Hilde Guide & Strategy Discussion

Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

I want to toss out a random thought:

Hilde (left) and opponent (right) facing eachother. Wall Behind both players, wall to right, RO area to left.

Would you step right before releasing C3 B, so that you would have a better chance for RO?

Would that be considered prioritizing RO's?

I consider that to be Positioning/Planning for RO. Something that takes next to no effort and has natural evasive properites for wiff punish (step). If it's blocked, I don't get crushed and give up the game, I'm even in a slightly better position for RO, since if I step and C3B again, he'll be even more lined up with Ring to his back.

I mean, at the end of the day, we might be agreeing but using different words that are misinterpreted. =p

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

of course, with enclosed walls, the fact that Hilde's "efficiency" drop can't be disputed. To completely discredit Hilde's ring out is not a good argument at all. However, not focusing on ring out I think will serve Hilde better in the long terms (for consistency sake of zeroing opponents HP) especially in stages WITH walls.

My point about charges vs RO planning is simple as positioning yourself to be punishing them with a RO, or positioning yourself to just punish them with the charge combo. The difference is that if you plan game around RO, you'll need to wait for the position to RO, where as for the Combo, you don't really have to worry about what's behind them (empty space or walls) and punish on the spot. If you hold back on the opportunity of punishment and waiting for that RO, you might just lost the chance for your combo. What I am trying to say, don't wait to punish so they'll get ROed, punish whenever you can. That goes back to my original post about don't horde your charges too much.

Thus, with Hilde's ridiculous combo sets, it is not surprising that playing both way would lead to similar result (similar KO/RO ratio). The only real difference occurs only in ones mind set.

My post came a bit late, after i posted mine i saw your scenario.

In your scenario, it's natural to go to right, but as I am playing Hilde, I don't step right because I am ultimately planning a RO, but I am planning to evade the attack and punish him. I mean if I am really planning for RO in that scenario, I'd most likely bait him to edge (me facing the edge) to B+G. As i've said before, my really conscious RO are my B+Gs for odd reasons.

Once again, as I've said this in this post, the outcome would most likely be ultimately the same (we both rings him out with a C2AA), but the difference is really just in the mind set.

I think I would also like to point out, that Hilde's tiering is very volatile, not only she has a huge difference online/offline, she also has a huge difference in terms of stage selections. I under stand why some people think RO doesn't really equal skill, because afterall, the HP is not completely depleted before you are declared lost. I have nothing to argue about that because taking my ratio against my room mate for example, the 1/3 RO i have against him really are unknown branches of events down a tree diagram. it could be either event 1: RO, event 2: Not RO, with event 1 terminating the match with him a lost, or event 2 which leads to further events in probability that is unknown to us.

I'd say Hilde is mid tier at the very least, and top tier at the best stages (tiny stage with no walls). Stages with 2/3 wall 1/3 space would probably still make Hilde pretty dangerous, and that also depends on the size of the stage. There are so many factors that contributes to Hilde's tier but within game context with only 2 impossible RO stages, I think Hilde is pretty dangerous because of the RO factor that comes as a result of her executing her bread and butter combos.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

I'll just say that I plan for ring outs quite abit, but if I don't land them I already have many other ideas of what I'm going to follow up with anyway. C3B is the worst ringout move she has I feel, just because the people I play know how to step it extremely well or just block it in general. Her best ringout option in my opinion is off of C3A, which you can easily plan for by going for a auto GI / step kill-> C2BB -> C2AA. If the block you are still at +4 which is pretty special in SC4 considering how they made so many moves give less advantage.

I use Fei's idea of what planning is, because I will position myself so that when I step (or FC C2B, or C3A assuming only distance ringouts) they will get hit out. Also her B+G throw is probably one of her worst ringout moves simply because it's easy to read, and any alert player will simply break B throw. It's way too obvious for any character to try that kind of thing.

With that said, Error you are correct. Don't give up a chance to punish just because you are obsessed with a ringout. They come naturally, however spacing and positioning is an integral part of a fighting game... so use that to your advantage. There are many times when neither person is throwing a blow, or when someone is on the ground and you can get a big step to place them towards an edge, or you step towards the right direction to ring them out when your opponent throws a verticle etc. Why give up a ring out you could have had if you stepped to the right and punished instead of the left?
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

What I am trying to say, don't wait to punish so they'll get ROed, punish whenever you can.
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I agree 100%.

I think I would also like to point out, that Hilde's tiering is very volatile
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Hilariously true!

Also her B+G throw is probably one of her worst ringout moves simply because it's easy to read, and any alert player will simply break B throw.
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I agree! You set yourself up for failure if you purposely put yourself at this type of disadvantage (back to rings edge) since your back is to absolute death you're just begging to eat a low or mid RO move (even various other throws). However, if you're pushed to the corner via thier pressure, it might not be a bad idea to do high risk high reward senario too. =p

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

IMHO, the "best" thing to do against someone who can break throws would be to use A+G when your back is to the edge instead of B+G. Assuming it connects in the first place, it's practically guaranteed against anybody who knows about Hilde's B throw. It'll give you enough time to get away from the edge and charge your A or B move.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Fully agreed Dullyanna, though some characters have tech crouch (or jump) moves that can ring out from the front too. For instance, if I know someone is going to try and throw me or attack when I have slight disadvantage I will throw out a 7K if their back is to the edge. Even trading means that they are rung out. Granted I mix it up with 2A+K, 4AB, and a variety of other moves that can ring out so it makes people pretty scared.

