[MATCH-UP] Viola

So my theory is confirmed: E.I.N. and Viola's Orb registers as kicks on hit, and so Raph's auto-GIs will not work against them.

This is true across the board for E.I.N., as he's an assist character, and not an actual weapon. Not that it matters though, since Raph trumps Z.W.E.I. in so many other ways.

For Viola, there are one or two exceptions: any time the orb directly follows her hands (i.e. she uses the orb as if it were a handheld weapon), it will register as a weapon on hit, which means they can be auto-GI'd by Raph. 3B and 66A+B are the most obvious examples. It means that Raph can Prep GI and B+K her 3B, and punish severely, which is a huge plus.

It also means that 6A+B cannot be B+K'd (sorry, Zanaken).
 
6A+B, where she shoots the orb forward?

Dude, Violas that like to start the round with that always get my B+K, it CAN be B+K'd.
 
Just pick Raph for arcade, hard mode, and on round 5 you'll see Viola who loves to start with it. Just mash B+K on the round countdown till she shoots it forward.
 
If you're up for video recording your matches sometime in the future, could u also capture that ? Seems like us fighting through 4 arcade rounds to test that may not be the most prudent.

However, I do recall training mode bugs like 2p bot Raph, if he enters Prep, will NOT automatically SE against highs.
This bug may be something in training mode only and not in a real match.
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Try 1P Viola and 2P Raph.

Program Raph to do wrA, B+K. 1P viola should input 6A+B after blocking wrA.

Whats really odd is that it sometimes work on max range and sometimes doesn't. It almost never works up close.

I tried with 3K and wrB and I still can't consistently get B+K to fire. If it does, viola is in for a world of hurt because you get Raph's 2B+K A+BA 66A+B or BT grab mixup.
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Then I try 1P Raph and 2P viola. Program Viola to immediately 6A+B after allguarding.

Raph's wrB/wrA/3K into B+K setups all seem to fail here.

66A+B at tip range sometimes work and sometimes doesn't. I can't really explain it.
66B, delay into B+K seems to be the most consistent way to make B+K work against viola's 6A+B.

Either training mode is whack or the orb interactions is way off. There is at least 7 frames to actively necroform so I don't think it's a first-frame only thing like how prep4 has some weird interactions with other moves.
 
I wouldn't count the distance at the round start as "max range" but seeing as I can't play right now, I'll take your word for it, WuHT.

Just a little thing for you to try, if range changes the properties of some projectiles, do you feel like attempting some Algol orb shenanigans?

I only really get to squeeze in matches around friends houses these days to be honest, I've left my damn stick at my buddy's for ages now. After Christmas I can focus more on playing the game and experimenting with this stuff, but right now I am just over-working IRL.
 
TheMikenyan said:
So my theory is confirmed: E.I.N. and Viola's Orb registers as kicks on hit, and so Raph's auto-GIs will not work against them.
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If that's the case, why does Pyrrha's aGI registers them as vertical or horizontal mids. You never get the aGI for a "Kick" parry.
 
I'd hate to argue against my own point, but is Pyrrha a good origin to base all character aGI's on?
 
I think you missed my point. I was asking if Pyrrha is a good indication of others, I did not say that Raphael was/is/could be.
 
Xeph said:
Is Raphaels?
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Zanaken has a point. Raphael can GI weapon attacks (very specific for horizontals/verticals) but not body attacks including kicks but Pyrrha's aGI attacks can almost impact almost all mids, whether it is a weapon or body attack!!! Her CE does while it says for her A+B, it GIs mids except thrusts. I guess she is very lucky to be able to GI the orb and EIN, which don't really fit within the categories of "body attacks" or "thrusts".

Along the lines of Raph's B+K vs Viola's orb, is it the best most reliable option?? If B+K is risky enough and hard enough t use (activates on the 10th frame), why not just QS the orb and punish with 33K$ instead, for example.
 
