Leixia Matchup Chart Discussion Thread

Kalas said:
I can see everybody's point of view, but I'm still not really convinced of an even fight.
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Well, it wouldn't be much of a discussion thread if everybody agreed with everything. And the game's still evolving to a point, so who knows.

Does anyone know about Algol? I mean, to me projectile anti-step is still kinda huge in this game and he has good damage. And an aGI that TCs highs and beats everything else. Is there something I'm missing or is this character actually too much?
 
My post will probably have no say so :/ but I think algol is underplayed but he is too much espically when u fight a good algol
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
As I said, Leixia can't win in a slugfest, but her spacing tools are all safe where omega's mostly aren't at mid to far range. And their frames aren't really the same either. Leixia has an 11 frame AA, and a plus on hit low (WS A+B). All Omega's lows are negative on hit.
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I said roughly the same frames. In exchange for 1 more frame of startup, Oprah gets more damage. And better frames except on ther 1st A.

Leixia and Oprah have roughly the same frames on hit on their lows (-2 in most cases), except Oprah has more lows that knockdown (which is, obviously, frame advantage). Generally speaking, Oprah's lows are safer on block as well.

Algol is a nightmare to play against for Leixia. No backstepping, good anti-Gue setups, safe on pretty much everything, fast, high bar-less damage, free 180 or whatever damage on 128 different knockdowns and stuns with 2 bars.
 
Kalas said:
Why do you think so? I don't think that this match-up has ever been even in SC5, not even before 1.02.
Maybe I'm just too traumatised because of daGOTTh, but I think that this one is 3:7 and one of her worst match-ups in the whole game.
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Personally I think Leixia does ok in this matchup. I'd put it 5/5 right now just because of how Leixia can really frustrate Omega with a simple punishment game. If you take care to avoid being hit by DNS B:4, you can actually punish her better than most characters.

To put it another way, some fights can be braindead for Ω if DNS B is safe, but vs Leixia she has to space it really well. She has to play a lot smarter than against other characters. And if you make sure to punish every NS A and DNS B, Ω has to start playing a poke game and she doesn't do that much more damage than Leixia here, especially if you can react to 1K. She has the counter-attacks to deal with her frame traps, and 3B and 22B are only AA punishable.

The only thing you need to be concerned about if you play this way is Guard Burst damage, but I think good mind games will allow you to force mistakes if she wants 66B and 4B all the time. Good use of step and 3A+B make this a good fight for Leixa (which is 5/5 btw).

Matches I've had with Dag, Talon and Eggmaster have helped me get used to this matchup. I don't have so much experience with certain other match-ups at this point.

However I did recommend on SCFR that Leixia has 7-3 in her favour against Raphael and Z.W.E.I. I think she's strong against overly linear characters, just like her mother, and has tools that really cripple the main offensive game of these two. But I would like an opinion on these match-ups from some more experienced players.

Kalas said:
Lol if my results spoke for the match-up ranking, Leixia vs Alpha would be 7:3, wouldn't it docvizzo? :P
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Doc's αPat sucks
 
FallenAngelII said:
Algol is a nightmare to play against for Leixia. No backstepping, good anti-Gue setups, safe on pretty much everything, fast, high bar-less damage, free 180 or whatever damage on 128 different knockdowns and stuns with 2 bars.
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I don't know what Algol would have trouble dealing with vs any character, much less Leixia. I just think his design is really dumb for this kind of game.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
I did recommend on SCFR that Leixia has 7-3 in her favour against Raphael and Z.W.E.I. I think she's strong against overly linear characters, just like her mother, and has tools that really cripple the main offensive game of these two. But I would like an opinion on these match-ups from some more experienced players.
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Raphael has decent space control to keep Leixia from moving around as freely as a lot of characters. 236B is perfect anti-backstep and whiff punish, 22B may not combo anymore but it still is annoying to deal with when Leixia's not already in his face. His 44B is strong too since it'll backstep and TC which negates all of Lexy's backdash killers except 66BB. His horis are not impressive, but they remind you that he can still score hits at ranges Lex can't. She can really destroy prep though if she 44[A] under the highs.... among other things.

I just don't feel a 7/3 for her in this match for some reason. Raph can punish Leixia 3B and 33BB easily with 6BB or 6BB into prep regardless of spacing which is annoying.


