Leixia Matchup Chart Discussion Thread

[ZeroEffect317]

Well... I still haven't yet fought an Omega that makes me think otherwise. If I ever do, I'll change it.

so that's 3 good matchups, 11 even ones, 5 slightly bad, and 3 awful matchups. Still don't know Hilde or Damp.

 

[Kalas]

Zero, I really really appreciate the way you fight your way through with Leixia, but I think that you're WAY too optimistic about several match-ups. I can imagine your arguments why you think they are "not that bad", but the other characters also have tricks against Leixia that are, how else coud it be, sometimes twice as rewarding as Leixia's trickbox.

I don't know each character myself, but there are some match-ups I'm experienced in and where I can only disagree with yours.

Things I'd definitely change in your list:

Astaroth vs Leixia 4:6 (---> barely is maybe correct, but in the other direction; it's close to 3:7 imo, if not a 3:7)
Natsu vs Leixia 5:5 ---> 4:6
Patroklos vs Leixia 5:5 ---> 4:6
Pyrrha Omega vs Leixia 5:5 ---> 4:6
Siegfried vs Leixia 6:4 ---> at best a 5:5, I'm actually pretty sure Siegfried has a slight advantage
Yoshimitsu vs Leixia 5:5 ---> 4:6

I'm not sure about Viola, Voldo, Xiba and Maxi, but I honestly have no idea why Leixia should be a counter pick to Voldo.

 

[Therenovator]

New Chart opinions due to being stuck in class with nothing much to do...

Aeon - 5/5
Algol - 4/6
å-Patroklos - 3/7
Astaroth - 4/6 (barely)
Cervantes - 3/7
Dampierre - N/A
Ezio - 5/5
Hilde - N/A
Ivy - 4/6
Maxi - 5/5
Mitsurugi - 3/7
Natsu - 5/5
Nightmare - 4/6
Patroklos - 5/5
Pyrrha - 4/6
Pyrrha-Ω - 5/5
Raphael - 6/4
Siegfried - 6/4 (maybe even)
Tira - 5/5
Viola - 5/5
Voldo - 6/4
Xiba - 5/5
Yoshimitsu - 5/5
ZWEI - 5/5

i agree with your chart except 3 things viola vs leixia is 6 4 in leixia favour
Cervantes is not 7 3 vs leixia no way thats a 5 5(Cervantes has to take risk to keep up with leixia hes too unsafe to be comfortable.
an aggressive leixia should win this with ease.)
alpha pat vs leixia is not that one sided maybe a 6 4.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

etc.

etc.

You cats are crazy.

Why is Leixia v Tira still 5/5? Are we playing the same game?

I suspect Algol - Lexia is 7:3 but dunno, haven't seen top tier players going at it.

No way is Xiba Leixia 5/5 anymore after the patch. Just no way.

Maxou was pretty sure that Voldo and Yoshi are too strong for Leixia, I haven't played against the best but I suspect he's right.

ZWEI is MAYBE one of the few good matchups for Leixia.

 

[Kalas]

Don't know about Tira, I mostly disagree with Zeros opinions on Omega, Siegfried, Patrollklos, Natsu and Yoshimitsu. No way they are even with Leixia, except maybe Siegfried. The more I play Tira, the more I understand how good she is in comparison to Leixia (even Jolly does more damage than Leixia), but I have almost no experience in a match between them.

I'm not exactly sure on Algol either. 6:4 or 7:3, when he has meter he's actually an auto-win against her, because he does like five times more damage.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Yeah I figured I'd be alone in this, lol. But for real, I don't get how Voldo and Yoshi would be too strong for her. Especially Voldo. I mean if we're just talking damage than she'd be 4/6 against everyone including Zwei and Raph. Essentially she'd be the very worst character in the game at this point.

What about Pat is so dominating in this matchup that he doesn't have in his other matchups? We all know he has strong tools, but what specifically does he do to really cripple Lex? After playing Tira for a while myself I see why she's good. But again, same question.

Omega is iffy I'll admit, but as I said, I haven't yet played an Omega that showed me Lex can't hang w her either.

EDIT: And Xiba? Pre patch it was in her favor easily. Now I feel like it's evened out. He can't keep her away for long, he can barely punish her unsafe moves on block, and once she's in he struggles. That character is not very good at all imo. He has his damage, (even that was nerfed for some reason), but he just doesn't have the tools to do what he's supposed to correctly.

