High/Low Ground spammers

A

Asunder22

[08] Mercenary
Not talking about your average, every day spammer. People who mindlessly spam the same attacks over and over are easy targets. A good mix up ground spammer on the other hand...

Seems the higher ranks are all using the same tactics. Get your opponent on the ground first, then proceed to mix up high low perpetual incapacitating attacks, until the round ends.

Some might say, "well just figure out the combo and block accordingly". Advice like that is of course totally irrelevant because at that point it's at least 50% guesswork. It's utterly impossible to know whether this person is going to start with a low attack, or high/mid attack. Toss in a certain amount of internet delay, and welcome to Groundspam Calibur. It's a different game standing, because then at least you have a chance of retaliation, 8w running, and any other number of tactics. On the ground, you're just repeatedly bounced, stunned and knocked back down, from your prone position.

It wouldn't be so bad if ALL the attacks didn't re-stun, or re-knock you down...over and over. If you happen to miss a block, you're back on the ground, and the cycle repeats itself until you die.

I'm hovering around Level 50 at the moment, with about a 65% win rate. Anyone with any experience fighting these higher rank ground jugglers would be appreciated. What tactics do you employ to escape this favored tactic. And also, are there certain characters who are better at escaping the ground juggle than others?
 
Haha I have to say that I am quite guilty of what you say. Lv62 cass main right now, hovering right around 77-80% win rate, and I use that very method to get rid of the spamming kiliks/cervys/maxis. Yea, I know how annoying it is to be on the receiving end, but that's how this game is played really.

Whenever I play someone who simply does not fall prey to my "smash n00bs" style, then I know I'm up against good competition (which I very much enjoy) and I will not continue in that manner because I know it's insulting to a good player. Sometimes it'll take a round or two for me to adjust, usually resulting in my loss, but eventually I'll wise up and switch to serious mode and start either playing really safe and waiting for advantage, or throwing a large variation of moves at relatively safe opportunities in order to generate advantage if they are playing really safe. Variation cracks defenses eventually - just have to know your character's movelist inside and out and not leave yourself too wide open. Know what quick moves you can dish out that have special properties such as stun either on counter or normal, and use those to your advantage.

Honestly, the best way to avoid it, I would think, is to either start it up before your opponent can do the same, or play characters with a really good punish game (Sisters come to mind...) so you can turn the tables the instant they guess wrong on wakeup. Did you happen to guess right and block that mitsu 2KB? 236B that spamming bitch - now he's on the ground trying to get up. Stay in his face and don't let him. Mix it up and it's an easy win for you.

Another good way to get out if you're on the receiving end is to wakeup with a jump attack of some sort (generic 8B works well). If you think about it, 8B automatically eliminates 2 of their mixups right off the bat: low 1A, and throws. Even if they nail you with a high-powered mid, you'll take less damage and not get stunned into another combo since you're already in the air. People simply don't use this option enough - it works and works well. Also, don't get up right away since this game will never force you to stand up, so roll around for a while and then get up when they least expect - preferably on their backside. On the ground, at least their hits won't do so much damage if they happen to hit you, and they can't juggle you or stun you or hit with high dmg mids/highs that can hit only a standing opponent.

Hope that in some way helps to kick my ass if you ever meet me online.
 
Cubby said:
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Also, don't get up right away, roll around for a while and then get up when they least expect - preferably on their backside. On the ground, at least their hits won't do so much damage if they happen to hit you, and they can't juggle you or stun you or hit with high dmg mids/highs that can hit only a standing opponent.

Hope that in some way helps to kick my ass if you ever meet me online.
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I concur on staying down. Unless you're against the wall or on the edge their ground attacks will usually push you further away from them. You really want to switch your options up, though, you'll get beat down if you get predictable.
 
Thanks for the reply.

You've touched on some viable options. All of which I've tried at one point or another. When it comes to skilled player vs skilled player, the game is a lot of fun. I don't especially enjoy smashing a bunch of novices, which in all honesty a lot of my wins come from. It's unavoidable.

The problem with running into good players nowadays is they all employ the high/low mix-up ground game. This would be fine if it was reduced to a few ground hits. But they never stop there. They abuse it for 80% of your health bar until they get the win. Sure, sometimes i see the combo coming and can shift momentum, and sometimes I can even GI the impending sweep i see coming. But the guesswork is just too high for such a skill intensive game.

Jump attacks work sometimes, it'll work against that annoying sweep re-knock down, but if they are throwing a mid combo your way when you do it, you're now being air juggled. Big gamble.

Rolling works sometimes, as you delay enough to throw some people off as they perform a high/mid mix up. But the really good players will just spam low until you get up, and by doing so, you take a lot more damage.

I love the game, have for years, I just wish it wasnt so abusable on the ground. I think making GI effect all attacks, as opposed to having a special low GI would go a long way in combating this problem.

The people who win 90% of their games with this tactic will argue the point, and I expect as much, hell even I can pick a character with a strong ground wake up mix, (soph, mitsu, lizardman, etc) But I just don't want to. It's pretty tragic that I may be forced to do that just to compete at higher levels.
 
