If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out...

[Manta]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Where your church money goes ~

I'm sure the hungry and poor should be happy it always goes to the right place. The reaction of the crowd is also disturbing, as if something really really horrible happened.

Thank god I'm an atheist :D


-Manta-

 

[KingAce]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Seriously how do you go about proving something is random. Forget the whole God discussion. And explain to me that right there.
Randomness is completely dependant on ignorance.
Just because we don't know why certain mutations happen, it does mean the mutations are random...it means we just don't know.

 

[iKotomi]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

We do know why mutations happen. It's because the meiosis process is prone to error.

 

[KingAce]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

How easily we forget...how small and insignificant we're!
A belief is the one thing you truly have, while all other things will perish and leave you...your beliefs will go with you to your grave. It's understandable that you would hold on to them with you very life.

"You lack the 1%, yet you speak like you know the infinite." This is the folly of all humans...

lol just finished God of War 2.

 

[Impending_Doom66]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Thank god I'm an atheist :D

Amen brother

 

[DC97]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

So i was on the freeway today and i saw a billboard that made me chuckle, it read:

"ATHEISM: The belief that nothing created everything."

I lol'd

 

[KoshTheKoala]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

How easily we forget...how small and insignificant we're!
A belief is the one thing you truly have, while all other things will perish and leave you...your beliefs will go with you to your grave. It's understandable that you would hold on to them with you very life.

"You lack the 1%, yet you speak like you know the infinite." This is the folly of all humans...

lol just finished God of War 2.

Your beliefs will not go with you to the grave... not at all.

Besides the millions of people who have converted from one religion to another, from a religion to atheism, or from atheism to a religion, you can even "convince" people that the sky is not indeed blue in the middle of the day or that 1+1 does not equal 2.

I love human psychology. :D

So i was on the freeway today and i saw a billboard that made me chuckle, it read:

"ATHEISM: The belief that nothing created everything."

I lol'd

There are a lot of those floating around the internet too.

 

[Felix007]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

How easily we forget...how small and insignificant we're!
A belief is the one thing you truly have, while all other things will perish and leave you...your beliefs will go with you to your grave. It's understandable that you would hold on to them with you very life.

"You lack the 1%, yet you speak like you know the infinite." This is the folly of all humans...

lol just finished God of War 2.

Nothing goes with you to the grave. As far as we know, sentience ends with death.

I still don't quite understand your philosophy that the idea that because "nothing" is random, which isn't necessarily true, means God exists. See radiometric dating for the idea that something can occur without an overarching cause behind it (or most of Quantum Physics, for that matter).

 

[Codemaster92163]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Pop.....well look at that. I randomly said pop (And randomly chose to come back to the topic.) It was random, and no offense, but god did not tell me to write it.

asdjkljdjsahnjklsdbhagm,xckjhioajse

Whatever I just spelled there is also random. I moved my hands in weird ways hitting random keys (Not knowing what I was hitting) and it spelled something. I purposely hit the keys, but what I hit was random, not pre-concieved by me.

Not everything has pure logic behind it.

 

[iKotomi]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

As soon as you willed your muscles to flex, what keys were hit were pretty much determined, not random. Classical mechanics for the most part is quite determinate.

 

[KoshTheKoala]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Pop.....well look at that. I randomly said pop (And randomly chose to come back to the topic.) It was random, and no offense, but god did not tell me to write it.

asdjkljdjsahnjklsdbhagm,xckjhioajse

Whatever I just spelled there is also random. I moved my hands in weird ways hitting random keys (Not knowing what I was hitting) and it spelled something. I purposely hit the keys, but what I hit was random, not pre-concieved by me.

Not everything has pure logic behind it.

God works in mysterious ways.

He made you do it without having to do something as crude as telling you. He just willed you to do it, and you did.

God also exists outside of the universe and thus isn't bound to any rules or laws that everyone else is.


See how impossible it is to argue against a god? "It's not logical? God doesn't have to be logical to exist." Hell, God doesn't even have to exist to exist, because to do otherwise would be logical, and God is not bound by logic.

 

[KingAce]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Nothing goes with you to the grave. As far as we know, sentience ends with death.

I still don't quite understand your philosophy that the idea that because "nothing" is random, which isn't necessarily true, means God exists. See radiometric dating for the idea that something can occur without an overarching cause behind it (or most of Quantum Physics, for that matter).

