Ivy BD Changes

[Ring]

WP 66B, CL1BB+K, 236BB is not guaranteed. CL 236BB works as a techtrap only. Stomp will be the best followup again (even with -10damage) because it tech catches all directions after CL 1B,B+K and resets the damage. I can't think of any other options, except for SW 3B... every combo that involves SW 214K will suffer -10 damage (which means like 90% of them) But thing is, if stance cooldown prevents us from entering CL, there is no appropriate followup after 66B in WP now that 3A doesn't have anything guaranteed on stun hit/CH =/ The best combo I have come up with WP 66B in SC4 is WP 66B, CL 9gB, SW 214K. It does 68dmg, but with 9gB gone, this combo is gone too....

By the way, I checked 9gB/9B combos and that 1 frame makes no difference, both are guaranteed. Now let's just hope that it's the same in BD.

Ring, is it too early to make a 1.04 patch thread?

Well, I don't know. It's a good idea to have a thread like that (hopefully someone from Namco will read it =o) but you really think they are gonna release a patch after 1 year of ignoring the game? Personaly I think it's more likely that we will see BD ported to PS3/X360 as a downloadable game or something.

 

[IvyFanboy]

We deserve a patch that buffs the low tiers (poor mina), nerf hilde, and fix the glitches. and let it be. I can nit pick at things like CL 1A but I'll make do. The above is the necessities. It's looking more and more like I'd rather deal with this crap than BD Ivy. Sure my Rock just got a hell of lot better...but damnit they really shot Ivy in the leg here.

I'm not even getting BD or have played it and just the obvious mechanical issues this brings up is sickening. What the fuck is the point of stance changes if they cant be fluid? You might as well repackage her as 3 characters since switching is gonna more of a nuisance than a tactic since it's either forced or you have to do it at a loss to your frames. How dumb does it feel to push them out to CL range with SW, make the shift, and then they're right in your face again?

 

[Eli123s]

Ok I got to test more things today and it more bad news. I guess it true, when it rain it pours :(

1) Confirmed, in WP if you hold A you can not do 1B+K, 2B+K, and 3B+K(Forgot to test 6B+K)

2) Test out WP 66B and it still stuns like in SC4 , but the old combo --> WP 66B, CL 1B B+K, SW 214K, is gone.
If you use WP 66B and follow up with CL B 1B+K, it create a shakable sit down stun. I don’t know if you can use a really fast move (maybe kick) to get guaranteed damage. On a slight positive note, this could be a good setup for CS. I have not test WP 66B, CL 236 BB.

3) She has a new spin stun but again nothing is guaranteed. CL 66B A is the same as SC4, but CL66B A+K give her a new stun on normal hit. Again there is no free damage, but maybe is another setup for SS.
Some of her other combo are still there. Like WP 1B, 2B+K, 4B+K, 214k. It does 80 damage. Her damage has increased, but it still not worth all the changes. There are other combos in the Video below.

4) WP 6AA knocks down on normal hit (did it knock down in SC4, to tired to remember)

I think in BD they want Ivy to be more throw dependent. They probably want her to be using command throw every second or something.

All Ivy players will eventually get the finger from these Namco guys (or whatever these guys call themselves now). From SC2 to SC3, then SC3 to SC4 (Changing the command throw and removing the throws from SE, I am still upset about that), and now this. Maybe it some sick twisted tradition they have…

Ivy BD Videos
WP 66B CL 1B+K

WP 66B CL 1B+K #2

WP Dont Work

CL 66B A

CL 66 B A+K

WP Combo 1

WP Combo 2

WP Combo 3

WP Combo 4

SW CS

WP SS

 

[Davo87]

Thats sad news Eli. :( Really her changes offer ziltch on gurrantee dmg department.

WTF!? ANother shakeable stun, this time its on CH?

WP 66B> CL 1BB+K is now shakeable. Great.
WP 66B> WP 1B+K is not bufferable and is techable already in SC4
CL66 B A into spin stun is a change... tho if it doesnt give much more than a mixup, thats just great.

