How will the new timeline diverge from the old?

Rusted Blade

[10] Knight
@TresDias My friend, I am quite certain that the goofy, nonsensical, pop-fantasy story of the Soul Calibur franchise is unworthy of your level of devotion to it, but I nevertheless have nothing but respect for the methodical manner in which you have approached this research project and your facility with deconstructing the various narrative tracks. I may personally feel that the story is by far the least compelling element of these games, but being both refreshed on details long forgotten and brought up to speed on still others that I was unaware of can only help in forming accurate expectations about future content releases, particularly in regard to thematics. As such, I thank you sincerely for your hard work!
 
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ZionOAS

[10] Knight
So I have waited to visit this discussion and I haven't even finished all of my extra missions in the Libra of Souls. But I am filled with a fervor like never before. I think what allot of us are at fault at is our personal feelings towards the series. And we are trying to take the previous timeline and connect it to the new timeline. The story has been reconstructed and is no longer the same no matter how many strings we try to tie to the old telling.

@DanteSC3 @TresDias @Nyte I commend all of you for the amount of information you have placed into this thread. And I would just like to include my take on things as well. First is that considering that we can no longer use the argument they are or are not heading towards SCV. Elements of lore such as the term Malfested have already been included in the new story and our new character such as Groh is one of them. Now like any reboot things will follow course, yet now they all have new spins on everything. So rather I try to even go back and forth I will just state what my findings are going forward from the game's current state.

Siegfried/Nightmare
I do not know if Siegfried will return as Nightmare. The end of Sophitia's chronicle has seemed to free him from his pain anguish of his previous persona. He does not suffer from sleep killing and though he was in the mental realm fighting the urges of Soul Edge there is in game caveats that may predict the split of himself and Nightmare. One his armor has the faint blue that cannot be removed, and his remaining power granted to him from transforming into Nightmare. The armor is no longer an armor that he can take off, yet like his ending in the original Soul Blade, something that is apart of him like the Nightmarish arm. Where his ending leaves off we could be introduced to a new Siegfried in the next installment that is still him retaining his sanity but half Nightmare. He may even carry the greatsword version of Soul Calibur evil and continue to fight off the power of Inferno from the fragment of Soul Edge still connected to it. I can see that Raphael may land the strike the breaks these two apart and allows him to be seperated from Soul Edge and Nightmare goes about becoming it's own entity. Or what could be even more tragic is that Raphael becomes the new host body for Nightmare if this is damaging part of his body or soul and needed the vial that Azwel gave him to restore himself turning him into a malefested. There is also the fact that Zasalamel will act a game sooner, and Algol will act sooner but more on that below. Final thoughts we will not see Seigfried loose his resolve no matter how many times he fights Nightmare and Inferno in his mental realm. The Spirit Sword calls to him and he has already steeled his resolve to atone for his sins and destroy the Cursed sword.

Algol/Zasalamel/Conduit/ @Rusted Blade
This may be a strech but remember we have already split from the original timeline. Algol has awakened, and the reason is not because of the clash of the swords but the Conduit from Libra of Souls. The Conduit may actually be there name sake and the key for Algol to escape the astral realm. All of Zasalamel's final encounters with the Conduit are centered around the Hero King, the Conduit's power and his future plans being shaped. I have only experienced one of the three responses to the question Zasalamel ask you about your future and legacy; Stating that the Leader of the Keepers of the Spirit Sword had the same answer and in his lust for power realizes that he was now the young fool. But he warns the Conduit that the Hero King slumber is waining and that if he were to resurrect he would get in his way. Because Zasalamel has been inspired by none other than Azwel. The Ultimate Seed research piqued his interest and ever since then you see him floundering around lost in thought, rethinking his entire life times. He also softly breaks the fourth wall when he remarks that he can see the future of people and that his future self could have sent him a message that the future he now approaches is unknown. The continuity has already met it's "Flash Point" and entered a "New 52." My thoughts that now he wants to better mankind through a scheme to do something on a global scale such as an Ultimate Seed. Possible make everyone start to experience extended lifespans, or heightened abilities? Has he possibly grown dull of what man has continuously been repeating and may seek to end our cycle of instanity? So does he target Siegfried and use his powers to reach into the abyss and split him from Nightmare? Because as I wrote above the Azure armor does not seem to be a separate piece of armor. But a manifestation of the connection of Soul Edge/Inferno. Once again I don't know why he would have the motivation to do so anymore? He is allot stronger than his original self and yes there is a inner shadow inside that is Abyss. Abyss could even just end up being his new Soul Charged form in the next game as he gains in power? Yet he has sent Tira to go find Nightmare after Siegfried's Chronicle ends. So we will have to wait patiently to see if they are one or two or new? But let me return to Algol. From SCV we know he has the ability to warp reality outside of Astral Chaos, the Conduit could be a by product of him regaining his consciousness and doing such. The Evil Seed erupting could have been a cause for him getting some of his senses back . And I say this because once again we have in game caveats that his castle floats in ruins inside of Astral Chaos. And Azwel never existed, and to have come so close to causing an Ultimate Seed inside Astral Chaos. He has had plenty of conflicts to begin waking him up and draw power in more and more. The Conduit lost their connection to the swords after their fight with Groh., seemingly he has regained enough consciousness to call back that power to himself. Or the Cursed Sword and Spirit Sword personas have enough power to do so? Or maybe they also fear that Algol is awakening and wish to be free from his grasp as well? And this is where Zasalamel became fearful, in your next series of fights he continues to push you harder and harder. Until the final fight you are given the ability of Ultra Instinct and overwhelm him, only to feel that you have lost yourself and feel as if you are someone else. And that is when Algol speaks out through you. This entire time the Conduit could have just been feeding Algol the energy he needed through their countless battles. Every Astral Fissure, every beserker they faced, crossing swords with those with strong connections to the two swords. All of this has fed Algol and he is here. I believe he will be in the DLC and have a section in Libra of Souls for the Conduit to realize the truth of their journey and actions.

