How will the new timeline diverge from the old?

Credit goes to bk2128 (BlackKite) , from his Twitter profile. He did the translation. "Soul Calibur VI takes approx. 40 hours to clear the story, but promises infinite gameplay time for versus & character creations".
SCVI Fami review (1) *More like a re-depiction of the story beginning rather than a new story development +Other than individual character stories, you can also enjoy the other side w/ your custom chars, which is interesting.
/thread ?
 
I mean, I personally thought this thread was pretty empty from the start. It was pretty obvious from the beginning, and became even more obvious with each newly revealed chunk of story for each character revealed, that they weren't going to be changing the story of the original. The entire concept of "new timeline" versus "old timeline" is fundamentally flawed, as it implies we're on a different path. We're on the same timeline, just revisiting the past with more details. There's some nitpicky things that are different, but mostly all of them can be chalked up to reusing SoulCalibur V assets and gameplay mechanics, which could be argued that would have been that way back on Dreamcast if they could have and/or had the foresight of what they were going to do in the future with characters like Tira and Zasalamel.
 
I have to say, if they follow the story through IV without any changes, I'll be pretty disappointed. I didn't like IV's story beats very much, and its conclusiveness after III felt kind of out of the blue to me. Like because they were wrapping up Siegfried's arc, they had to unnaturally rush everyone else's, or just end their stories for the sake of ending.

Really hope they reroute at some point, even if it's not during SCI's events.
 
I feel like that had a lot to do with the fact that it seemed like SoulCalibur IV was going to be the last SoulCalibur game for a time, so if they didn't wrap up everyone's stories, then there would be a lot of disappointed folks whose favorite characters weren't Siegfried or Nightmare, leaving their stories in an open-ended state without a clear resolution. It's very likely that those stories would be "rewritten" where they don't have such conclusions, because we know there would be more after that time, unless it comes to pass that SoulCalibur VII once again seems to possibly be the last game, and they keep that in line with the original SoulCalibur II-IV events.
 
Thread starter #65

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
After going through Soul Chronicle, I can say with confidence that this is in fact a New Timeline. It’s not as overt as MK9 but changes and reworks are there to create a different future that presumably avoids SCV. I’m at work right now so I’ll explain later but trust me on this.
 
I look forward to seeing your reasoning, @Nyte, because I've just finished Libra of Soul, and with it in conjunction with Soul Chronicle, which both are indeed canon, actually, I still don't believe that we're on a new timeline. There was a ton of new information, hidden history, things we didn't know before, but none of it contradicts the original timeline or prevents future events from happening. We know the machinations behind the scenes, now, and they've definitely filled in some gaps, answered some questions as well as raised a few new ones, but ultimately, they've painted a very clear picture that brings solidarity to the entire story, gives it a proper context, and I love it.
 
I look forward to seeing your reasoning, @Nyte, because I've just finished Libra of Soul, and with it in conjunction with Soul Chronicle, which both are indeed canon, actually, I still don't believe that we're on a new timeline. There was a ton of new information, hidden history, things we didn't know before, but none of it contradicts the original timeline or prevents future events from happening. We know the machinations behind the scenes, now, and they've definitely filled in some gaps, answered some questions as well as raised a few new ones, but ultimately, they've painted a very clear picture that brings solidarity to the entire story, gives it a proper context, and I love it.
I'd say what Siegfried experiences in Soul Chronicle pretty much alters the timeline already where
Siegfried hears Soul Calibur call out to him through Soul Edge, prompting him to grab it and get sucked into the Astral Chaos where he stops Inferno from devouring Soul Calibur and apparently becomes the new wielder of it right there and then.
 
Thread starter #68

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Alright, time to do this.

I'll just start by saying this: Okubo said that he wasn't sure if "reboot" was the right word, but he didn't deconfirm the new timeline. Reboot, retelling, the point of the matter is that this was made to explore the lore in a way that hasn't been done before, but also there are still differences when compared to the Original Timeline that it's clear they don't have the intention to follow it entirely, and I certainly doubt they plan on ever returning to SCV's setting because that would be suicide for the series.

Now, on to my points. Something that should be kept in mind was that the continuity of the OT was kind of a mess, because a lot of it was convoluted, rarely expanded upon, and created with little thought. Daishi attempt to fix this with his soft reboot while making events clear, but Okubo's direction is to wind the clocks back entirely. And with that, it's clear the story's big goal is to clean up the "mess" and make it cohesive. Retcons are now established as being part of the lore from the beginning, seemingly unconnected characters are given connections, and seeds are being planted for stories down the line, while most interestingly, changes are being made to fit the future narrative.