So basically WP is f**ked. She only gets WP 22B and WP 1B that is a gurranteed combo. Why thanks a lot. So how am I going to use CL 236BB from WP aside from using WP 22B. That thing is so steppable and punishable on block and on whiff. Screw you Namco.

Edit:

1) Confirmed, in WP if you hold A you can not do 1B+K, 2B+K, and 3B+K(Forgot to test 6B+K)

Its expected [A] 6B+K will turn into WP 6B or 6K. If they see this system patch as a fixup by all means they will get rid of any inconsistencies.
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I guess its only fair to test out her frames as well. Probably something to salvage?


Eli: Aside from testing [A] 6B+K is WP 6AA NC? If not its only good against crouch opponents.

 

[Ring]

The changes are getting more interesting xD Gosh, other characters do so much damage now... =(

I'm furious. Especially when I see that WP 1B combo does more damage now. Wow, as if people get hit by this offline lol. WP66B->CL236BB is not a combo... still can't think of anything that does more than 45dmg....

 

[Nofacekill3r]

So what do we do from WP 66B now?

WP 66B -> WP 3A into mixup?


I guess they want us to use more mixups now...but that would only be satisfactory if SS and CS were both accessible in all stances...

 

[Eli123s]

Some good new and some bad news

Bad new
CH SW 1KBK is exactly like in SC3 Jap version. Meaning if the 1K connects on counter hit and you hit B. the B will grab them and pull them to the ground, but if you press SW 1KBK the B won’t pull them instead they just fly in the air and fall down. So basically you can’t spam SW1KBK, it bad because I usually press the second K and a force of habit, and lose out and the is guaranteed damage
If you’re holding A you can not do WP 6B+K.

Also WP 4A+B B does only 20-25 damage ( I think it less than SC4, right).

WP A+B is the same

CL 214, feels like it steps less.

Good New
LOL her infinite is back. Well kinda of. SW WSB, WSB,WSB… but apparently the opponent can air control out of it after a second WSB (I need to do more testing to confirm), also WSB is much better because if the opponent just or you juggle them in the air and do WSB right it will fling them backward, just it did in SC4 before the patch. If the opponent air control right or backwards they have a high chance of getting out. But you have a very high chance of getting 2 WSB. Even if the opponent knows how to air control out you can get a really nice combo. So you can WSB, WSB, and then 6B8, for a total 95 damage on normal hit!!!

SW WSB, 6B8 is about 73 damage

Also more testing on WP 6AA if the First hit connects the second is guaranteed and it knock down on normal hit.

 

[Davo87]

LOL her infinite is back.

Im not entirely sure if I would place that as good. But since its there and if it is easily aircontrollable we can use it in the meanwhile. But...I expect them to REMOVE it in the next version. They are clearly lazy! Not only are they going backwards they are becoming senile when organising their data.

SW WSB, 6B8 is about 73 damage

The only other buff that sounds useful. So far SW gets tiny bit of treatment.

Also more testing on WP 6AA if the First hit connects the second is guaranteed and it knock down on normal hit.

This is a wierd change. Its good that it is NC now as this move RO to the right pretty well. For a high it deserves it.

If you’re holding A you can not do WP 6B+K.

If other B+K series are like that in WP this is bound to happen. Its not like the team spends time intricately to consider the details. Its like oh, a bug. It must be bad for company, tick! Remove! Thats not how we initially designed it but people are using it like that. Well screw them it makes the game look like dodgey script. We want them to stance dance like a maniac. We dont want them to spam 6B+K like the old days, but go back and discover the Coil that we gave them.

Eli, what about 8~kB?

 

[SilentWall]

Ivy's WSB infinite can be ACed after the second hit, so it is not an infinite combo.

 

[Davo87]

Thx for the confirmation, Silentwall! I saw ur reply in the other thread, didnt expect you to reply so quickly! :P

As Eli put it: WSB, WSB > 6B8 (95dmg) XD

Still, its an odd looking combo. I wonder if it could forward RO. :P

In this case, does it also mean WS B can be used as a juggle? What other combos are possible with iWS B juggle?

[A] CL 1BB+K, just incase...