The Spirit and Cursed Sword
Okay. So we have a special thing that could be coming our way that in fact that we will continue to be treated with both Inferno and Elysium in the series now. The later may no longer be a mimic character either being that Inferno is no longer one. However I want to bring up the subject of Nightterror here. His moveset was pretty much taken by Inferno and I had suggested that he now fight like Siegfried instead of Nightmare. But what could make Nightterror? I would say if Inferno and Elysium merged. And with their new power form a body out of two embodiments; the grotesque flesh of Soul Edge and the crystaline armor of Soul Calibur. The play style could even be entirely new. But as long as the beast as the potential to be formed I would be happy. But we know Elysium is the voice of soul calibur we have yet to see how she will manifest?

Raphael/Azwel
Now I know everyone is talking about Graf Dumas, but you have to remember it didn't exist until SCV. In Soul Calibur 3 I faintly remember Kilik busting down a door to a small cottage and getting Amy from Raphael's grasp. So he didn't have that fortune he has now. With this I won't automatically assume that he will become Nightmare. But surprisingly with Azwel's appearance in the end of his Chronicle I will now surmise that this vial will be the reason Raphael becomes a Malfested Vampire and how it can be passed onto Amy. Also I like that Azwel seems to have more powers now and may have ascended to another plane of existence. He is definitely going to be a much needed change of pace within our antagonist in the series that can cause the major catastrophic events. And there's no telling what he could have discovered while he was still in Astral Chaos after his defeat. According to his research notes he is able to realize the Conduit has a certain wave about them that is different, and that the two swords waves resonate with Astral Chaos in a specific way. This goes back to me speaking that Algol is feeding off this energy, and could even explain Zasalamel gaining the future sight even his Abyss form as he was present during the fight with Azwel. I do wonder how Azwel's powers will now manifest and makes me believe that he is now an Ethereal being rather than drawing on the power of replicas. His power may be drawn from Astral Chaos waves itself now. In any case Raphael could become the Graf Dumas character we know of SCV much earlier and begin to pass out Soul Edge shards to the noble people to cause chaos through the land. He can then do his thing and make power plays and end up sentencing someone we know to death and cause his spirit to come about. But seeing Raphael become Nightmare I don't think it will happen anymore. I don't think the story will jut that far into the future anymore. And a reason being is that Raphael is already Graf Dumas, he had become Nightmare first then assumed the identity Graf Dumas. People would notice the former and turn against him.

Groh
Ahh Groh. You aren't dead. Just as Maxi is still alive you will pull off a Kill Bill Volume 2 and crawl from your grave and regained your sanity. That's if you killed him. I also don't think you can kill off Groh's style. And with the current way the characters are panning out and getting allot more attention put into their fighting personas. You won't have the "Hayate/Ein" thing here. Siegfried is the only character to have something close to this and that's because he and Nightmare will be two separate beings even though they start off as one. Groh's scars have no reason to heal even though I still wonder how the hell he got that eye scar from Nightmare in the first place? And he is the primary pursuer of Azwel and one of the Conduit's allies. You could say, Dion could take his place. But then Dion would have to get turned into a Malfested and then take up the fighting style completely. They have similarities, but look nothing alike. And don't carry the same powers. Groh is often compared to a Black Horse, hence "Steed of the Night" rather than a lone wolf. He very well already broke his loner persona and cares for those around him and will travel with companions. They have that in common but that's all that is kindred about them. But I DO see that you know their name is like zero, one, two. You never know they could be related. Groh could work for the Aval Organization so he can send money home for Zwei at the monastery. But now that he no longer works for them he may go home to see his little brother and have him follow him around only for him to become a malefested too.

For the most part I hope they slow down the progression of time. The problem with Soul Calibur 5 was because it was a time skip and it played to our fan service when it was really a spit in our face. You are fond of it because Kilik and Xianghua got together and had a child. Ivy and Maxi became unable to age. Viola and Zwei were great characters and fun to play with. Raphael became Nightmare and played with a joke ending. But all the things that made it good other than the kids can be implemented into the core series. And most of it has already started too. It be nice to know that Kilik and Xianghua shipped and had a love child before he Jin'ed her and left to be an Edgemaster. But it still just nice to know that he is hitting that and not abstaining from sexual intercourse. The characters will find their way into the game without a major time skip and they will find a way to not make our characters get too old. I see more fantasy elements getting into the game, and you might start seeing people capable of traveling around the world faster than before. Such as passing through Astral Chaos, or the ability to fly by means of magic, or fantastic beast.
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
I don't think that just because they're using terms that were introduced later in the series that it proves anything about the timeline, just personally. It's true that the word "malfested" wasn't put into the lexicon until later in the series, most notably SoulCalibur V, but the term retrofits to all beings warped by the power of Soul Edge. So, even without the term, Cervantes was a malfested, ever since the beginning. Grøh's and Azwel's additions to the story are extra side lore that we never had before but technically happened, since nothing they did contradicts anything before, it just ties some things together a bit more cleanly, like a lot of the story elements in both Soul Chronicle and Libra of Soul. Overall, we have a very concise retelling of events from the end of SoulBlade to the beginning of SoulCalibur II, without any major contradictions thus far, so I don't see a reason to break that anytime soon, since it's a great place to be to set up the next game in the series, to retell SoulCalibur II through SoulCalibur IV, a very exciting year or two, 1590-1591.

I'll address your points with my own, but I'm not rereading what I read before, so I may be repeating myself, to some degree, my apologies:

Sophitia helps Siegfried, but she does not cure him. I'm also not sure where you got that he doesn't suffer from the nightmares anymore, since I believe it is that we only saw but one of his nightmares, where he fights against Nightmare/Inferno in his head. The faint blue on his armor is because the armor is indeed one in the same as Nightmare's but it's a foreshadowing that he is not completely free, or else there would be no more azure on the armor. I think that he could take the armor off, but his body would will him to put it back on, or he may not be able to take it off until he has broken free, which adds to the idea that he is not yet free and will become Nightmare once more for the SoulCalibur II story. He has received the call from the spirit sword, but he does not wield Soul Calibur, not yet. It was just a premonition of the future, for the story after SoulCalibur III.

Algol has not yet awakened, or we would have seen him. Algol is not the kind of godlike entity that acts in the shadows. He literally erected a 60 floor tower, as if to say "COME GET ME, FOOLISH MORTALS!" in a boasting manner. It's possible that the Conduit's power is helping, or did help (assuming the Conduit has always existed), Algol's rebirth, but it's still on down the line. Zasalamel wouldn't stay still either, were that the case. Zasalamel did have the fourth wall break with us, telling us that these events are new to him / contradict what his vision from the futre told him would happen, but I feel like it was just that, a fourth wall break, and not indicative that we are actually diverging, just learning new details.