 

[Kalas]

It is not only damage, of course.

However, I think it's one of the most important aspects with regard to how good a character does in SC5, because it is so damage-orientated, more than SC4 and probably any other game of the series. Characters like Alpha, Cervantes or Mitsu are not considered top tier because of their "attack rate" or "frame traps", but mostly because of their damage (there are other aspects, too, but I don't want to go so much into detail, I think you get what I mean).

So, to me it is evident, that Leixia very often has an automatic slight disadvantage, because she lacks one of the - if not THE - important aspect of the game. She also lacks other things like spacing, zoning and a useful low-mid-mixup (and no, the mixup of an i19 launcher FC3B and an i47 low FC3bB is NOT a low-mid-mixup).

When you have a look at a match-up, you have to weigh each character's strenghts, weaknesses and how much the other character can counter these.
And one instant weakness of Leixia, as you mentioned, is Leixia's lack of damage. Of course it's not the only thing, but it is present. So if a match-up is even for Leixia, she needs to have an ace in the hole that compensates for that. And that would mean that Leixia would actually be the better character (taking damage aside).

For example:
If Leixia vs Patroklos is even according to you; then what is Leixia's ace here that makes her overcame the huge damage difference? Same for Yoshi, Natsu, Pyrrha Omega.

Leixia's aces are - to a certain extent - frame traps, safeness (but depends on the opponent) and interrupts.
That means, that in order to have a good or even match-up from Leixia's point of view, her opponents has to have/be (either)
a) relatively low/moderate damage as well
b) weak whiffpunishment, when Leixia spaces incorrectly and her evades get stepped
c) relatively slow
d) short-ranged, because Leixia is very bad at spacing, whiffpunishing and blockpunishing long-ranged moves
e) poor tools to shut down movement

I don't see characters like Patroklos, Yoshi, Natsu or Pyrrha Omega having any mentionable weaknesses that fit with a) - e), thus, I don't see Leixia having a compensation for her lack of damage.

 

[Therenovator]

@kalas, i think you fail to realize that damage is not everything in this game. infact you need to understand that this game is not about how much damage you do but how many times you can open your opponent up.
let me just tell you are more likely to eat leixia's launcher than Cervantes launcher.
if this game was so damage concerned then astaroth will be winning every tourney maybe you should play a character that has heavy damage.
you can only compare the damage of certain characters if they have the same move set,you have to take into account the frames and speed.
leixia has many good point over the characters you mentioned part from natsu she has much better movement than all of them much safer.
she out ranges natsu but im sure you have notice but even though they do so much more damage have you ever notice why leixia is able to hang with all of them and the matches seem close.
i have never played a patrolklos that ever gave me trouble using leixia.
for the speed leixia has her range is very good thats why her damage is low well thats what daishi told me anyway.
leixia had the lowest damage pre patch, it only now her tools have been weakened that you notice it more.
i think namco need to focus on buffing her move set like 22k knocking down WR B BE evading again like pre patch. but she does need a damage buff now here move set is weakened.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

a) relatively low/moderate damage as well
b) weak whiffpunishment, when Leixia spaces incorrectly and her evades get stepped
c) relatively slow
d) short-ranged, because Leixia is very bad at spacing, whiffpunishing and blockpunishing long-ranged moves
e) poor tools to shut down movement

True.


I do think Astaroth has those weaknesses though which is why I think the match-up is not too bad. NH damage, actual whiffpunishment (not guesses with 22B), speed and anti-step are bad for Asta. Range is better but his recovery on ranged moves is bad making it not a chore getting close (unlike vs Mitsu or Cervantes where it is borderline ridiculous trying to getting in range)

Some other things:

Natsu can punish 3B and FC 3B with A:6, meaning you have to use low damage pokes only against her (a whopping 56 damage off FC 3B is too much for this match-up). Leixia has advantages but any whiff and Natsu can kill you fast.

Yoshi is a solid character and does a lot of damage. Even 6K, which is a pretty risky move, becomes viable because Leixia can only punish it for 41 damage unless she has eneough meter and is willing to use it. However having FC 3B to punish FC 3K and Dragonfly K is nice for Leixia in this match-up.

Patroklos only needs one good read/guess to hit you with 66B or B+K. He's dealing double to triple damage with the same kinds of pokes and crushing moves. Sure Leixia has CH 66BB, but if they just block and step? Death to Leixia.