For the sake of discussion I wouldn't say randomness proves God's nonexistence.
Too me the whole random discussion is separate, but maybe eventually connected.

You can't prove something is random...at least by true definition of the word random.

For anyone to state that something is random, that individual would have to have complete knowledge of that particular system.
The only possible event that I can see that could meet these conditions, is a program written by you, with you as the only individual in the world. And this program acts completely random from the coding you have written. And if you can't find the source then it is plausible to state true randomness...however, usually there is a cause.

Like KoshTheKoala said it is all psychological...

Maybe people want to believe that randomness exists, because the idea of free will is important to them.
Maybe people want God to exist because, it's the only way to make sense of things and they're too insecure to feel alone or something.
And maybe people don't like the God concept because, they feel they're in control of their lives and destinies, and don't want someone dictating their lives and fates.

In the end we know to little to be certain about anything. We can't cure cancer, and the largest thing we know are super cluster complexes.
_________________________________________
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God works in mysterious ways.

He made you do it without having to do something as crude as telling you. He just willed you to do it, and you did.

God also exists outside of the universe and thus isn't bound to any rules or laws that everyone else is.


See how impossible it is to argue against a god? "It's not logical? God doesn't have to be logical to exist." Hell, God doesn't even have to exist to exist, because to do otherwise would be logical, and God is not bound by logic.

Do aliens exist? Does big foot? Angels...etc.

The real question is where does thought come from? Where do ideas come from? Where do dreams come from? Can blind people visualize?...Can they dream? Is thought a type of energy that can be transfered from human to human, or to animal? Remember the universe is composed of matter and energy. So what is thought?

 

[KoshTheKoala]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

For the sake of discussion I wouldn't say randomness proves God's nonexistence.
Too me the whole random discussion is separate, but maybe eventually connected.

You can't prove something is random...at least by true definition of the word random.

Well first, nothing proves any god's nonexistence. As someone said before, it's impossible to disprove that a god exists.

Second, you can prove something is random, if it's part of quantum probability. The behavior of sub-atomic particles really are the only truly random things in the universe.

For anyone to state that something is random, that individual would have to have complete knowledge of that particular system.
The only possible event that I can see that could meet these conditions, is a program written by you, with you as the only individual in the world. And this program acts completely random from the coding you have written. And if you can't find the source then it is plausible to state true randomness...however, usually there is a cause.

Again, not entirely true. Computer programs also aren't really random, they imitate randomness but are actually deterministic. Random number generation is a very interesting topic and some linux distributions have really crazy ways of creating random numbers (eg having you move your mouse around in a box on the screen, which it tracks and uses to generate random numbers).

However, knowledge of the process does not equate to whether or not something is random.

Do aliens exist? Does big foot? Angels...etc.

Yes, no, no.

To be more serious, its questions like these that make us strive towards learning and knowledge. Religion would have us just accept that we don't currently know it and claim God did it. Science has us realize we don't know it and try to figure out how things work or if they really exist rather than live in ignorance forever.

 

[iKotomi]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Second, you can prove something is random, if it's part of quantum probability. The behavior of sub-atomic particles really are the only truly random things in the universe.

That's a very bold statement, considering how we can't even observe sub-atomic particles without changing their behavior (Heisenberg Uncertainty). For us, they might as well be random since their behavior follows a nice probability distribution, but we can't really tell if their actions are really just natural consequences of pre-existing conditions because we can't observe everything.

 

[MAILBOXARSON99]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

It isn't necessary to prove something false. Instead, it is necessary to prove that something is fact. There may be probability or likelihood that something is fact, but this can never truly be certain. If the doorbell rings and you think someone is at the door, even if you can't know for sure, there is still plausibility in this inference, it is an inference that is based at least partly on facts, with the facts being that people often do ring doorbells when they wish to speak with someone. The statement that there is a god is inferring the existence a being so incomprehensibly beyond anything we've encountered that it is in fact the most absurd statement that could possibly be made. The Earth being destroyed by celestial objects next month is more plausible than the existence of a god, mainly because we have true knowledge of such events actually happening in the known universe, and as such, it is possible to calculate the probability of such an event occurring, which is not possible for that which is supernatural or divine. Therefore, believing that the act of praying to a divine force can truly alter reality is the largest possible assumption that could possibly be made at this point in time; going to the door to check to see if someone is there is not such an absurd leap of faith, because, as I stated earlier, this action is based on logic.