Zasalamel is, without a doubt, the biggest enigma in all this, who even makes it the slightest bit possible that we're doing things differently. It remains to be seen what happens next, but I have said before that we have foreshadowing for Abyss already, so that may still happen, and actually technically get a canon entry in the story for the next game, because Abyss is one of those things that just got dropped completely in SoulCalibur IV and never mentioned again, so you could technically say that Abyss never happened, but Night Terror did and was sealed away, but that's what I hope SoulCalibur VII clears up, gives us a detailed story like SoulCalibur VI, and doesn't leave anything ambiguous.

Something that hasn't been mentioned, that might be neat, I think, is if the (as of now) unknown body that Zasalamel reanimates to become the fake Nightmare that Siegfried has to fight in SoulCalibur III's story is actually the Conduit, wouldn't that be ironic/tragic? Their connection to the swords and the Astral Fissures may be the best candidate for a host that Zasalamel could find, given his personal relationship with the Conduit. If anything, that strengthens the point even further that we're not diverging, though I'm admitting this is me just putting something out there.

I really do hope that Elysium makes a return, with a style to call her own. Her modified Pyrrha Omega style that she used when mimicking Pyrrha Omega that was enhanced, along with her unique Critical Edge, is not unlike what Inferno is doing with the Nightmare moveset in SoulCalibur VI. The Alexandras being the holy warriors chosen by the gods and yet not actually getting Soul Calibur in the canon until SoulCalibur V was always a little weird, but having the embodiment of the spirit sword actually using this style as her base form would be pretty interesting, with the "default" Soul Calibur being the jian wielded by Xianghua.

Night Terror, though, is its own thing, apart from Inferno and Elysium. It still existed in the time of SoulCalibur V, trapped in the Astral Chaos with Cassandra and Edge Master. Edge Master stayed away from it, as he did not wish to fight it, due to its raw uncontrolled power, though he watched over it, to keep it trapped where it could not harm the real world. It may or may not return as a combatant, but is more or less the embodiment of Soul Edge (Complete), as that was its weapon in SoulCalibur III, so if all the Soul Edge shards are ever really gathered again, it could be an antagonist, but I feel like the Abyss foreshadowing may put Night Terror as a looming presence, not a fighter. We'll see.

Graf Dumas is one of those grey area things, I think. We know for sure, now, that Raphael killed Graf Dumas and took his mansion and servants to help him raise and train Amy, and assumed Graf Dumas's identity, for the sake of appearances, to keep those who were looking for Raphael himself at bay, not able to find him. It was a story element, not unlike malfested, that was introduced in SoulCalibur V, but could be retrofit to Raphael before then as well, without changing anything. We don't know for sure that it wasn't until Raphael became Nightmare that he started using this name, it's just that was the first time we heard of it. Raphael bargained with Inferno to use his Graf Dumas persona to obtain souls in a more diplomatic way, in exchange for the sword's ability to use the style it liked, Siegfried's, instead of retraining itself as a rapier.

So about the shack that Amy was in for SoulCalibur III, it could have been that Raphael took Amy with him to Ostrheinsburg, and then Amy's sickness got to the point where she couldn't continue on, so he found an abandoned house for her to stay in. It's kinda hard to say for sure, because there were only so many areas to use. Like how, in SoulCalibur IV, it's implied that Raphael is living in Ostrheinsburg Castle, but that's mostly because there wasn't a Raphael's mansion stage in SoulCalibur IV, so they used what they had. They might could have used Valentine Mansion, but then there would be pictures of Ivy and her family in the background, so that would be weird, and then there's Old Toledo, but it would be literally on fire, so that's no good either. That house was just generic enough to be used for a couple different things, so that's what they went with, for lack of assets.

I don't believe that Azwel's potion is anything other than a MacGuffin, an explanation as to how Raphael was able to survive the end of SoulCalibur II's story, because before, it was unclear how Amy had some kind of mystic healing ability to bring Raphael back to health, albeit malfested, and cursing herself as well. It's just something that Amy will learn about, either by happenstance or that Raphael will tell her, as a backup plan, when he goes to confront the sword in the next story, and that will let him live, but give him his vampiric effects, or something along those lines. I doubt Azwel is through, either, he'll probably be planting seeds in other stories, too.

As probably the crown princess of the Grøh = Z.W.E.I. theory, I probably don't need to repeat myself with this. I believe what I believe and until we get direct contradicting evidence, that's what I'm going to believe. We'll see, when the time comes, otherwise, I'm not sure where Grøh will fit into the future narrative. Azwel can keep being a mad scientist behind the scenes, but Grøh would be out and about, somewhere, so his eventual turn to become Z.W.E.I., literally using a werewolf spirit, to embody his "lone wolf" status, it's too perfect in my opinion.

I don't think we are going to just timeskip again, since it's pretty much almost universally accepted that that was a bad idea. SoulCalibur VIII can cross that bridge when the time comes, stepping us through the changing of the guard, easing us into the new characters, and establishing them properly, doing them justice as characters, instead of just dropping them on us and not telling us anything about them. That should, in some respect, allow them to carry on the legacy better than how it happened in SoulCalibur V originally. If we do diverge, it will be here, but I think we'll still get there in due time. Though again, I think we're a ways off, and I don't see it happening in the next game, but the one after.
 

ZionOAS

[10] Knight
So I have to make some clarifications and ask if you could as well.