As I said before, the NT isn't as overt about it was MK9's was, but that doesn't mean it flat-out doesn't exist.

As to what those changes amount to? To put it simply, they're subtle, but they're there. I'll try to list them.
  • As mentioned above, Siegfried becomes the wielder of Soul Calibur earlier than he original did. Much earlier, enough to alter the timeline there.
  • Toki in the OT absorbed the Gel-O-Fury to become a demon, whereas here it was Geki who did that, while Toki instead sets out to seek Soul Edge. Notably, Geki didn't exist outside the non-canon Soulcalibur Legends beforehand.
  • Raphael is given a connection to the Bird of Passage, specifically having to fend off assassins who menaced him and Amy. As mentioned, there was no such thing in the OT because the organization hadn't existed yet. Furthermore, him researching the Evil Seed apparently came from Azwel, a character that didn't exist back then.
  • Tira has a massive divergence. In the OT, she had her Jolly and Gloomy personalities from Soul Edge splitting her bipolar personality in two between III and IV. This is not the case at all here, as instead she's had it far sooner than that -- as in, before II and unrelated to Soul Edge, as it was instead born by the trauma of killing her foster family. The two personalities go back and forth and set out specifically to find Soul Edge itself, and are based on two personas -- Gloomy being the birth-raised assassin, Jolly being the mask of an innocent girl she tried to wear. Also, as for the Bird of Passage itself, in the OT they were killed by the Evil Seed. Here, they were driven mad by it, resulting in the group splitting apart. It's worth noting that Tira is instead written as 17 at the time of around Soul Calibur, rather than Soulcalibur III.
  • King Arthur is given a far more prominent role than he originally did. He was the founder of the Aval Organization as the original wielder of Soul Calibur, and that he is held as a legendary hero in the setting while his Aval followers hunt down malfested, which itself is a major deviation because Aval didn't even exist then. Azwel is also being set up as a major antagonist later, as is hinted in the story.
  • Zasalamel established Soul Calibur as evil from the beginning, noting it's just as malevolent as Soul Edge. In the OT, it was only hinted at in SCIV while SCV made it explicit. In the NT, it's clear Elysium has no one's best interests at heart, and of all things introduced in SCV, this has the most potential by far.
Just off the top of my head and I'm sure there's more. The basic thing I have to say is that SCVI is the beginning, in that it's cleaning up the convoluted lore in order to make everything more cohesive, but to say that it's simply a simple retelling isn't quite right. I imagine it being like how Game of Thrones was handled, in that it'll follow the lore up until a certain point, and once that point is reached, they'll seriously divert into a unique lore.

As I mentioned, it's highly doubtful they'll ever go back to Soulcalibur V. They rebuilt all the good will for the series by rebooting the timeline specifically to get away from it, and going back to it probably isn't seen as an option by them. If they thought it was just fine, we'd still be following Patroklos right now.

PS - Any confirmation that LoS is fully in-canon? Because it sounds doubtful. Trying to tie-in an RPG following a custom player with multiple choices into a linear narrative that's unrelated sounds about as convoluted it gets.
 
All the confirmation you need that Libra of Soul is canon is that it appears within the Soul Chronicle timeline after you've completed it:

 
It has seemed from the get-go to be a "soft reboot", everybody is pretty much the same characters we know, the world and universe is pretty much true to how it was etc. But going back to where it was most appealing to most people, with all the fan fav characters back etc.

I think it's safe to say with this game having good buzz and seeming to be a big success, they'll continue on this path from here, with our fav cast of characters. I'm sure they won't redo part 5 for example, but kind of like Street Fighter 3 which was in the future with a new cast, we may see two or three of those characters show up for fun as well eventually.

On what is canon, in fighting games it's tough to say, since even Soul Calibur 2 for example has a ton of non-canon endings, as do most fighting games, So the next game establishes what is canon. I do think Libra is meant to have some canon world building type stuff.

I think the main thing is, since they'll very likely keep with this successful direction, the sequels will probably have new plots that will thus make it diverge notably from later SC games, so it is a new timeline in that way.

(On another note, big Street Fighter fan, can't say that timeline makes any sense to me, but I'm okay with that.)
 

Kraft_D

[07] Duelist
I'm not sure I fully agree Nyte. Although you make some really solid observations you're ignoring the fact that Raphael has inherited the wealth of the former Lord Dumas which sets him on the course of eventually becoming Graf Dumas. It could definitely be a different timeline, however I think some lore from SCV will be preserved.
 