SW WS B> iWS B> CL 4B?
WP WS BB> step iWS B? (Difficult bcos to jump 2 stance needs mashing now.)
[CH] SW 44A> CL 4B > step iWS B?
[CH] SW 3B> iWS B?
[CH] SW 22B > iWS B? Sounds greedy...
[CH] CL 3B > iWS B?
[CH] CL 1A> SW iWS B?

Whoever has time to test this, its greatly appreciated!
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Whoevers got psp and got time on their hands, could u also test if Ivy gets any wallcombos into CFA (A+B+K)?

Basically discussed here: http://www.8wayrun.com/f70/new-feature-a-b-k-cf-attack-t4800/

Video e.g: http://www.youtube.com/user/zyeooable#play/all/uploads-all/0/dssACeVdVhM

 

[Ring]

lol iWSB combos are back?

I remember that CH SW 3B, iWSB, CL 4B, SW 214K was like 120dmg in 1.02

So far WP 6AA being NC is the best news imo. I hope this it true, because that would mean a serious buff, even tho it's high, the range of this move is enormous and the speed is i17.

SW WSB, 6B8 is about 73 damage

Please tell me that they buffed 6B8K damage ;3

 

[IvyFanboy]

So what's NAMCO's email? I feel a lil out of place since I don't own the game nor will play it...but I want to do EVERYTHING I can to make these changes not come in a patch or future game. One can say I need to play the game and see, but from what I gather it's essentially the same game with most characters getting buffs and a new A+B+K move and some other tweaks such as SG and step. Still...if I applied these changes to SC4 I vy it would be horrible.

Really...

WTF. Can PSP be patched like PS3 to hopefully fix our character? I feel like she's bottom tier now. WP mode without [A] lock is bad. The new stance rule is beyond retarded and the worst nerf. All the damage scaling etc... The buffs she got are absolutely pathetic.

 

[Davo87]

The outlook of BD Ivy seems leaning towards mainly SW and CL. With her WP 3A, 6B+K, 9gB sabotaged there is not much incentive to be in WP unless she is forced into a defensive poke game.

SC4 Ivy's SW range has always been vulnerable to step because of she her 2A and 6A range is tiny like Amy so she cant really contain her opponent with pressure. Her reliance on 2A+K, 1KBK, 8BK to track steppers makes her open to spacers like NM NSS and 44B chars. Her CL 3A is good against step not in SW. Once in close quarters, you dont want to be in CL unless you are planning to go into space game. Broken Destiny puts her at disadvantage bcos her best anti-step tool is weakened and her antistep in SW is weaker because CH 66A doesnt combo, steppable to one side and everybody else's step is much better now.

While in SW if you are being outspaced, you need tools like CL 66A chase mid range quarters and you need time to react and decide to get into CL because of the new stance system. Her other good spacing tools like CL her 1BB+K used to be good because you can stay in CL or go into WP. Now it becomes counterproductive if used as a spacing tool because it is forced to go back into Sword. Her CL 214 not forcing crouch on block means other chars will have a much easier time punishing Ivy: Seig gets B6, Vader gets 3B, Algol gets 1B or bA, Nightmare gets 3B or AGA etc. Her buffed tools dont cover her weakness namely antistep and SW reach. Her risk reward is lesser her favour.

Dont get me started in Whip. WP 3A is a joke to rushers like Astaroth, Cassandra and Sophitia. They can keep coming into you and worry less, while they get CH they get time to see you going into Coil. Once you are in Coil, no good lows, no good throws. You stay in Whip your close quarter pokes are a joke. Push them out with WP 1B or WP 6B+K. 6B+K goes back into Coil. Oh Noes!!!

Conclusion: BD Ivy is more vulnerable in anti-step and inefficient in spacing. Poorer risk rewards with CL 214B and to use Whip. Also weaker in mixups and ukemi because CL cannot mixup SS/CS and her [A+B] unblockable is less of a threat.

Class: Upper-mid down to Mid tier.

Who will give her problems?