Siegfried/Nightmare/Inferno/Nightterror
What I was saying is that the Azure Armor will materialize just like the arm any time he turns into Nightmare. And disappear whenever he is not. So it's not an armor that he can take off. The armor he is wearing is the original armor he owned before he took Soul Edge not the Azure armor itself. Like he could be butt naked and still turn into Nightmare is what I'm saying. So he doesn't have a psychical Azure Armor to take off. And he isn't having night terrors or sleep killing because the story would mention that. That he is going to sleep and then waking up around dead bodies. When we first meet him he is extremely troubled, this could be the sleep killing. Sophitia attempts to cleanse him of evil but she is only able to stabilize his mental state. "I had forgotten to feel so at ease." And no he doesn't have Soul Calibur yet, but he has his sanity, and was able to defeat Nightmare and Abyss inside his mind when he grasped Soul Edge once again. So is this a new kind of 2P SC2 Nightmare we will be seeing? But what I would ask of you is that your saying that the armor Siegfried wears now is still the Azure Armor in a dormant state, or that we are seeing an illusion of Seigfried's denial that he is no longer in the Azure armor. Because people still refer to him now as the Knight with the Great Sword. But to Sophitia's 6th chapter states, "Once the rumors of a knight with the great sword had faded into obscurity, they were soon replaced by unverified stories from people who claimed to have seen Nightmare." So we could be getting fooled into thinking that his redemption armor is real?
I don't understand how Nightterror can be separate thing. Inferno goes into Armor so Inferno is Nightmare 2. Nightmare 2 becomes Nightterror when Soul Edge is complete. Inferno once again is the persona of Soul Edge. When the sword became Soul Edge Inferno was either entering it or born from it. So I believe that is more hamhock because they didn't want an ending where Zasalamel died but then his body was put back together somehow. And it'll be cleaned up soon. Because unless Nightterror is just the Cursed Sword walking around with no Inferno inside it anymore and only thirst for souls I don't see it even though it is kinda explained. But the reason Edgemaster went to Astral Chaos was because of Algol, he went there to fight him and stop him corrupting the real world. That mobile game to me is once again ham hock for them to say Nightterror is just floating around in Astra Chaos. Plus we know that the sword was an ordinary sword, so Inferno has to factor someway into this equation.

Algol
So I still say he has awakened. Because just as you bringing up he has a tenacity for the flare. "I'm going to make this little Conduit and these Astral Fissures and your going to resurrect me like my little Majin Vegeta to my Majin Buu. But seriously, he literally speaks through you and says, "ALL SOULS WILL BELONG TO ME!" That isn't anyone but him. And as I'm saying it's early, he hasn't made his body yet. But where he originally had to wait for the Kilik&Xiaghua fight then the Siegfried vs Nightmare fight. He instead has had the former, All the Astral Fissure fights, Azwel's final battle...which was close to creating an Ultimate Seed and two near perfect replicas. Then all the Zasalamel fights. He correlates you with the Hero King after Groh's battle. He continuously wonders what the hell you are? And when he has pushed you to the limit he pleads for you to retain your concious and your soul and use the Libra Scales to save yourself from being possessed or whatever by Algol. That is what the Conduit is for. I can see Azwel might try to trump this to get Algol's power to come through him but this is about Algol. He'll have chapters recalling his life, his son, the sage, the creation of Soul Calibur. Then he might touch on the Conduit. More and more a body will stitch itself together until he has something incomplete. Not every character interacts with all the other characters but the character is still playable. Algol's story doesn't have to have any fights. It just has to tell his backstory leading up to the events of him rising his tower.

Kilik/ Malfestation
I finally just beat his Purified form and I find it a coincidence that yet another person has made the Conduit promise to take care of them if their power is to ever go beyond their control. What will ultimately happen to those who are malefested? Will they eventually subcum to it's power? Will something like Nightterror, Abyss, Azwel be able to control them?

Groh
No spoiler needed. You made me laugh out loud irl and I will just leave my opinion where it is.
 

TresDias

[06] Combatant
First is that considering that we can no longer use the argument they are or are not heading towards SCV.
I don't think anyone has used that as an argument unto itself, have they?

ZionOAS said:
Elements of lore such as the term Malfested have already been included in the new story and our new character such as Groh is one of them.
The term was in use well before the events of SCV. Pg. 14 of the "New Legends of Project Soul" book tells us that the earliest known cases were recorded in 1583 (that's the year of the original "Soul Edge" game), and that a lot of research was conducted long before the declaration from "Graf Dumas" in the early 1600s that Malfested were humans who had made pacts with demons.

ZionOAS said:
Siegfried/Nightmare
I do not know if Siegfried will return as Nightmare. The end of Sophitia's chronicle has seemed to free him from his pain anguish of his previous persona. He does not suffer from sleep killing ...
And he isn't having night terrors or sleep killing because the story would mention that. That he is going to sleep and then waking up around dead bodies. When we first meet him he is extremely troubled, this could be the sleep killing.
In SCVI, we last see Siegfried sometime around the summer of 1589. That leaves a significant bit of time until the unspecified point in 1590, when he had fallen back under Soul Edge's control in the original timeline.

His SCII profile has always held that it took four years (from 1586 to 1590) before Siegfried fully succumbed to being Nightmare again rather than just slipping back under the sword's control while asleep, and it bears acknowledgement that we last see Siegfried in SCVI trying to fend off Inferno within the mental/spiritual realm. This is apparently the first time he has experienced this, but we are not left with an impression that it will be the last, as Siegfried collapses, saying his strength has failed him -- and more to the point, the SC narrator punctuates the moment with "Siegfried's battle with his nightmares raged on."

ZionOAS said:
Algol/Zasalamel/Conduit/
This may be a strech but remember we have already split from the original timeline. Algol has awakened, and the reason is not because of the clash of the swords but the Conduit from Libra of Souls.
ZionOAS said:
Algol
So I still say he has awakened. Because just as you bringing up he has a tenacity for the flare. "I'm going to make this little Conduit and these Astral Fissures and your going to resurrect me like my little Majin Vegeta to my Majin Buu. But seriously, he literally speaks through you and says, "ALL SOULS WILL BELONG TO ME!" That isn't anyone but him. And as I'm saying it's early, he hasn't made his body yet. But where he originally had to wait for the Kilik&Xiaghua fight then the Siegfried vs Nightmare fight. He instead has had the former, All the Astral Fissure fights, Azwel's final battle...which was close to creating an Ultimate Seed and two near perfect replicas. Then all the Zasalamel fights. He correlates you with the Hero King after Groh's battle. He continuously wonders what the hell you are? And when he has pushed you to the limit he pleads for you to retain your concious and your soul and use the Libra Scales to save yourself from being possessed or whatever by Algol. That is what the Conduit is for. I can see Azwel might try to trump this to get Algol's power to come through him but this is about Algol. He'll have chapters recalling his life, his son, the sage, the creation of Soul Calibur. Then he might touch on the Conduit. More and more a body will stitch itself together until he has something incomplete. Not every character interacts with all the other characters but the character is still playable. Algol's story doesn't have to have any fights. It just has to tell his backstory leading up to the events of him rising his tower.
I agree that Algol was obviously speaking through the Conduit during that last encounter with Zasalamel. I don't know that this amounts to any deviations from the original timeline, though, as the Conduit presumably existed there as well to put a stop to Azwel's scheme with Zasalamel's occasional assistance -- and if they were there, then surely their affinity for connecting with the Astral Chaos was as well.