I wanted to mention that actually - SC6 definitely confirms the everlasting "theory" (lol, that word at this point) that Raphael was indeed Nightmare in SCV, so that was really nice. By extension, it seems to me that SC6 is also setting up for some plot points of what was explored in V, even if not all of them (I hope not all of them). That, or they could have just used SC6's soul chronicle as a neat way to implement the confirmation of that plot point from V. Which was also really cool of them.
 
Thread starter #73

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
All the confirmation you need that Libra of Soul is canon is that it appears within the Soul Chronicle timeline after you've completed it:

I'm gonna need more than that, as in a direct confirmation, that LoS is canon. It just sounds very difficult to tie that into the story especially when keeping future games in mind.
 
@Nyte -- I didn't have enough time to write everything I wanted to say out as a reply, so I'll do it now. I'm just thoroughly convinced that you hate SoulCalibur V so much, that you're pulling every mental gymnastic possible there is to let yourself believe that we'll never get back to that time, when there's plenty of events in SoulCalibur VI that foreshadow things that happen in SoulCalibur V, as well as SoulCalibur IV, SoulCalibur III, and SoulCalibur II.

You opened strong, and I agree with your opening sentiments, that SoulCalibur VI is indeed consolidating the events that were haphazard at best and confusing at worst, and making one cohesive narrative. That much we agree on, and I feel like everyone can agree with this. The part where you jump ship, in my opinion at least, is where you're saying that new elements introduced automatically make it a new timeline, and that's not the case. You can use the word "retcon", if you like, but that doesn't mean it's really what's going on. It's not a retcon in the way that it's writing new history that didn't exist before, because almost every event that is in this game is also somewhere else, be it shown in a scene/ending, written in a bio, or worst case, written in an external material such as an artbook. And yes, this includes SoulCalibur V as well as the other games. They're foreshadowing events from ALL of the games. So let me address each of your points, and then I'll add a few of my own.

I don't believe that we're seeing eye to eye on the Siegfried event. This event is not showing that Siegfried defeated Soul Edge and became the wielder of Soul Calibur, I don't see where that's the case, in any respect. What this scene is doing is establishing the existence of Soul Calibur (Evil), and by extension, Elysium, the part of Soul Calibur that lives inside of Soul Edge. As Zasalamel puts it elsewhere, the two swords are made of the same steel, they are, in fact, one in the same, just each with its own "soul" that drives its values, which was also emphasized and was a core theme of SoulCalibur V. They're not so much "evil" and "good", but "chaos" and "order", the two sword spirits. Siegfried confronts the sword and establishes the identity, but still ultimately fails, and he's still going to fall into becoming Nightmare again for the events of SoulCalibur II. This whole Astral Chaos thing is all in his head, he fights Nightmare, he fights Inferno, he does defeat them, but he still acknowledges he lacks the strength to be rid of them for good. He doesn't take Soul Calibur, either, it's just foreshadowing that one day he will, once he does overcome his curse.

I will concede that yes, Geki is the one who takes in Gel-o-Fury this time instead of Toki, so that is a new thing that happens, but the outcome is still the same. Gel-o-Fury still manages to escape in the aftermath, and New Legends of Project Soul also indicated that Toki was still alive, so the end result of the matter is still the same. Gel-o-Fury escapes, will eventually be absorbed by Soul Edge, and Toki is still out there alive, somewhere, and Taki doesn't know where. I would see this as an event of making things cleaner more than it is changing history. All the key pieces are still in play, same ending, different process to get there.

Raphael's story before SoulCalibur II, we didn't see in-game before, just as we didn't see Tira's, and by extension, the Bird of Passage, in-game before either. Linking the two subplots together works as a nod to the conflict between Raphael and Tira in the opening of SoulCalibur III, something that wasn't touched upon in SoulCalibur III. Now it kind of makes sense why they would be fighting each other, should Raphael find out that she's associated with the Bird of Passage due to her history. All we did know is that Raphael had to flee France to get away from gnarling nobles, which he did, that Amy would save him, which she did, and that eventually, they would return, which they did. We got proper details and context, but nothing was changed, in that everything that happened before still happened, we just got to see it.