It's pretty tragic that I may be forced to do that just to compete at higher levels.
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Tragic? There's no honor in fighting games. It's there for you to take advantage of.
 
^seconded, to a degree.

Asunder, how are you trying to get up? Are you teching, siderolling, aiming for a WR?
 
Welcome to higher-level fighting game tactics. Enjoy your stay.

Well, for actual live games, anyway - I'd imagine there'll be some sort of 'etiquette' set up soon by trial and error. I know Tekken 5DR has a kind of net courtesy where certain moves are recognized to be banned or allowed only once. If lobo comes in here he can explain it better than I can.
 
As a Sieg player, I tend to mixup with either 1AA, 3 or a throw... so I'm totally guilty of forcing a mix up on grounded people.
 
more times than not it makes sense to stay grounded, see what happens, then get up. that's not just high level play, that's a general rule. tech traps dont work when there's no tech. wake-up mixups don't work when the opponent doesn't wake up.

worst case scenario, you eat a hit, but get knocked away so you can safely get up.


btw: that's not spamming, that's strategy. totally different monsters.
 
I'm just a little confused about the high/low mixup you're speaking of. Granted, I'm a fairly new player to serious gaming, but from what I understand, it just seems like normal gameplay, just like everything else that may be considered cheap in a fighter. We just have to learn to counter them.

It annoys me to know end when it happens to me as well, but I just chalk it up to lack of experience and try to figure out a way around it.
 
Ok, so nobody caught it yet I see. If it's high/low, there is no mixup, just block low. Now mid/low, that's another story.
 
I think this was in reference to low/mid/high wake up type stuff... not just specifically high and low.
 
Archangel said:
Welcome to higher-level fighting game tactics. Enjoy your stay.

Well, for actual live games, anyway - I'd imagine there'll be some sort of 'etiquette' set up soon by trial and error. I know Tekken 5DR has a kind of net courtesy where certain moves are recognized to be banned or allowed only once. If lobo comes in here he can explain it better than I can.
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...You're kidding? I guess there may be some banned moves in Tekken but seriously, that makes little sense >_> Although, I guess online play makes little sense anyway.
 
I'm guilty of it, proud of it too. Sophitia 4 aaa and 236 aa are my bread and butter. Once my opponent gets smart enough to block low I go into 4ab mix ups. 2nd hit can ring out quite easily.
 
Syrpiektre said:
^seconded, to a degree.

Asunder, how are you trying to get up? Are you teching, siderolling, aiming for a WR?
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I understand that some people use it, and are proud of it. The bottom line is, it works. Whatever works is going to be taken advantage of. And anyone around level 60 and above knows this first hand.

This isn't a crusade to get anything "banned", or considered cheese tactics, my concern was figuring out how to escape these traps.

As per your question Syrpiektre, Ive tried literally everything, and literally can be taken quite literally. I've fought enough of the higher tier to get plenty of practice. Sometimes I get lucky with a momentum breaker and can turn the tables. Hell, I even beat the #2 ranked guy this weekend. But in all honesty, there was a bit more luck in that fight than i'd really like to admit.

My problem is doing it consistently. From what I gather, you need a bit of luck to accidentally pick the right move to block. If I stay grounded, I get torn apart. The good players usually have a 2 hit combo that will hit you twice on the ground, ad infinitum. So I've found that staying grounded is folly.

So that basically leaves either popping right back up into a trap, or eating a hit or two on the ground to disrupt the mid/low juggle. Problem is, the good mixup ground jugglers have combos that are so forgiving and easy to do. (mitsu, soph) that even if you delay the stand up, the next AA, AB spam will just floor you again.

I suppose it would vary depending on who you're playing and who you're playing against. Just thought I'd pick the minds of the community, and get some input.

Thanks for all the replies.
 
Asunder22 said:
Thanks for the reply.

It's pretty tragic that I may be forced to do that just to compete at higher levels.
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What are you talking about dude??? Fighting games are always about High Low Mid mix ups... and wake up or "Oki" games have been around forever.... How is it tragic you may be forced to do the same?? I got news for you , YOU better learn to do the same or you'll never compete at a High level... You cant bitch because someones using a mix up.... Theres nothing tragic about it... everyone has high mid low mix ups... If you think thats bad you obviously havent competed at a high level cause it gets alot worse then High/Low mix up.... What exactly would you like them to do ? Wait for you to get up then say ok lets start fighting again now....
 
The only problem I have with mid/low mixup online is that I can't duck the lows on reaction.
Sophie 1AA does 61 damage and you can't duck it reactivley online at all, GG?

Reasons like that why online is you know, kind of stupid.
 
SkatanMilla said:
The only problem I have with mid/low mixup online is that I can't duck the lows on reaction.
Sophie 1AA does 61 damage and you can't duck it reactivley online at all, GG?

Reasons like that why online is you know, kind of stupid.
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Yeah, but there's no reason to complain if its just online. Online is for showing off custom characters, not for playing serious.
 
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