No, I suspect the catalyst for deviation from the original timeline into this new one is the knowledge Zasalamel of the original timeline has shared, be it deliberately or on accident, with his past self. As such, the only thing I believe to have changed thus far is Zasalamel's goal shifting from personal self-destruction to humanity's self-improvement earlier than it did originally -- the effects of which we have yet to see (most likely reserved for SCVII).

Getting back to Algol, Libra of Soul and Zasalamel's final Soul Chronicle chapter kind of left me with the opposite impression about him and the Conduit from what you have taken. Whereas you see foreshadowing that Algol will be arriving earlier than in the original timeline, I expect his return to be stalled or even prevented.

At the very least, I expect the events of SCIV to play out very differently.

ZionOAS said:
Raphael/Azwel
Now I know everyone is talking about Graf Dumas, but you have to remember it didn't exist until SCV. In Soul Calibur 3 I faintly remember Kilik busting down a door to a small cottage and getting Amy from Raphael's grasp. So he didn't have that fortune he has now.
He did. His profile from SCII has always mentioned that he decided poverty wasn't the world for he and Amy, then mentions, "One day, in the library of the mansion he acquired under dark pretenses, Raphael found a letter with references to the Evil Seed."

This is precisely what we see occur in SCVI. This hasn't been changed.

That mobile game to me is once again ham hock for them to say Nightterror is just floating around in Astra Chaos. Plus we know that the sword was an ordinary sword, so Inferno has to factor someway into this equation.
Can you elaborate on what you mean? Are you talking about the "Unbreakable Soul" game? I know very little about it, so I don't know whether it depicted Night Terror flying around the Astral Chaos.

Either way, this is something we learned about Night Terror from pg. 114 of the "New Legends of Project Soul" book.
 

LisaK

[13] Hero
As probably the crown princess of the Grøh = Z.W.E.I. theory, I probably don't need to repeat myself with this. I believe what I believe and until we get direct contradicting evidence, that's what I'm going to believe. We'll see, when the time comes, otherwise, I'm not sure where Grøh will fit into the future narrative. Azwel can keep being a mad scientist behind the scenes, but Grøh would be out and about, somewhere, so his eventual turn to become Z.W.E.I., literally using a werewolf spirit, to embody his "lone wolf" status, it's too perfect in my opinion.
Z.W.E.I is far from having skin as white as snow, different from Groh who is visibly caucasian.
59089
 
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DanteSC3

[14] Master
Z.W.E.I is far from having skin as white as snow, different from Groh who is visibly caucasian.
View attachment 59089
So the boy got a tan? Can't be out in the snowfields all day. It could also have something to do with the wolf spirit, since Azwel's skin tone changed when he transformed, so too could/would Grøh. Or what RB said.

Edit: Typo fix.
 
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LisaK

[13] Hero
If Z.W.E.I is about 20 years old, he will be too young to be Groh, who would probably be more than 30 years old in future new timeline.
59140

(No, this age was not written by a fan in wikia. This information was revealed in his promotional material.)
and would be a total waste if he to be replaced, especially for someone like Z.W.E.I
 
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ZionOAS

[10] Knight
I don't think anyone has used that as an argument unto itself, have they?
Yes that's the point of this conversation. Where one side is saying no it's not going to happen, and then the other side saying no it is and no matter what new aspect is introduced into the game they cause insignificant impact to change the original story.
The term was in use well before the events of SCV. Pg. 14 of the "New Legends of Project Soul" book tells us that the earliest known cases were recorded in 1583 (that's the year of the original "Soul Edge" game), and that a lot of research was conducted long before the declaration from "Graf Dumas" in the early 1600s that Malfested were humans who had made pacts with demons.
I think you are interjecting literature into the real world argument. I believe the closest in real life use of the world Malfested or Malfestation is in Raphael's bio. I read the word on his wikia page. But I do not know if this is in fact verbatim from the game bio or from complete works information prior to the SCV game. With that the term was never used until the SCV game, it was never added to our vocabulary. With the retcon now the world is used commonly throughout the game. To just be even clearer, up until SCV no game really used the word to describe anyone or anything effected by the Evil Seed or Cursed Sword. The only exception will be the Raphael case.
In SCVI, we last see Siegfried sometime around the summer of 1589. That leaves a significant bit of time until the unspecified point in 1590, when he had fallen back under Soul Edge's control in the original timeline.

His SCII profile has always held that it took four years (from 1586 to 1590) before Siegfried fully succumbed to being Nightmare again rather than just slipping back under the sword's control while asleep, and it bears acknowledgement that we last see Siegfried in SCVI trying to fend off Inferno within the mental/spiritual realm. This is apparently the first time he has experienced this, but we are not left with an impression that it will be the last, as Siegfried collapses, saying his strength has failed him -- and more to the point, the SC narrator punctuates the moment with "Siegfried's battle with his nightmares raged on."
I'm just going to revisit my thoughts, the Soul Chronicle ends at 1590. Siegfried is blessed by Sophitia and states he is at ease. After this happens Siegfried stops having interactions with everyone like he is holding in a dump, and becomes his normal brooding self. If it was too graphic to tell that he was going to sleep and murdering people then the change in attitude could signify it. I'm wondering how Siegfried will turn back into Nightmare because it was unknown how he turned back in the old time line, and now we see that Soul Calibur is standing with him in the Mental Realm. How many times will he fight off Nightmare and Inferno before he loses the will to fight? Or will he become an entirely new Nightmare that is more Siegfried but say, he can't let go of Soul Edge so they have constant mental battles? Or will he succumb to Elysium and carry around Soul Calibur Evil? @DanteSC3 began to have thought of what of his armor? Is his Redemption Armor really the catacylsm armor in a dormant state, or an illusion of his denial and we the audience are in that denial with him. If he were to see his reflection would he still be Nightmare? It's the unknown that they are going to patch in that I'm beginning to speculate they may spin this another way.
Can you elaborate on what you mean? Are you talking about the "Unbreakable Soul" game? I know very little about it, so I don't know whether it depicted Night Terror flying around the Astral Chaos.
I think I muffed something here but the whole point is I am confused how Night Terror is Nightmare but Nightmare is Inferno but Inferno and Night Terror are two different things? And Night Terror is Soul Edge Complete but Inferno is Soul Edge but they are two different things? It doesn't make sense. So when they started reading his information I became confused because it contradicted the other information from Soul Edge, Inferno and Nightmare. Before I read up I was under the impression that Nightmare became free of Inferno, you know the second one was just his own thing outside of Inferno. But I read that Inferno is the Second Nightmare. So when it's complete where does Inferno go? It's all malarkey!