ZWEI... i dunno. He is linear, true, but for me to say 7/3 on this she'd need a tool that destroys his gameplan, and I don't think she has one. Even if crybaby and WS B(BE) are good against certain setups, is it really enough to gve her that much advantage when his damage, keepout, and Guard Burst game all trump hers? why 7/3 and not 6/4
 
My list for the moment:

Aeon -
Algol - 4:6
å-Patroklos - 3:7
Astaroth - 4:6
Cervantes -3:7
Dampierre -
Ezio -
Hilde - 5:5, not sure
Ivy - 4:6
Maxi -
Mitsurugi - 3:7
Natsu - 4:6
Nightmare - 4:6 or 5:5, but I feel like Nightmare has the edge
Patroklos - 4:6
Pyrrha - 4:6
Pyrrha-Ω - 4:6
Raphael - 6:4
Siegfried - 5:5, maybe even slight advantage for Siegfried
Tira - 5:5
Viola -
Voldo - probably 4:6, nor sure
Xiba -
Yoshimitsu - 4:6
ZWEI -


Concerning Algol:
In SC4, I'm pretty sure it was 3:7 because Algol was mostly safe und had that annoying bubble shield.
Now, I don't think it's easy, but it's not as one-sided as it was in SC4.
Leixia can punish most of his unsafe stuff, for example 3AA, 1A, 66A, 3BB, 1K. If Algol had no 623B, Leixia would be clearly better at closerange, but that move is so fucking annoying, even though it's -22 iirc. And Algol can't really make an important use of his backstep-catcher. Why would you want to backstep against Algol with Leixia anyway? Another thing that Leixia has over Algol is her Guard Burst game and her safeness. Algol can't punish most of her unsafe moves with something better than AA or BB.
But of course, Algol has still the edge in here, because he controls spacing way better and does like 5133264623 times more damage than Leixia. Not to mention that his full screen CE CE whiffpunisher fucks up Leixia's baits at midrange. I believe it was kind of even pre-patch, but now that Leixia does less and Algol even more damage and WS B BE evades worse, it's definitely in Algol's favour. But not as bad as Mitsu or Alpha imo.
 
He still has bubble shield though, so I'm not sure why that's changed. He does seem less safe though. Another thing I find annoying is his 6BB string or whatever, where he shoots a slow bubble as the 3rd hit. Gives him free offense. I know you can duck the 2nd hit if you block it, but if it hits, it's a straight up guess.

Oh man, that list of yours makes her look low tier, lol... And Alpha 3/7 really? Why? I've only played Woahhzz's alpha a couple times so I'm not that familiar with the matchup yet.
 
I'm not 100% sure, but it seems to me that bubble shooting has a bigger recovery than in SC4. Either that, or I was just too passive in SC4. I have to look at the 6BB string later, can't test it now.

Well, to be honest, I think Leixia is lower mid. I'd say that pre-patch she only had 4:6, 5:5, and 6:4 matchups, now it's mostly from 3:7 to 5:5 with some exceptions (Raphael, probably some more).
I'll elaborate more on Leixia vs Alpha later when I have time, for now, only line: Risk/reward is ridiculous here.
 
Kalas said:
My list for the moment:

Aeon -
Algol - 4:6
å-Patroklos - 3:7
Astaroth - 4:6
Cervantes -3:7
Dampierre -
Ezio -
Hilde - 5:5, not sure
Ivy - 4:6
Maxi -
Mitsurugi - 3:7
Natsu - 4:6
Nightmare - 4:6 or 5:5, but I feel like Nightmare has the edge
Patroklos - 4:6
Pyrrha - 4:6
Pyrrha-Ω - 4:6
Raphael - 6:4
Siegfried - 5:5, maybe even slight advantage for Siegfried
Tira - 5:5
Viola -
Voldo - probably 4:6, nor sure
Xiba -
Yoshimitsu - 4:6
ZWEI -
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Are you saying Algol, Natsu, Ivy, Pyrrha are 4:6 in their favor or Leixia's? If so, then those numbers look correct.