Seigfried's midrange-spacing is better than her now, B6 and 3A is gonna eat her alive. Any character who is better at spacing and deal good damage at close quarters will give her problems. Namely Raphael, Talim, Xianghua, Setsuka, Astaroth, Hilde and even Rock.

 

[Ring]

Davo is taking the whine to a new level :D ahah

I have been reading BD impressions and it seems that they buffed the step in this game. Let's face it, Ivy's anti step is very good in SC4:

WP 3A, 2A, 4A, WSA, 6A, 22_88A, 44A_[A], 66A etc
CL 3A, 2A, 66A, 33_99A, 66BA, 4A, 6AK_A+K etc
SW 2A, 1A, 6A, 66A, 66K, 44A, 22_88K etc

Not many other characters (if any) can boast such a long list of good anti-step tools. As horrible as this sounds, let's be thankful to namco that they decided to leave WP 3A in game, because they could easily remove it, like they did with SC3 SW 44A (such a great move!) or SW 1A.

 

[Davo87]

WP 3A, 2A, 4A, WSA, 6A, 22_88A, 44A_[A], 66A etc
CL 3A, 2A, 66A, 33_99A, 66BA, 4A, 6AK_A+K etc
SW 2A, 1A, 6A, 66A, 66K, 44A, 22_88K etc

Erm, SW does not have 66K. 44A is great only if no one punishes it. 22_88K is still good, but like I said, everything in Sword has got this gap range which a good spacer char can exploit. Tho nothing like the SC3 times where SW 2A is the greatest out of the whole series and SW 44A, SW 1A as you mentioned.

SW 3A, CL 66A, SW 66A, CL 4A steppable to one side. Even almighty WP 2A is. :P

And ofcos... you just reminded me, taking wats left of WP 3A is important.

Altho we need to get our hands on PSP, to judge how her CF game matches upto others.

 

[Ring]

Oh right, I forgot about CL/WP 66K. But I did mean SW 66K. This move is really great. I think it covers step pretty good, because it techcatches all directions after CL 22_88K. Many anti-step moves in this game are stepable to one side, so it's nothing unusal ;P CL 66A is only stepable at close range If I remember well.

I really miss SW 44A. That move was godly. With its properties (safety, range, TC, NH/CH advantage) it's easily better than most anti step moves she has now. 1A would be a perfect low for CL now. It also could hit grounded.

 

[Davo87]

LOL. SC3 44A also have sidestep properties aswell. SC3 Ivy, is pitbull style. 44A is great for closing in. 44B does like 40+ dmg and has awesome range and speed very good for whiff punishing, +1 on block.

2A which stops everything upclose. Do you remember the CH 2A spam against ppl who kept trying to step out of 2A range? They just couldnt bcos 2A's range is massive.

SC3 SW 1A and WP 1A = frametrap and throw mixup.


I wont even get started on choose SC3 Ivy or SC4, bcos the problems she had back then are different to ones of tday. Imo top tiers in SC4 arent as broken as SC3. Also the way she is designed is also interesting. To weight things up here are my opinions:




SC4 Ivy > SC3 Ivy: because WP and CL together is too awesome as a whole. She risks less and deal great damage outside of SW range which is her strength and weakness. Risk and Reward SC4 > SC3.


SC3 Ivy > BD Ivy: because WP damage being weaker and stance shift screwed, she cant main WP or CL like before. SC3 close-mid range is atleast solid in all areas and she is very mobile! SC3 Whip atleast have CS which is fast and bufferable on step. SC3 SW can fight really well on its own where SC4 or BD cannot because of SW and CL barrier.


SC4 Ivy > BD Ivy: Clearly a downgrade. A unworthy sight.


If we were to see the timeline:


SC2 >>>nerf+buff>>> SC3US >>>buff >>> SC3pal >>>nerf>>> SC3:AE >>>buff>>> SC4:1.02>>>nerf>>> SC4:1.03 >>> nerf >>> SC4:BD

 

[Ring]

Haha well let's wait a little more (I should get the game next week) until we can pronounce BD Ivy dead =P But damn, I remember whining incredibly on SC3 Ivy, and now she doesn't seem that bad compared to BD...

