timing on moves because you are use to buffering in commands, you throw out unsafe moves because they don't get punished online. You lack the ability to duck grabs because online even if you see the grab coming you don't have the ability to duck so you have to mash and try to break it. The majority of players you see online aren't near the level of tournament players so any match-up knowledge you get doesn't do much good offline (learned that the hard way in MVC3)

I'm not trying to bash online, mainly because that's where I started from and if it wasn't for it then I wouldn't have gone to offline tournaments. Its just that people have to realize that it's just a completely different game. Even if you play people who you met offline and you both know how the game works the game is still watered down. How often have you played someone and when they grab you for the RO, you break it and you still get a RO? It's little things like that, that destroy the game to me.

 

I don't agree with this. I know where you're coming from, because when I first started playing offline, I couldn't go back to online. I HATED it with a passion. And I'd moan about it constantly. But the fact is I learned to play this game online. I learned a lot about combos and spacing and techtraps, and about other characters' potent tools.

Most importantly I met some really good players online, and the most important thing that happened is that we talked to each other. All the time, about techniques, and traps, and ways to shut down options of other characters. A lot of what we discussed wasn't right, but we were learning so much by bouncing ideas off each other and then putting them into practice.

Once we started playing offline, we could put a lot of the stuff into practice. We could start playing without any online constraints, using laglows and spam tactics, and we quickly learned which things were actually effective/ineffective rather than just theoretically so.

And sure, it was difficult to go back to online after this, because it was so much less fun and not much more we would learn from it. But I still think online has a lot of potential for training and learning about the game, especially for newer players, so long as they communicate.

I agree. I put 10 months of pure practice learning tech traps, Frame traps, the Numerical system and the In's and Out's of every character but Zas and Voldo (Yes I know voldo is high tier...)

I've been working my ass practicing day in and day out with Vader and Rock, learning which frames are best for online and which aren't. I've also learned many Tech and Frame traps online by fighting really good players. So in the end simply by playing online that makes me a bad person at SCIV? Granted I never entered a tournament but that doesn't mean by any shape or definition I'm a "Scrub"

I know about lag tactics and I know most lag hits get GI or JI offline. I know how to duck grabs and I know how to do mix-ups. I poured endless amount of time in nothing but Practice and Standard Player match and I honestly feel I've progressed a VERY long way from when I started.

I knew a great deal of what nearly each character can do in the hands of a Pro. Hell once I got my ass grilled by a really good vader, rock, and setsuka player it really motivated me to practice and started using Rock/Vader.

I understand offline is far more fluent that online, But I also enjoy the value of online play minus the douchebags. But EVERY game has those type of players whether it's CoD or even Blazblue. I respect the skill of players whether they are playing online or offline at local tournaments. I can't judge a player by whether they play online or offline and I wish the SC community wouldn't argue over which "side" is better.

I may be rambling now but what I'm saying is this. Online HAS made me into a great player regardless of lag or not. I restrain myself from using lag tactics online because i personally think it's unfair and or easily punished offline. I don't want my lows to become a crutch that will make my gamestyle weaker when playing offline.

So in the end can we all just be happy with the fact we like SCIV and enjoy the damn game at least until SCV comes out. Were all Fighting game fans and we should show more respect to each other whether you are a Tournament player or just now learning the ropes. Nobody's life is more important than the other and I think that's what we forgotten the most when playing Video games. We always have to find some way to be more "Superior" than the other guy instead of just sitting back and having fun.

 

Much appreciated!

To address the substance of your post, I think people get caught up in the little differences between online and offline for a number of reasons, but a major component is simply how one defines fun. For me, there's a richness of experience that the game provides offline which is pleasurable and, just as importantly, that richness makes my victories themselves seem more fulfilling (and my losses more agonizing, of course, which is actually a perverse part of the aforementioned fun).

In other words, online just doesn't give me the high (look up an emotion called "fiero" or the concept of "hard fun," both likely to appear in future columns) that offline play does, and that's primarily due to technological issues.

Well I am more so just perplexed over the sheer die hard fandom that quickly turns to butt hurt obsession. How many people have you met in this or any other series that take this kind of stuff more seriously than is needed? I'm guessing quite a bit.

As for the debate of on vs offline, I play both but then again my connection is half n half and I play only with my friends who have fair connection. This is only just to dick around and have fun. Everyone likes what they like, but it is obnoxious to feed the fire to an argument that is pointless to begin with considering it is a new feature. New features tend to not bode so well, which is why they should at least add patches. But hey, what are ya gonna do huh?

I'm also aware of what you mean by Fiero/Hard fun. Those would be interesting topics to discuss, if you would like to have in depth conversation about such a thing or anything else, I would be happy to help with that.