I'd probably push Natsu and Pyrrha up to 7. I don't think Omega is favored in this match-up yet. Against Raphael? I think that's fairly even and probably not in Leixia's favor. Nightmare is probably in Leixia's favor here, or pretty even. While there's a lot Nightmare can do to Leixia, there's a lot of stuff of Leixia's that can work for her too.

Xiba is fairly even. Mitsurugi isn't that favored in this fight and Maxi I think is pretty even. His 2A can wreck a lot of Leixia's stuff, but it seems he has trouble punishing a few things.

As for Alpha, this actually isn't too bad. There's actually a lot Leixia can try against Alpha, despite his ability. For the most part, he'll have a hard time dealing with Leixia's frame traps and you can bait his CE with them. For Hilde, I think Leixia is slightly favored. Her 4A+B breaks her A+B on second hit, as well as her 3A, though there is more to Hilde than those two moves. Against Cervantes, Leixia's at a slight disadvantage. There's a few things Cervantes can do to really mess up her game, but it seems he doesn't have an answer for a few options.

Dampierre is in her favor. Ezio is... probably in her favor. Viola I'm not too sure. Like Tira, I don't think she has a real bad or good match up against anyone.

As for Patroklos... outside of his A+B wreck her aB feints... I don't think he has that much against her. They're probably fairly even here.
 
wow I wonder why leixia doesn't have alot of 5:5 matchups=o most of them im seeing are 4:6
 
JustinAkatsuki said:
wow I wonder why leixia doesn't have alot of 5:5 matchups=o most of them im seeing are 4:6
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These are just difference in opinions at the moment. If you look at my Matchup chart you'll see more 5:5s than 4:6s. It's not the gospel or anything, lol. especially not this soon.
 
The 4:6 match-ups are based on Kalas's experience in high level play though. Leixia's generally low damage output is the key reason we see her being weak in this game. CH damage and BE / CE damage for some (if not most) characters is so high that having low damage in this game is a serious, serious problem.

Consider Siegfried. Many people (myself included) considered him to be very weak when this game first emerged. On paper, his tools are either relatively weak, or massively unsafe. He seemed too risky to use. But because of his CH damage, and NH damage when buffed with meter, he can obliterate his opponent with a few good reads, like we saw Omega do in the world finals, or like two of the top Japanese players have been doing since the game came out.

Leixia on the other hand has some of the best tools in the game in theory. She has amazing evasion, super safety, and a nice mix of feints and anti-steps. But the problem is, none of them do any damage. It might be difficult to hit Leixia, but once you do, you make up for all the time she's been tickling you to death with her feather duster.

My point is that, imo, the game has changed. We are used to speed and safety and +frames being of super importance in SC, but for the moment I feel that in this game, they're not. It's much more about playing the odds and looking to get that big combo and knockdown oki wherever possible. Leixia's problem is that she doesn't have that big combo. Her 3B gives her 41 damage. So she's playing a cutesy, tappy-tappy game where the other characters are engaged in a slugfest.

Her problems imo were mitigated pre-patch by WR B BE. Sure her mix-ups were weak and her damage poor, but the great thing was, Leixia was as dangerous after being knocked down as she was standing up. WR B BE used to be completely invincible to Vertical attacks from frame 1, meaning that once you knocked Leixia down, you had to use low sweeps or throws. In other words, pressuring her with oki was much more difficult, because WR B BE was like a super-Crybaby.

But it doesn't work like that any more. You can't use it randomly from the ground, you'll just get hit, and the damage was nerfed too. And now that 22K knockdown is gone, FC 3B damage is small, and WR B BE invincibility is gone, she really doesn't have anything for her opponent to fear. So her opponents can play high risk all day long going for the big damage, knowing that any mistakes (even bad mistakes) won't go heavily punished, unlike against the rest of the cast.
 
At first, I felt like posting something like "Stop crying scrub, we all know she's still High Tier", but I feared that a lot people would have taken that seriously.

You kind of hit the nail on the spot. Frame traps, safety and guard burst is fine, but it does not compensate for the ridiculous low damage in 80% of the match-ups. I'd rather have her 3B -18 if it did 70dmg on CH.


Windstar said:
Are you saying Algol, Natsu, Ivy, Pyrrha are 4:6 in their favor or Leixia's?
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4:6 means 4 for Leixia, 6 for the others. So disadvantage for Leixia.
 