 

[iKotomi]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

It isn't necessary to prove something false. Instead, it is necessary to prove that something is fact.

There is no distinction between these two. When you prove that something is false, you prove that its converse is true, hence why proof by contradiction works.

Scientifically speaking, absolutes can only be proven false. We are not aware of all possible conditions, nor is it possible to recreate all such conditions, so you can not prove anything to be true.

For example, take a statement like water freezes at 32 degrees. First of all, this is a false statement, second of all, even if you do produce a situation where water froze at 32 degrees, you have not shown anything at all. You have shown that water freezes at 32 degrees given the conditions you had during the experiment. You can draw from this experiment a hypothesis of when water freezes at 32 degrees, but you can never claim it is a fact. This is obviously shown when you dissolve substances, change the air pressure, among other things.

 

[Felix007]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

-snip-

I presented that question only due to the conversation we had been having in a seperate thread, where I feel you made it clear that the lack of anything random in the Universe attributed to the existence of a God. Hence, my confusion when you then go on to state that you do not believe it does "for the sake of discussion". I believe we went over, in detail, how the laws of physics can function quite differently in a singularity, or to a lesser degree, a Black Hole.

I agree with your last statement, saying that we know nothing for certain. However, we can certainly shade things with probability, and unless there is evidence otherwise, God does not rate very high on that list.

See how impossible it is to argue against a god? "It's not logical? God doesn't have to be logical to exist." Hell, God doesn't even have to exist to exist, because to do otherwise would be logical, and God is not bound by logic.

Actually, should he be real, I believe God must be logical by definition to exist. As in, he cannot create two sided triangles, pit his omnipotence against his omniscience, create an object he could not move, etc. Otherwise, by his very definition, he would not exist.

In an unrelated note, the Pope has declared that condoms will make the AIDS crisis in Africa worse.

Just wow.

 

[iKotomi]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Actually, should he be real, I believe God must be logical by definition to exist. As in, he cannot create two sided triangles, pit his omnipotence against his omniscience, create an object he could not move, etc. Otherwise, by his very definition, he would not exist.

Unfortunately, nothing really requires you to believe in it for it to be true. Your argument not only is based on premises that are necessarily true, but it also lacks any real deliberative value. Even the most die-hard atheists should know that you can't disprove or prove the existence of god. Otherwise you just make us look stupid with dumb arguments.

 

[Felix007]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

Unfortunately, nothing really requires you to believe in it for it to be true. Your argument not only is based on premises that are necessarily true, but it also lacks any real deliberative value. Even the most die-hard atheists should know that you can't disprove or prove the existence of god. Otherwise you just make us look stupid with dumb arguments.

Where did the hostility come from?

I never posited that my belief system, specifically that which would define God as "logical", was the only possible way ever that he could exist and that I could not be wrong. Neither did I say that I can prove or disprove God, but merely explained that, in my mind, he would have to be logical in order to be extant to other human beings.

Edit: To clarify further, the above post, which you seem to have vehemently strawmanned into something of a different nature, was no more than speculation. I was not applying proven logic or empirical evidence to my claim, merely musing aloud in a message board. I haven't the slightest idea where you got the idea that I claimed I could prove or disprove God's existence, nor that I thought my statement was ironclad. I'd prefer if you would discontinue projecting ideas on me that I do not claim to hold.

 

[KoshTheKoala]

If I had $1 for every time God bailed me out..

There is no distinction between these two. When you prove that something is false, you prove that its converse is true, hence why proof by contradiction works.

Scientifically speaking, absolutes can only be proven false. We are not aware of all possible conditions, nor is it possible to recreate all such conditions, so you can not prove anything to be true.

For example, take a statement like water freezes at 32 degrees. First of all, this is a false statement, second of all, even if you do produce a situation where water froze at 32 degrees, you have not shown anything at all. You have shown that water freezes at 32 degrees given the conditions you had during the experiment. You can draw from this experiment a hypothesis of when water freezes at 32 degrees, but you can never claim it is a fact. This is obviously shown when you dissolve substances, change the air pressure, among other things.

Actually I think the speed of light is considered a constant and absolute regardless of anything. Even through a medium, the speed of light is constant, even though it appears slower, because it's bouncing around particles (or more precisely, being absorbed and emitted again over and over)