Though I'm sure most of you know all that, just saying it just for discussions sake.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

@ Ceirnian
I'm sure most of you know all that
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Don't ever assume that! Just teach us all that you know. You are offering very sound advice =p And 7K is awesome =p

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

7K is indeed awesome lol... one of my most used kick for evasion, and baiting.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

errorrrr said:
7K is indeed awesome lol... one of my most used kick for evasion, and baiting.
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I actually need to get out of the habit to abuse 7K to evade, as I keep on cashing in highs (especially against Amy & Ivy). Stupid habits...
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

@Ciernian: Very true. If they're savvy enough to avoid your throws entirely, a good jumping K or a 4B+K to the face will work just as well, if not better. A+G is merely a better throw in that situation (Against higher level players), and not necessarily the best move. If we're willing to start up Super Theory Fighter: Turbo SC$ edition, then you're possibly more likely to connect with the B+G throw (Assuming you hit with it in the first place) after they've been stabbed through the gut every previous time they pushed you to the edge.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

So you're telling me that you would take the chance to break a throw that would deal you abit of damage vs the throw that would instantly kill you? The only time it's worth even trying to break A throw against Hilde (or any other character who can ring you out with their B throw) is when you would die from either throw anyway.

Jumping K = 7K / 8k. 4B+K is good but without that tech jump you could be thrown out of it if they have any advantage. 4AK is good when you know they will block the first it since you can delay the second hit or not do it at all once they understand how dangerous the kick is. For whatever reason even on normal hit I think that kick rings them out.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

If I wanted to force a B+G throw, typically I always test the waters with 2A. On hit, you're at enough advantage for uninteruptible almost anything =p So most decent players stop attacking giving you a quick throw window. It nabs a free win or two everynow and then over just tossing out a B+G.

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

@Ceirnian: No, I'm trying saying that anybody who knows jack shit about Hilde would B break most of the time, since risking the match with an A break would be stupid... Unless they've been eating the A throw all day, in which they might get caught with the B-throw, knocking them out of the ring or much closer to the edge. And yes, 4B+K should only be used when you have the advantage.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

What Dully said happens a lot now. If you stay on your toes and mix both throws together within a match, you'll screw your opponents head up royally. I played about four hours with a bunch of my friends, all Hilde. I mixed up my throws consistently, using B+G in the middle of the ring, and A+G on the outsides of the ring. Then I switched them, and it just becomes to hard to break. One of my friends got gutsy and started to Just GI my throws since he was tired of eating them >_<. Then he started missing.

As far as my play (and opponents) have evolved, we go on this curve. From "total slaughter" to "only ringouts" back and forth. Also, we've thrown out the 'ROs are cheap' thing because it IS a big part of Hilde's game: she pretty much gets moved to wherever the opponent wants you while charging, and then if you get any of the combos started, you've pushed back VERY VERY HARD. I can also bait enemies by dropping a charge to do other moves. Most often this comes with FC C3 B B A, I'll have both L3 A and L3 B, use the B, and drop the A. The best example I can think of that I use less is 3 B A, with an L3 A. I should probably try 3 B, and then letting go of A for the L3, but that's for tonight. If you've been sitting on a button, don't NOT use it just because you need to keep a charge.

Also, for whoever suggested that "C3B, 44K, ..." combo shouldn't be considered "bread and butter," I agree somewhat. More just for the fact that I feel I get more mileage from using the charge attacks at more opportune times before that.
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Also, for whoever suggested that "C3B, 44K, ..." combo shouldn't be considered "bread and butter," I agree somewhat.
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A B&B combo is the best juggle available for a given move. The 44K etc etc after the launch is B&B.

What you mean, I'm guessing, is that you're saying other moves are important to Hilde. I agree. However, that does not change what her B&B combo is.

~Fei
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

IgnisPhaseOne said:
As far as my play (and opponents) have evolved, we go on this curve. From "total slaughter" to "only ringouts" back and forth.
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Totally agree it's the same for me.

IgnisPhaseOne said:
Also, we've thrown out the 'ROs are cheap' thing because it IS a big part of Hilde's game:
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As the game is based on two ways (three if you will with time out) to win, it should never be considered cheap. Obviously this is coming from someone who's playing Hilde himself, but I just think it's not ok to downgrade someone's playing style just because s/he's going for Ring Outs.

IgnisPhaseOne said:
Also, for whoever suggested that "C3B, 44K, ..." combo shouldn't be considered "bread and butter," I agree somewhat. More just for the fact that I feel I get more mileage from using the charge attacks at more opportune times before that.
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I somewhat disagree on this one, even if the combo itself might be a bit on the harder site to start off with, once you have this one down you can get any other variation in for different situations without using C3B - so yes I'd consider it bread and butter as well. Although I do understand what you're saying.

EDIT: on the B&B thing... ignore my bits, seems like I only read the last bit half assed lol
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Fair enough about the bread and butter thing, really all of her ringout combos are just variations of the C3B one for the most part. So I'll just consider all of them to be her B&B.

Yes it's a good idea to mix up throws, maybe it's just me.. but if I have say 50% health and i'm at the ring edge I would always break B when fighting Hilde. I'd rather take some damage then risk it and die even if they have been using A throws at the edge consistently. There are some players with my mindset, that's all I wanted to say about that(it falters since we're all human of course, but generally).
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Same here. There are others who don't, however. Sometimes it helps them pull off a good victory, sometimes it loses them the match...
 
Starting off Right: A Hilde Guide

Alright, going to toss us a discussion piece.

Let's talk about a character specific matchup.

Sophitia:

  • Who has the advantage in general? ie Who is this matchup in favor of.
  • How does Hilde deal with Sophie?
  • What are our tools?
  • What is our Gameplan?
  • What is thiers?
  • Which way should we be stepping?
  • What can and can't we do?
  • What do we look out for?
  • C3 etc juggle difficulty?
  • Any tricks we can take advantage of in this matchup?

Add more things to this list =p

In otherwords, what do YOU do to win vs Sophie? =p

~Fei
 
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