SW 44A was too good. They removed it in SC3:AE, along with SW 2A range, but people didn't mind that much from what I seen. They buffed incredibly 3[K] (by the way, this move was insane. I remember abusing the hell of it in SC3, it was +3 on block, tracked both sides, tech catched all directions, big NH damage) and WP 3/33, where 5hit was finally fully guaranteed without a wall for like 80dmg. Nice.

That reminds me Davo, I recently played SC3 again. And I checked SW 44B. Guess what, did you know that SW 44B, 9B was a combo too in SC3? Approx 70 dmg. I never knew about that until now.

 

[Davo87]

Yeh, Ill promise to halt the whine, I should get some work done than to keep this up. XD

That reminds me Davo, I recently played SC3 again. And I checked SW 44B. Guess what, did you know that SW 44B, 9B was a combo too in SC3? Approx 70 dmg. I never knew about that until now.

Wow, even on tip? I miss SC3...

Now that I look back at SC3, she is actually very strong. Its just other top tiers have it better.

When ppl was whining about SC2>SC3, ppl just hated the stance barrier. SC2 has uber dmg and WP is accessible thru hold commands like FC 3B or FC 3 from idle and all those Spiral Serenade, Spiral Tribute into SE gimmicks. Tbh they look cool but really not all that practical when stepG was there. SC2 66 or 22 into Spiral Tribute was awesome. On launch ST A> SE B (SC4's WP 6A+B) is such a memorable transition. SC3 seems more tidier and practical with the movesets and the fast command grabs are deadly, her only weakness was the lack of usefulness of WP 214 bcos it doesnt dodge things.

SC3>SC4 was a new mystery when ppl see CL as nuisance. Then ppl discovered WP can combo thru 3B, 66B, CH 3A and 1B along with her old and new SC3 pokes. Instant love. Then ppl discovered stance lock allowing you to stay whichever stance you wanted and you can perform bizarre RO combos back from SC3 with [A] and SEB+K6. Moar Love!! keep them coming!! Stance hold allows lesser button presses,makes switch a breeze and opens CL mixup into iCS or SS. So sexy!!!! Ppl enjoy the fluidity of stance dance. And then more and more tricks and easter eggs like no flame UB, halfcharge UB, 9gB, 8~kB from all stance. It truly was a credit to the players effort, embracing SC4 Ivy and determination to make her complete.

And now... BD. I wonder why all the fire died. Is it just temporary? Or because Ivy never had been blessed with so much tools and freedom that all the sudden we have been shutup? I really enjoyed SC4 Ivy the most. SC3 would be placed first for Link and 350hz or even Ring? Malek would love SC4 :P. Sorry I didnt mention the others, think most of you are mainly SC4 ppl?

What I dont want is BD Ivy ported to console. But I dont mind SC V Ivy bcos it will be totally new concept and full of mystery once again. :D

 

[Ring]

I completely agree Davo. This character is so much fun in SC4. We put so much effort in researching Ivy over the past year, and we still discover new things. That's why when I look at BD Ivy, I feel like Namco stabbed us in the back. They just take away all we found like it was nothing =( In some aspects, that's understandable, because we have found ways to bypass her stance limitations =] and it was never meant to be found in the final game. But if they really don't like our discoveries, they should test the game more carefully before the release, to make sure we won't find any glitches. SC4 Ivy is one of the most complex characters that ever appeared in a fighting game. Her 1.02 version was full of shit, and that alone shows that people who test this game should be more efficient.

SC3 Ivy was good in frames, but her biggest weakness was the lack of damage on NH and weak punishing game. In the end, she couldn't keep up with other characters in terms of damage (I'm afraid the same thing can happen to BD Ivy) CS was a deadly weapon until someone can break it on reaction. Then we are left with simple pokes, thus the ammount of effort needed to win a match with her on high level play was ridiculous. I remember specifically when just after SC4 was released in US, Kazz confirmed on Caliburforum that SW 22B and CL 3B launch on NH. I was like "Oh God, yes!", I was really waiting for that to happen.

If she gets a total revamp again in SC5, it's gonna be interesting =D