Execution isn't really an issue, the strength of the move itself is.

I was pointing out that whilst Pyrrha's GI can indicate the type of move based on the attack she uses after the GI, it might not show a character wide reaction. She sees it as a kick, sure, but does everyone else? This kind of mechanics testing could be game, or character, specific.

If you have 1 meter, B+K CE is better than 33K BE with .5 meter spare. This is a personal opinion, currently, I just believe getting the most damage -at the time- takes priority.

Don't get me wrong, I love mix-ups, it's just I want to also know my highest damage options as well.
 
@Zanaken: I gave both your suggestions and WuHT's a try, and I had pretty much the same results as him.

I set VS. Mode to Player vs. CPU on Very Hard, and sure enough, Viola opened with 6A+B. Like you said, mashing out B+K gets the auto-evade. But only from starting range.

Something akin to what WuHT said, it seems to be a tip-range scenario, but I think there's more to it than that. B+K only works at that exact range, which is pretty much only the case at the round start. And in that scenario, there is one constant factor: Viola is holding the orb. It just does not work if she has to summon the orb first.

As I've been proposing, B+K and the other aGIs only seem to work against certain moves where Viola wields the orb as as though it were a handheld weapon; the only orb moves that fit this description that I know of are 3B and 66A+B (if you know of more, let me hear them), and both can be B+K'd with ease.

The way I see it, the moment that B+K evades 6A+B at the round's beginning is either the very tip range of Viola's claw, or it might be the orb extending her arm's reach, and the B+K connects before the orb leaves her hand. It's incredibly nitpicky and unclear. Either way, it only works in this incredibly rare scenario, and it somehow seems to fit with this theory of mine.

As a sidenote, I just noticed your Gamertag and realised I was fighting you a fair bit the other night!

Xeph said:
If that's the case, why does Pyrrha's aGI registers them as vertical or horizontal mids. You never get the aGI for a "Kick" parry.
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That's a good point, and I don't have an explanation. I thought it might be to do with the button pressed (i.e. A or B, resulting in A or B aGI counters from Pyrrha), but I tested this against Devil Jin (whose every move registers as a kick), and Pyrrha uses the K counter, regardless of input.

On the other hand, Viola does throw the orb when her Jumping K hits or is blocked - no weapon button input is involved. I don't know if any other character uses their weapon from just a K input. Is there one? If not, it could just be a grey area in the game design.

But either way, Raph's aGIs and B+K - which explicitly don't work against kicks - do not work against the orb, except when Viola actually swings it like a weapon. I can't think of a better way to explain it.

Fendante said:
Along the lines of Raph's B+K vs Viola's orb, is it the best most reliable option?? If B+K is risky enough and hard enough t use (activates on the 10th frame), why not just QS the orb and punish with 33K$ instead, for example.
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Valid point, but I just want to know what all the options are - every move has a use, circumstantial or otherwise. This is more about working out why these moves don't work as advertised against two characters, and what the options are based on that.
 
TheMikenyan said:
@Zanaken: I gave both your suggestions and WuHT's a try, and I had pretty much the same results as him.
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Thanks, glad you guys found the answer, but I think there's still more to be found for B+K uses vs Viola.
TheMikenyan said:
As a sidenote, I just noticed your Gamertag and realised I was fighting you a fair bit the other night!
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Elysium vs your Raph, right? I failed CS like 4 times at one point?
 
Does anyone know what Raph gets off Viola's 6B+K shenanigans? I spent all day playing guess the grab with a Viola in player match. Was hoping for something, at least for individual mix-ups. Would rather not duck and eat half health.

Edit: Never mind, I just play her now.

Edit:Edit: Oh, before I forget.

The best method I found is ironic in its inputs. You meet her 6B+K with your own. You can 6B+K 3A+B:5. The 3A+B:5 can be escaped, but not punished in nearly any way. You can 2/8B+K to mix-up on top.
 
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