Matchups subthread

Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Truth is, French matchup chart is just as useless as everything else.
Unless people agree on some kind of rules and criterias it will all be pointless. whole discussion will be about who punishes who and how and why char A can do matchup B without using particular move C at all.
Maximum number of people who can agree on something without definite ruleset is 2.

And Doc, people create tier and matchup threads not b/c they want to know who beats who - most people have their concrete opinion about this that wont budge, they discuss it b/c its fun to read scrub opinion. Hop in, the fun is just begnning.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Agreed i dont think a matchup can really be concluded just from what works on what cause it really just comes down to who was spaceing the best and who was guessing correctly the most and stuff like that also matchups are normally based on how someone thinks the character is meant to be played which can be a complete different veiw from someone else.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Honestly, I think the mods should fight each other in a friendly match.
You know like Bubbles' mains versus mikosu's mains (for instance).
Example: Raph mod versus Tira mod. Forms some matchup for Tira vs. Raphael.
And maybe an opinion can be formed for the matchup charts.
Just a humble thought from Pocky Yoshi.
*:sc2yos2:*
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

When it comes to X vs Cervy or anyone vs Cervy these are the key points.
1. Don't be aggressive and constantly step G to the left
2. Wait for cervy to do a move. Block. Punish accordingly.

That's it. Plain and simple. And what I mean by that is all his best moves are unsafe. Examples iGDR= free backthrow, WR A -19, aB -18, 2A+B -14 (don't do any high move), BB -15, 33B -16, 3B -14, 1K -16 etc etc.

I will admit fc A+B GB is a great move but its -24 without the GB. So my reasons for putting X above Cervy is she has a better step, is far safer, more evasive, can punish him very well, and doesn't have to take as many risks as he does to get damage. So in practice AND theoretically X is better than cervy.

Character knowledge should be the main factor in deciding character matchup numbers. You should assume each person knows every single thing about the opponents character and decide the positives and negatives accordingly. I dont claim to know every single matchup with X to that extent but I do know anti cervy.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

shadowG said:
When it comes to X vs Cervy or anyone vs Cervy these are the key points.
1. Don't be aggressive and constantly step G to the left
2. Wait for cervy to do a move. Block. Punish accordingly.

That's it. Plain and simple. And what I mean by that is all his best moves are unsafe. Examples iGDR= free backthrow, WR A -19, aB -18, 2A+B -14 (don't do any high move), BB -15, 33B -16, 3B -14, 1K -16 etc etc.

I will admit fc A+B GB is a great move but its -24 without the GB. So my reasons for putting X above Cervy is she has a better step, is far safer, more evasive, can punish him very well, and doesn't have to take as many risks as he does to get damage. So in practice AND theoretically X is better than cervy.

Character knowledge should be the main factor in deciding character matchup numbers. You should assume each person knows every single thing about the opponents character and decide the positives and negatives accordingly. I dont claim to know every single matchup with X to that extent but I do know anti cervy.
Click to expand...

X gets a 2A of 2A+B on block or low grab at close range, she only gets AA off his 3B, aB is a punisher move, WR A isnt really a move that's used much outside of combos and whiff punishing(same goes for iGDR). And your forgetting great moves like bK 0, 3A+B -12(pushes back to much to punish), 6A -1, 66K -5, and 22K -10(autoparries horizontals). Plus the cervantes would have to be a idiot to be beat by someone who's just step Ging and hopeing to punish somthing with pathetic dmg the cervantes would probably just FC A+BBBBBBBB, 3A+B, or grab you out of your step Ging and his grab game is pretty strong. Now if you look at any of the moves you listed and compare the dmg he gets from hitting you to what you can punish with the risk/reward is in his favor by quite a bit most of the time.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Belial said:
Hajime: After 1K cervy can 9[B+K] iTP , rcc 1K etc. its still a +1, advantage is advantage, you can stop other guy from doing something, then mix up. Do I need to mention its FC and set up an awesome grab game? and you can mix up with WSA, 66B or whatever. Honestly its a little bit too much when people start to question is having +1 good or not.
Click to expand...

I never said 1K or +1 were bad. I just indicated that 1K doesn't lead to terribly devastating mix-ups. Most people who have Cervy experience will happily block standing waiting for a mid or a throw. Am I wrong?
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Noface: Yes, b/c _in theory_ if you do nothing, your opponent is free to do anything.
Another reason is b/c every mixup, one part of which is safe becomes favorable in the long run.