Kalas said:
At first, I felt like posting something like "Stop crying scrub, we all know she's still High Tier", but I feared that a lot people would have taken that seriously.
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I would've gotten the joke. Even if it turns out that Kalas is right and I'm dead wrong, I'm used to playing 3/7 matchups as Talim, lol. So 4:6 is like a blessing to me.
 
I don't agree with Natsu being in favor against Leixia at all.. In fact it's one of my easiest matchups.. Leixia seems like she has the clear advantage in that one.. I won't argue about any other matchups although I necessarily don't agree with them either..
 
I would like to add that I agree with Zero's matchup chart for the most part although I tend to overrate Leixia.. I'd probably have her 6:4 against most of the cast haha..
 
Far as Natsu goes, I have it at 5:5 because I'm not absolutely sure who has the edge. Natsu being able to punish her best tools is rather annoying, even though in a real match it won't happen every time. Crybaby does well vs her wakeup so bomb traps for the most part are useless.

But Natsu has ways to get in and deal damage with 22A and 66B. Especially with the movement nerf, this can be an issue too. So that one is kinda hovering at 5:5 to 4:6 in Natsu's favor, imo.
 
ZeroEffect317 said:
Does anyone know about Algol? I mean, to me projectile anti-step is still kinda huge in this game and he has good damage. And an aGI that TCs highs and beats everything else. Is there something I'm missing or is this character actually too much?
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The French community generally considers Algol to be one of the top-5 tier in this game, so yeah, prob a little too much.

If you watch any matches involving Sakon for example, he is able to do enormous damage combos using pretty safe pokes and attacks.

Personally I don't know the character well enough to have a solid opinion. I generally focus on punishing him and moving a lot.

For Natsu, she has a lot of tools that are problematic for Leixia. Her AAB is faster than Leixia's, great for counter-hit fishing, and A:6 can punish all kinds of attacks like 66K, WR A and FC 3B. Her whiff-punishing is also far more damaging than Leixia's, with 4A+B and 66B. And WR K on CH, fully TC, is a real problem too.

In Leixia's favour, she can compete with Natsu's speed where most characters can't. She can also defeat PO easily with WR B. She has better close range tools, and arguably a better throw game until Natsu gets BE. She can punish Natsu fairly well. Her Guard Burst game is also better.

Because of damage and i10 punisher it is probably 6:4 for Natsu.
 
Age_of_Truth said:
The French community generally considers Algol to be one of the top-5 tier in this game, so yeah, prob a little too much.

If you watch any matches involving Sakon for example, he is able to do enormous damage combos using pretty safe pokes and attacks.

Personally I don't know the character well enough to have a solid opinion. I generally focus on punishing him and moving a lot.
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Well I practiced a little bit against Algol, and I've watched some Sakon vids. Seems like she can get in there and pressure better than I thought, but yeah, definitely not in Lexy's favor. The aGI is a pain too since she can't punish for more than 50 even if she baits it.

Age_of_Truth said:
For Natsu, she has a lot of tools that are problematic for Leixia. Her AAB is faster than Leixia's, great for counter-hit fishing, and A:6 can punish all kinds of attacks like 66K, WR A and FC 3B. Her whiff-punishing is also far more damaging than Leixia's, with 4A+B and 66B. And WR K on CH, fully TC, is a real problem too.

In Leixia's favour, she can compete with Natsu's speed where most characters can't. She can also defeat PO easily with WR B. She has better close range tools, and arguably a better throw game until Natsu gets BE. She can punish Natsu fairly well. Her Guard Burst game is also better.

Because of damage and i10 punisher it is probably 6:4 for Natsu.
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This post + crybaby. Crybaby is extremely good against Natsu oki bombs and PO. That's why I feel like it's close between even and Natsu's favor. Also, WS A and 66K can only be punished if blocked at close ranges. Spaced properly they are both safe. (EX: 6KK on hit into 66K can't be punished by Natsu).

Something i found out through testing is that Natsu AA can interrupt FC 3B after 6KK hits. BUT, if you do WS A afterwards instead you trade. Because of the trade, Lexy's at +15 now so you get a free 6KK KND. (if you don't have meter for CE of course.)
 
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