Xiba is in no way bad. He is extremely solid and does masses of damage from his bread-and-butter attacks. Against Leixia he takes little risk in going for his huge rewards. I've played Xiba loads, one of our top players over here is Grunt Dude (you can watch him in the Edge Master Series tournaments we had over here) and I don't even bother using Leixia against him any more, I can't get a round.

Killing WR B BE has really hurt Leixia badly. The move had the potential to completely ruin certain characters' mix-ups and strategies. Leixia was a broken bitch before the patch, but more than half the cast are like this now. She was a decent character pre-patch and got nerfed over and over again. So you're left with a character that can't compete in this risk-based damage game.

BTW sorry to those like TiZ and others who are learning the game and don't want to read this kind of stuff. Leixia is a fun character to play and you can win with her. We're just talking about tier lists for tournaments, and I doubt you're going to see a Leixia winning any big tournaments, because she has too many weaknesses that a top player can exploit if they know the match-up. I'm not saying every match you play against anyone is an auto-loss, far from it.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

The way I see Lex right now, her best strengths are her safety and ability to play so well at midrange against many characters. In the case of Pat, this is his weakness, because even with the backstep nerf boosting his 66B, Pat still struggles with characters that can fight better than him at said range and farther.

Having said that, Leixia's biggest problems imo, (behind poor damage of course), happen when she fights a character who can dominate midrange over her. (the Ivy's, the Mitsu's, the Cervy's etc.) At long range she can't do much of anything, and she's not the best in-your-face style character (lacking 50/50s as you said). Of the chars you mentioned, Natsu is probably the biggest threat to her mid range game. If that ends up being 4/6 down the road, then fine. But atm, with the absence of .5 scores, I felt it wasn't enough disadv. to give the nod to Natsu.

Trust me, we both agree she needs damage buffs. No argument there. I'm just strictly talking about which characters hurt her gameplan the most.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

@kalas, i think you fail to realize that damage is not everything in this game. infact you need to understand that this game is not about how much damage you do but how many times you can open your opponent up....
...she out ranges natsu
...i have never played a patrolklos that ever gave me trouble using leixia.
...for the speed leixia has her range is very good thats why her damage is low
...i think namco need to focus on buffing her move set like 22k knocking down WR B BE evading again like pre patch. but she does need a damage buff now here move set is weakened.

Look man Kalas is one of the best players in the world, why are you telling him what he needs to understand?
She does not outrange Natsu
You have never played a good Patroklos
Leixia doesn't have good range, what character has worse range than Leixia?
Yes Namco had designed a good character pre-patch and they ruined her because why? All I got back in April was that Utoh said "it's really annoying to fight her". Nice one. If you want to have her low damage, make her RIDICULOUS elsewhere, so that she is the same as the other characters with RIDICULOUS tools and RIDICULOUS damage.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

I've played Xiba loads, one of our top players over here is Grunt Dude (you can watch him in the Edge Master Series tournaments we had over here) and I don't even bother using Leixia against him any more, I can't get a round.

Do you have any vids of you and him Lex/Xiba? I've fought Xiba a bit and actually mained him before Leixia took over. So maybe your partner can show me some things about how Xiba beats her.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

Do you have any vids of you and him Lex/Xiba? I've fought Xiba a bit and actually mained him before Leixia took over. So maybe your partner can show me some things about how Xiba beats her.

EMS is monthly and the top 8 Winners bracket has always been recorded. You can find all of the videos here:

http://8wayrun.com/threads/edge-master-series.12084/

Grunt Dude has always made top 8 and got 3rd and second at the last two, so there are plenty of vids. I haven't used Leixia against him since EMS I group stages, except online.

Xiba has:

22B which is sidestep and TC and loads of damage.
4A which evades all sorts of stuff.
3B and 6B which are his staple mids.
6A antistep and midrange poke for massive damage on CH.
4B for whiffpunish and TC and good damage.
A+B combo for half-bar damage which can be used after guard crush.
Really excellent guard crush game if you are trying to avoid being hit by his massive damage.
3A+B / 1A+B which are anti-step and good for ground pressure, and not that easy to react to, and give excellent advantage if broken.
Solid lows and pokes like bK, 3A, 1K, 66A.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Ok I'll watch the vids when I get done with class.

Honestly, I've never had an issue with 4A or 3B (outside whiff punishes). His guard crush is better than I originally gave it credit for, I'll admit. I just find that if you pressure him with auto step moves and TCs, he has a hard time stopping people from pressing buttons without spending meter.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

Ok I'll watch the vids when I get done with class.