@LisaK I'm with you that they aren't the same, but even I have to advocate for @DanteSC3 at this point and say "appears to be 20." In a game where Ivy, Maxi, Edgemaster, Kilik, Voldo all appear to be ages they are not.
 

TresDias

[06] Combatant
I think you are interjecting literature into the real world argument. I believe the closest in real life use of the world Malfested or Malfestation is in Raphael's bio. I read the word on his wikia page. But I do not know if this is in fact verbatim from the game bio or from complete works information prior to the SCV game. With that the term was never used until the SCV game, it was never added to our vocabulary. With the retcon now the world is used commonly throughout the game. To just be even clearer, up until SCV no game really used the word to describe anyone or anything effected by the Evil Seed or Cursed Sword. The only exception will be the Raphael case.
I'll be honest that I'm very confused as to what you are saying here, so I will just reiterate what I said before: per the "New Legends of Project Soul" book, the term "Malfested" was in use in the original timeline long before the events of SCV. Its usage in SCVI, therefore, is not a departure from the original timeline.

ZionOAS said:
Siegfried
I'm just going to revisit my thoughts, the Soul Chronicle ends at 1590.
As I said before, it ends in 1589, around the middle of the year.

ZionOAS said:
I'm wondering how Siegfried will turn back into Nightmare because it was unknown how he turned back in the old time line, and now we see that Soul Calibur is standing with him in the Mental Realm. How many times will he fight off Nightmare and Inferno before he loses the will to fight?
It already isn't looking too good for him where the Soul Chronicle leaves off.

ZionOAS said:
I think I muffed something here but the whole point is I am confused how Night Terror is Nightmare but Nightmare is Inferno but Inferno and Night Terror are two different things? And Night Terror is Soul Edge Complete but Inferno is Soul Edge but they are two different things? It doesn't make sense. So when they started reading his information I became confused because it contradicted the other information from Soul Edge, Inferno and Nightmare. Before I read up I was under the impression that Nightmare became free of Inferno, you know the second one was just his own thing outside of Inferno. But I read that Inferno is the Second Nightmare. So when it's complete where does Inferno go? It's all malarkey!
Other than being the manifestation of the Astral Chaos (i.e. both swords' power), I'm not entirely sure what this entity is otherwise. I don't think it has a personality like Inferno and Elysium, though.

Speaking of Inferno, yes, he and the second Nightmare are the same being.

If Z.W.E.I is about 20 years old, he will be too young to be Groh, who would probably be more than 30 years old in future new timeline.
View attachment 59140
(No, this age was not written by a fan in wikia. This information was revealed in his promotional material.)
and would be a total waste if he to be replaced, especially for someone like Z.W.E.I
Some Malfested age more slowly, though. Just look at Tira.

Not that I do think these two people are the same, mind you. I just don't see the age thing as a reason to discount it.
 
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LisaK

[13] Hero
@ZionOAS maybe age is a bit ridiculous argument, especially in a game focused on beauty. but okay, nevermind. ^^ Sorry @DanteSC3 I really like you but I expect your fanfic never happens. Groh is perfect, don't touch him. Kappa
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
@ZionOAS I think you're pushing too hard about some things, like with the word malfested, yes, it was "invented" by SoulCalibur V, but it's retrofit into the other games as a general-use term for those influenced by Soul Edge. It's not changing anything to use the term all over the place, it's just that they didn't have the foresight to make a term back from the start.

As far as I can explain the sword spirits, in the simplest terms, I guess:

Elysium = Soul Calibur
Inferno = Soul Edge

Those are the absolutes, and nothing can change this. Elysium was "invented" by SoulCalibur V, in the same way that malfested was, but she's still the sword spirit of past, present, and future. Her voice was first there in SoulCalibur IV, as an unidentified entity, but it's probably just that she was shy or kept to herself or something, being more subtle than Inferno. She doesn't have a "base form" that we're aware of, yet, like Inferno is the flaming skeleton. It would be assumed she is some sort of a water spirit.

Inferno has different levels of appearances, being the entity itself, a spirit of fire/skeleton, which can wield the sword of its own will (SoulBlade, SoulCalibur, SoulCalibur II, SoulCalibur IV, SoulCalibur VI), or possession of Siegfried (SoulCalibur, SoulCalibur II, SoulCalibur VI), the unknown entity that Zasalamel chose (SoulCalibur III), or Raphael/Pyrrha (SoulCalibur V). Inferno has appeared, quite openly, in every game.

Night Terror, on the other hand, is not one of the spirits. It is a monster, an entity that was created by Zasalamel when he was attempting to use the power of the two swords to end his immortality. The essence of the two swords fused with the remains of the defeated false Nightmare of SoulCalibur III, and thus, Night Terror was born, with the familiarity that is Nightmare, with Soul Edge as the dominant force, with most/all of the sword reforged, it became a being of absolute power.

It's in that unfortunate grey area of canon, because when it comes out in the story mode, it obliterates Zasalamel and becomes the final boss instead of Abyss, which also may or may not be canon in itself, because neither Night Terror nor Abyss made a return in SoulCalibur IV's story or were mentioned, aside from Nightmare's 2p looking similar, as well as being the inspiration for the Fully Malfested CaS race. But New Legends of Project Soul did confirm that Night Terror still exists, sealed away in the Astral Chaos, still wielding absolute power, to the point where even Algol avoids it at all costs.