You're very much stuck on this whole Jolly/Gloomy Tira thing being a divergence, when it's not. Tira is confirmed unstable back when she was nine years old and active in the Bird of Passage in New Legends of Project Soul. While it wasn't a gameplay mechanic, she clearly had both Jolly and Gloomy in SoulCalibur III, so the idea that it wasn't manifest before then is just malarkey. New Legends of Project Soul also already confirmed that the Evil Seed drove everyone mad and broke the leadership structure of Bird of Passage, not killing them. Tira was nine years old in 1983, which is where this timeline starts. The only thing that may have been changed is her age, but that age can also be her age at the end of the timeline, 1590, which is when SoulCalibur II through SoulCalibur IV take place, so not even that. All this is, again, is us seeing her story play out in-game for the first time.

Yes, King Arthur and the Aval Organization are new. But they always existed, even if we didn't know about them. It's stated over and over again by members of the Aval Organization and it's written in the texts about how the Aval Organization, and by extension, King Arthur, are well-kept secrets that no one in the general public knows about. They're so secretive that if their members go rogue, they kill them immediately so that they can keep their cover. No one in the world really knows about Soul Calibur except for the few who have been in its presence, as the Aval Organization keeps it a close secret within their ranks. This was preceded by the keepers of the spirit sword, which Zasalamel was a member of, but it's all Aval Organization now. By contrast, Soul Edge is practically common knowledge, and there are even people who believe that it is the savior, because they don't know that the sword Soul Calibur even exists. But as stated before, they really are one in the same, so it's kind of ironic that they're kind of not wrong.

I've already really covered Zasalamel above, but it follows that Zasalamel, an immortal who has existed since the ancient times, back when Algol was originally a thing, when he created Soul Calibur from Soul Edge, so he knows the truth, and obviously, he keeps that to himself except for the select few who might be able to help him achieve his goals. This isn't really "new", it's just that Zasalamel's motivations weren't spelled out before, but they make sense in context with his actions, and this game even sets up his future in his final Soul Chronicle chapter that you unlock in Libra of Soul.

I'm almost getting the impression that you haven't played/finished Libra of Soul, too. Libra of Soul is absolutely canon, and there's nothing inside of it that contradicts anything else either. Much like the Aval Organization was a kept secret, the Conduit (your character) was also a pivotal role in keeping things in check, assisting Grøh and the others in putting down Azwel for defecting and threatening the well-being of the world. Without the Conduit, Azwel's plan would have succeeded, and that really would have established a new timeline. In that Azwel failed, history continues as it was, but as Raphael's final Soul Chronicle chapter that you unlock in Libra of Soul confirms, Azwel actually does survive, and it is he who aids Raphael in pursuing Soul Edge, giving him the motivation to go after it in SoulCalibur II, when it wasn't really clear why he was the one to stab Soul Edge in the eye originally, why him and not the heroic trio of Kilik, Xianghua, and Maxi.

Raphael's story is definitely helping to set up SoulCalibur V, as it confirms that he is, in fact, Nightmare from SoulCalibur V, as if we didn't already basically know that anyway. We're getting foreshadowing that this happens, because he's taken up residency with Graf Dumas, and, his updated bio in the museum, after getting his final chapter, actually states that Raphael poisons Dumas, and that's how he will assume Dumas's identity. He's already in his estate, he's killed the real one, and no one knows he's the fake one, so that's how that'll go moving forward. It's gonna take going after Soul Edge, failing, surviving (thanks to the medicine that Azwel gives him, which, before you say anything, doesn't decanonize the idea that Amy is the one who helps him get better, because he will definitely still be sick, and Amy may have to be the one to administer the medicine), and going mildly insane that Amy fell to corruption too, before finally falling and becoming the new Nightmare after the events of SoulCalibur IV.

And for my last point, since we already basically know that Amy will be Viola in the future, and Raphael Nightmare is still going to happen, the only missing piece of the puzzle, then, is Z.W.E.I. -- or is he? Grøh's fate is uncertain, per the ending of Libra of Soul, he can't return to the Aval Organization, so he will have to pursue his own path as a lone wolf... hmm... yeah, I don't think I have to say it, I think you can figure out where I'm going with this. I've been saying it since we first even knew of Grøh's existence, and I'm even more convinced now than I've ever been before. I can't wait for SoulCalibur VII to continue the threads of this and get us back to SoulCalibur V, probably in SoulCalibur VIII, and we'll find out the truth. The difference, though, is that I don't think we'll timeskip or miss half the cast. We'll get the best of both world, keep the old, establish their presence, get the new, establish their presence too, and move forward amicably and go from there.