Honestly, I've never had an issue with 4A or 3B (outside whiff punishes). His guard crush is better than I originally gave it credit for, I'll admit. I just find that if you pressure him with auto step moves and TCs, he has a hard time stopping people from pressing buttons without spending meter.

So he spends meter. Have you seen the damage from his Kong Head Slam? You want to go attacking Xiba at disadvantage with TCs, good luck to you.

 

[ZeroEffect317]

Lol, I don't even know what Kong Head Slam is. I'm guessing CH 6B?

Anyway, it's not about only using TCs. It's a combination of evasive moves. Xiba was always pretty good at dealing with WS B even pre patch, so the nerfs to that move don't feel as heavy as other matchups like Sieg.

 

[Kalas]

Seriously, I don't even know where to start, but I tried my best to answer you post:

1
1.) i think you fail to realize that damage is not everything in this game. infact you need to understand that this game is not about how much damage you do but how many times you can open your opponent up.
2.) let me just tell you are more likely to eat leixia's launcher than Cervantes launcher.
3.) if this game was so damage concerned then astaroth will be winning every tourney maybe you should play a character that has heavy damage.
4.) you can only compare the damage of certain characters if they have the same move set,you have to take into account the frames and speed.
5.) she out ranges natsu but im sure you have notice but even though they do so much more damage have you ever notice why leixia is able to hang with all of them and the matches seem close.
6.) i have never played a patrolklos that ever gave me trouble using leixia.
7.) for the speed leixia has her range is very good thats why her damage is low well thats what daishi told me anyway.

1. As you have probably noticed, I mentioned that "damage" is one of the important aspects to take into consideration, not the only one.
2. I wouldn't even say that this is true, but: What's the sense in that statement anyway?
3. + 4. As you said, you have to take frames and speed into consideration as well, and I've already done that. Because if we talked about "naked numbers", then Leixia could compete as well. She has 44[A] for example which gives 96dmg for one BE and huge damage with a wall behind the opponent. But tell me how often does Leixia hit somebody with 44[A], and how often does Patroklos hit with 66B, or Pyrrha Omega with DNS B, or Astaroth with 66K BE, or Alpha Patroklos with CH 33B or 44B+K BE?
It's not about the damage itself, but about how easily you can apply it - and this is exactly the bad thing about Leixia in comparison to the others. So many characters can do so much more damage with moves that are not riskier (in the contrary) than hers. So how is this balanced?
5.) No she does not, and a lot of people still don't step 66BB or JG 66AA, so they are not playing the best game possible against Leixia.
6.) Feel lucky.
7.) I don't know if Daishi really said that to you, but I can assure you it's wrong.

But I won't even talk about your opinion on Leixia vs Cervantes being 5:5... I think we don't play the same game sometimes.

 

[Therenovator]

Look man Kalas is one of the best players in the world, why are you telling him what he needs to understand?
She does not outrange Natsu
You have never played a good Patroklos
Leixia doesn't have good range, what character has worse range than Leixia?
Yes Namco had designed a good character pre-patch and they ruined her because why? All I got back in April was that Utoh said "it's really annoying to fight her". Nice one. If you want to have her low damage, make her RIDICULOUS elsewhere, so that she is the same as the other characters with RIDICULOUS tools and RIDICULOUS damage.

please stop talking rubbish yes i know kalas is good but im just as good you dont even know who i am or who ive played please keep it civil ok.
kalas is a solid leixia player good for him but im also a very solid leixia player so im sorry but you should say best player that you know of.
i said this many dont patronize me becaus you dont know me or what im capable of in terms of player ability.

 

[Age_of_Truth]

kalas is good but im just as good ....

hahahaha

 

[docvizzo]

please stop talking rubbish yes i know kalas is good but im just as good you dont even know who i am or who ive played please keep it civil ok.
kalas is a solid leixia player good for him but im also a very solid leixia player so im sorry but you should say best player that you know of.
i said this many dont patronize me becaus you dont know me or what im capable of in terms of player ability.

You fail to realize™ that nobody cares about your internet heroism. Just amaze us by telling us your identity, so we can know for sure that your scrubtalk in fact is based on solid play. Or upload some vids or start giving specific information insetad of that whole blabla.

You also fail to realize™ that punctuation matters.