@LisaK @TresDias @ZionOAS I don't see the two being one in the same as being any more or less problematic as Amy and Viola. It's not like they would have to be "replaced", either, considering how both Raphael and Nightmare were characters in SoulCalibur V. Grøh and Z.W.E.I. could also both be on the roster, by that same token, yet actually have the story reveal that they are one in the same, like they were going to do with Raphael. I could be wrong, it's definitely possible that I'm wrong, but if I'm right, I called this so hard that I'm going to probably have celebratory cheesecake or something.
 

LisaK

[13] Hero
If they will keep doing this "remake the game" that SC VI did it, I hope:
  • SC VII = II-III
  • SC VIII = III-IV
  • SC IX = adaptation for Unbreakable Souls
  • SC X = V
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
I know a lot of stuff happens, but it would make the most sense, I think, to put SoulCalibur II, III, and IV in the next game, since these three games all take place within 1590-1591, and it allows for every roster character to return, too, because we’ll need to make the leap to SoulCalibur IV’s story to include Algol and Hilde, as well as maybe even Dampierre and his flunkies.
 

ZionOAS

[10] Knight
@TresDias @DanteSC3
I apologize if I coming off strong and stubborn. But the point I'm trying to make is because of their retcon the story is different from what it was before. Since it has already changed there is an original Soul Calibur universe and this is a new Soul Calibur universe. They can diverge from a timeline but some things that are meant to be are meant to be. But then there are those anomalies that change everything. Such as Peter Parker will become Spider-man, but Gwen Stacy can also become Spider-man(gwen). Broly from Dragon Ball Z was a beserker class fighter that was originally butt hurt Goku cried too much and was the Legendary Super Sayian. Broly is now a beserker class fighter that grew up on an alien planet and has the ability to summon the power from his great ape to continue to grow stronger and stronger and stronger. Meant to be, but can change.
Siegfried can become Nightmare twice, but the second time he becomes Nightmare he can have an entirely different dynamic, and that's even if he becomes him a second time at all. We left him in the mental realm but it does not mean he is about to lose his resolve and become Nightmare again. They have more narrative tools then to just make him another sub boss in the second game. And he has Soul Edge, Soul Calibur is inside, she's talking to him, is right before him at this very moment in the mental realm, because he is gripping Soul Edge. Did he ever have her mental support before? For all we know he may rip her out of Soul Edge right then and there and then Nightmare 2 will find it's way to be created without the series of events from Raphael striking the eye. Raphael could instead fight the Inferno Nightmare later and then get marked for the next host body. It could all change right then and there. With the earlier introductions of things like Malfested, Graf Dumas, Zasalamel. And the new introductions of the Conduit, Azwel and other changes. Someone like Z.W.E.I can be introduced earlier, because Raphael can still sentence him to death because he is helping one of the royals. Causing the series of events for him to gain his power. Algol has been introduced earlier where as before no one heard a peep from him until after the Lost Cathedral battle.

The difference between backtracking and rebooting, a reboot will make the audience actually experience the change. Where a backtrack will not change the source material but have a mention of it in future material. Example, if this game continued from SCV and Groh pops up and Kilik recognizes him as the man in black that helped him years ago to get to Nightmare. You the audience never knew that, you go back and play the first game you never see that. But they can add a flashback to backtrack it. Whereas the reboot puts Groh psychically into Soul Calibur 1(SCVI) and you play through this. It's like when stories make a magic brother, sister, spouse, child pop up and you had no idea they existed. But every character close to your character acts as if they always knew it just happened off screen and no one ever wanted to talk about it. So for us to rely heavily on all the information we know of the old games, books, ect is irresponsible of us. Because if it was just going to be an update with new game mechanics and better graphics that's what it would have been. But this is a rewritten story, so anything can happen.
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
@ZionOAS I guess that's our biggest divide, then. You're looking at this (and, indeed, @Nyte probably may have been) as a new continuity, while others among us don't feel that way. @TresDias and I especially seem to be in agreement that this is the original timeline, the original story, retold with more elements that were introduced later in the series to flesh out the story and tell it better. It is what you're saying, backtracking, but in a "reboot" fashion. If we did just keep moving forward after SoulCalibur V, then we'd still have to headcanon all the new ideas they gave us, but instead, they have revisited the original story but implemented the concepts and ideas that were introduced later in the series. The distinction lies in that this does not mean that it is a retcon, in and of itself.

Retcon, at least in the larger scope, means that something has changed, set history on a new course, which alters the big picture. None of that has happened in SoulCalibur VI, and because that precedent was set, it would then be weird to deviate in the next entry, when they've worked so hard to keep things the way they were originally. Where @TresDias and I disagree, though, at least to some respect, is that we will actually diverge in the next game. I don't think we will. It's possible, but I think Zasalamel is trying but will ultimately fail to change the past by sending messages to himself. I see it as acknowledgment of the reboot fourth wall breaking. The pieces are in place for everything to happen exactly as it did before, they just need to make their moves. There may be more changes, like what we saw in this game, to make everything work with respects to each other, but the big picture most likely will remain the same. I'm interested in more character backstories and inbetween events, to see and learn more.
 

Rusted Blade

[10] Knight
I think I muffed something here but the whole point is I am confused how Night Terror is Nightmare but Nightmare is Inferno but Inferno and Night Terror are two different things? And Night Terror is Soul Edge Complete but Inferno is Soul Edge but they are two different things? It doesn't make sense. So when they started reading his information I became confused because it contradicted the other information from Soul Edge, Inferno and Nightmare. Before I read up I was under the impression that Nightmare became free of Inferno, you know the second one was just his own thing outside of Inferno. But I read that Inferno is the Second Nightmare. So when it's complete where does Inferno go? It's all malarkey!
Yup, I think you're completely within your rights to feel confused: I very seriously doubt that even the people who wrote the lore and scenarios or each of these games could tell you with a straight face that they know how it all fits together. And that's perfectly on par for an anime-influenced pop-fantasy story told in small chunks in installments that occur every four to six years. I don't think a single one of these games since SCII has had its plot elements structured by the same writer or scenario director. And beyond that, the games are told as a Schrodinger's cat style selection of possible storylines, only one of which is (maybe?) chosen as the "cannon" one to form the basis of the next game.