Libra of Soul has to be canon, because if it's not, then Raphael doesn't get the information from Azwel's research, nor does he meet Azwel, it's pretty important, the events that Grøh and Azwel do in Libra of Soul, and that will tend to the future. There isn't any other way to justify things. Soul Chronicle was just a prologue for Aval Organization, their full story was told in Libra of Soul, and showing their involvement completely. As far as multiple choices go, well, I'm about 2/3 through my second playthrough of Libra of Soul, and making choices the other way doesn't make hardly any difference, so far, I'm not even expecting the ending to be much different, but I'll find that out tonight.
 
Thread starter #75

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
It's not about how much I hate SCV, it's the sheer fact that it's the worst direction they can go with the series because Okubo himself admitted it put the franchise on thin ice. That doesn't sound like it's something they want to go back to. I would be absolutely flabbergasted if they announced they were going to back to a game that cut half the cast, and replaced them with widely hated successors, after spending two games regaining the good will of the whole fanbase by cutting off the affliction.

I'll write a more proper response to your massive post later.
 
SoulCalibur V itself was never the problem, but it was the method by which they handled it, and that it wasn't completed. If Okubo can stay in charge and ensure that the following games are as cohesive and in-depth as SoulCalibur VI is, there won't be any trouble justifying SoulCalibur V, reveling in it, and moving beyond it, even possibly converting those who didn't like it originally, because it'll actually be properly told a story this time.
 
Thread starter #77

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
Hmm, let's see how this would go:

"We're going to cut the characters you love again, bring back the characters you hate in their place, and make you like them through the strength of our writing."

Yeah, that's not going to pass.

Defenders often say "it wasn't fleshed out enough" as if it's some kind of bulletproof excuse to justify why they think SCV could be done well. The fact is, the premise alone alienates audiences. No one wants to lose characters they actually like in favor of characters they don't, no one wants to follow a murderous jackass who's supposed to be the new hero, no one wants the new characters to be shilled over the ones we've been accustomed to, and no one wants this shake-up of the status quo. Believe me, I'm not alone on this. I've asked plenty of times, here and elsewhere, and the general consensus was that SCV was something that they needed to get away from. Which they did.

So with that, I'd happily wager that they're not going to do the massive 17-year time skip that completely alienated the series fans and gave the most hated character of the series as the protagonist. If it turns out to happen, it might be the end of Soulcalibur.
 
You'll get to it when you read my massive wall of text (I'm sorry, I really didn't mean for it to be that long, I just wanted to get all my thoughts out, and I tend to ramble a bit when it's about a subject I care deeply about), but I don't believe they're going to necessarily have to cut characters to add new characters for SoulCalibur V. They've proven that they're capable of decloning, and the replacements had their own nuances that can be expanded upon to make them unique, allowing both old and new generations to coexist. And I also address this, that I don't believe they'll necessarily timeskip, either, they may cover the entire 17 year gap, or the highlights at least, to properly set it up, being as cohesive as SoulCalibur VI is. It's amazing how much story content is packed into this one game, more than all the other games put together.
 
Thread starter #79

Nyte

Fu-ma's Shadow
But that would (gasp) diverge from the timeline, which you claim the series is such as a slave to that they must go back to the game that Okubo freely admitted nearly killed the series. The fact is, these differences are there for a reason, as they're setting up a future narrative that diverts and creates a new lore of its own. You may try to say "they don't change anything", but they do. The changes that exists are deviations of the story as it was told. I did read your wall of text (most of it, I'll read the rest later) and I'm still not convinced we'll ever see the SCV kids.

And can we please stop with the "Grøh is Z.W.E.I." crap? It makes as much sense as people saying "Quiet is Chico" or "Sombra is Alejandra".
 
Adding new information is not, in and of itself, a divergence. It's been brought up before that we have a semantical argument about that sort of thing, where you believe that it is, while I do not. New details can come out to flesh out and properly explain things, but as long as the end result is the same, it's not really a divergence. Living the 17 years instead of skipping them would not be changing anything, assuming the events that followed, in 1607, played out the same, and we finally got the full story we were supposed to get in SoulCalibur V. I'm not trying to distract you from getting to the other post, and I look forward to hearing your response, but I really just do not believe that you and I are ever going to be on the same page about this. You're set on your path, and I'm set on mine, and we both have logical points, and it could go either way, but I feel like the evidence is on my side.

As for the wolfy boy, no, we can't, not until it's deconfirmed. It makes a lot of sense, and could very well happen. It would line up with everything else, honestly. And I still didn't really get a feel for if you've actually played/finished Libra of Soul yet. If you haven't, you should, so we can be on the same page at least in as far as how much of the story we've experienced. You really need the whole picture to see the full story of SoulCalibur VI.