Now of course one can try to make sense of it all, and tie themselves into knots and leap about in mental gymnastic to try to create one "true" continuity. But I think the much more sensible thing is to shrug and say "it's Soul Calibur rules" and move on. I see no way Abyss and Nighterror, despite both being discussed in the supplement book, could both exist in the same continuity, despite the fact that they occur in mutually exclusive endings to SCIII's plot. For that matter, I don't see how Abyss could exist if Zasalamel is alive, since the latter was subsumed as the entity out of which the former grew. Now, I'm sure someone can come up with an explanation that makes sense to them with "astral chaos" this or "spirit sword clashing with demon sword" that, or time travel (now that that's a thing for the series.....) or whatever, but it all sounds like a whole lot of apologetics rather than logic--and thus it only goes to demonstrate further how little consequence any development in the plot of these games have and why nothing has any real weight as a result.

Now, all of that said, I think a lot of the discussion here (particularly Tres' mammoth post of a while back), demonstrates that the devs are trying to synthesize all of the disparate events from at least the earliest games into one narrative that more or less tracks and fits together. But even then, if you look too closely, many cracks begin to appear, especially if you expect the fictional world to not just be internally self-consistent but also rational and believable at any level. And that's just with their working with the earliest games so far, and leaving a fair number of characters out. Before long we are going to be back to "Wait...wait, how is it even possible for these two to be facing eachother?" And there's two ways to resolve that cognitive dissonance. Neither is inherently the right one, but I can tell you mine is a whole lot easier! But then, I've always been here for the sweet, sweet gameplay--I don't care what they have to do with the plot, I just can't wait to create my beautiful and brutal Amy ballet again and terrorize my way, through a hundred thousand stinging little cuts, to C1 in a month! :)
 
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TresDias

[06] Combatant
@ZionOAS I think you're pushing too hard about some things, like with the word malfested, yes, it was "invented" by SoulCalibur V, but it's retrofit into the other games as a general-use term for those influenced by Soul Edge. It's not changing anything to use the term all over the place, it's just that they didn't have the foresight to make a term back from the start.
Precisely!

They also made sure to inform us via the "New Legends" book that the term had been in use during the time period of the previous games as well. We just weren't aware of it until SCV.

DanteSC3 said:
I don't see the two being one in the same as being any more or less problematic as Amy and Viola. It's not like they would have to be "replaced", either, considering how both Raphael and Nightmare were characters in SoulCalibur V. Grøh and Z.W.E.I. could also both be on the roster, by that same token, yet actually have the story reveal that they are one in the same, like they were going to do with Raphael.
The only problem I see with it is that it doesn't match up with what little we do have on Z.W.E.I.'s background at the moment (i.e. the whole growing-up-in-a-monastery thing).

If that gets revealed as a red herring -- perhaps something he wanted people to believe or just something that was assumed about him -- then cool. Otherwise, I just don't believe it works at the moment. =(

DanteSC3 said:
I could be wrong, it's definitely possible that I'm wrong, but if I'm right, I called this so hard that I'm going to probably have celebratory cheesecake or something.
Oh, you absolutely should. If you're right, cheesecake's on me.

I know a lot of stuff happens, but it would make the most sense, I think, to put SoulCalibur II, III, and IV in the next game, since these three games all take place within 1590-1591, and it allows for every roster character to return, too, because we’ll need to make the leap to SoulCalibur IV’s story to include Algol and Hilde, as well as maybe even Dampierre and his flunkies.
Where things stand at the moment, it certainly makes sense for SCVII to cover events up through SCIV if the next game has as much content as this one.

SCVI touched on "Soul Edge," covered SCI, and then incorporated significant chunks of II and III.

With the upcoming DLC we're expecting (particularly Cassandra and Amy), there's really no one from II or III who will be left in need of an introduction or backstory. SCVII can jump right into Raphael going after Nightmare and freeing Siegfried from the evil sword's control, then go over Sieg looking for a place to have his showdown with Nightmare, and then move into whatever path Project Soul plans to take with SCIV's original short, frantic unfolding of events -- whether that be to have them play out much the same as they did before or drastically change them up.

Where @TresDias and I disagree, though, at least to some respect, is that we will actually diverge in the next game. I don't think we will. It's possible, but I think Zasalamel is trying but will ultimately fail to change the past by sending messages to himself. I see it as acknowledgment of the reboot fourth wall breaking. The pieces are in place for everything to happen exactly as it did before, they just need to make their moves. There may be more changes, like what we saw in this game, to make everything work with respects to each other, but the big picture most likely will remain the same.
Yeah, to me that still would amount to a different timeline. Unless everything remains identical down to the smallest detail, we're now dealing with a separate timeline.

Even a single speck of dust following a different course or a single thought occurring where it didn't before would make the whole of the world a different reality than before, so Zasalamel's motivation changing a few years early is huge to me.

We may yet end up with all the main beats playing out the same way, but that means we then have two separate timelines marked with the same notable events.

Now of course one can try to make sense of it all, and tie themselves into knots and leap about in mental gymnastic to try to create one "true" continuity. But I think the much more sensible thing is to shrug and say "it's Soul Calibur rules" and move on. I see no way Abyss and Nighterror, despite both being discussed in the supplement book, could both exist in the same continuity, despite the fact that they occur in mutually exclusive endings to SCIII's plot.
I don't believe the "New Legends" book spoke of Abyss -- or even Zasalamel himself -- at all.
 

Rusted Blade

[10] Knight
I could be wrong, it's definitely possible that I'm wrong, but if I'm right, I called this so hard that I'm going to probably have celebratory cheesecake or something.
I think it's more likely you're going to end up eating your words on this one, Dante. ;) Though they surely channel the same over-the-top emo/good-lord-this-is-silly/are the devs even physically incapable of creating a character with an actual weapon that makes any kind of sense at this point? vibe.

I don't believe the "New Legends" book spoke of Abyss -- or even Zasalamel himself -- at all.
Huh, I must me mis-remembering that. Maybe it's because the concept art for Abyss in SCIII had a white background, as you would find in the supplement, and my brain just slapped them together. Well, given that Zas shows up well and fine in SCIV and we never hear from Abyss again, do your reckon that means that Abyss is not a part of the "main" continuity? Whose ending in SCIII is the "real" ending, exactly, as best you can tell?