It's safe to say 99% of people discussing tier do not base their opinion off any solid base, i.e:

Tier discussion template 1:
player1: char A punish char B with this (frame data related stuff)
player2: but char B punish charA with this (also frame data related stuff)
*they tell each other stuff they both know already for the next hour*

Tier discussion template 2:
player1: you see char A can step char B (has nothing to do with specific matchup)
player2: yes but char B can GI char A (also has nothing to do with specific matchup)
*they proceed to chat about matchup unrelated stuff for the next hour*

Tier discussion template 3:
player1: character A can(t) handle move X from char B (hint: move X deals ~10 damage) (i.e terribly threatening 1K 6K from cervy)
player2: yes but char B(A) can play without using this move at all (hint: nothing of that has ever influenced the match outcome)
*they continue to discuss stuff that has nothing to do with winning the game for the next hour*
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

WARUI_NE said:
ALSO A RAPH HAS TO BE IN PREP ALWAYS even though every good raph knows prep never works offline, also wrote more deatiled match up descriptions

just punish prep
Click to expand...

What's the difference between online and offline preps?

They both can't be stepped on reaction, but just cause you know where to step and when.

And in many good matchups prepping at some distance let you enter SEA/B at low risk.

Am i wrong?
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

So what is your approach to dealing with Cervantes' 1K, 6K? You are left in crouch, so with most characters your options are limited...

Basically he's going to use 6K frametrap if you start attacking, but if you don't attack, he has a monstrous throw game from crouch and FC A+BBB to catch you if you duck...

I would say GI and mash throw break at the same time, but FC A+BBB is VERY painful to get hit by. 66 damage into oki.
If you decide to attack most of the time, 1K 6K (CH) does about 37 damage total, close to good lows like 2KB. So far the best I can come up with is do a GI/throw break simultaneously, or attack with something that does decent damage if he goes for FC A+BBB or grab. Actually I don't even know if this is favorable unless you have something that does like 50 damage from crouching and that can also beat out grabs and FC A+BBB...and this doesn't even address other variables in the mixup. So confusing.

What to do? I actually have a lot of trouble dealing with this move, so it's good that 1K somehow came up for discussion. XD
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

darkfender:
And in many good matchups prepping at some distance let you enter SEA/B at low risk.
Click to expand...
Sadly, there are no style-awards like "best stance entry", "safest stance enry", "dynamic (stance) entry". That strat would be soo golden then =(

Am i wrong?
Click to expand...
since you put it this way. yes! xD

NoFace: tis no place to discuss I'll answer you via PM
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

what i tried to say is:
for ex mitsu FC1B can beat 99% of prep mixup if you enter 3 at melee (all bout A that does low dmg and leaves at disadvantage)....

If you do the same at tip range of 3 FC1B becomes useless cause SEAB/VE is out of range....That SEAB at the right distance can evade lot of moves like 2A and so on and still track a little on the weak side whereas SEAA tracks on the strong leaving raph neutral on block.

What i am saying is that spacing has to be considered also.
Now i know there are better answers to raph preps than FC1B but in some matchups there are not so many.
And 3B is longer than it seems.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

babalook said:
X gets a 2A of 2A+B on block or low grab at close range, she only gets AA off his 3B, aB is a punisher move, WR A isnt really a move that's used much outside of combos and whiff punishing(same goes for iGDR). And your forgetting great moves like bK 0, 3A+B -12(pushes back to much to punish), 6A -1, 66K -5, and 22K -10(autoparries horizontals). Plus the cervantes would have to be a idiot to be beat by someone who's just step Ging and hopeing to punish somthing with pathetic dmg the cervantes would probably just FC A+BBBBBBBB, 3A+B, or grab you out of your step Ging and his grab game is pretty strong. Now if you look at any of the moves you listed and compare the dmg he gets from hitting you to what you can punish with the risk/reward is in his favor by quite a bit most of the time.
Click to expand...
3A+B doesn't punish a quick step guard, just forces block, but it's one of the harder moves to step guard, it's basically that move and Ivy's whip 3A I think are the hardest moves to step guard out of the moves that are even possible to step guard. fcA+BBB is not a concern off a step guard, it won't hit.

Shadow, u beat me best of 3 X vs. Cervy on that laggy widescreen tv right? down to the last hit, we gotta rematch that on a regular tube.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

sWoRD_LoRD said:
3A+B doesn't punish a quick step guard, just forces block, but it's one of the harder moves to step guard, it's basically that move and Ivy's whip 3A I think are the hardest moves to step guard out of the moves that are even possible to step guard. fcA+BBB is not a concern off a step guard, it won't hit.

Shadow, u beat me best of 3 X vs. Cervy on that laggy widescreen tv right? down to the last hit, we gotta rematch that on a regular tube.
Click to expand...

It's not that the FC GB is supposed to hit them out of there step but just get them to block also if I found some person with godlike reaction that could step or get up in time for the FC GB on reaction when they see the twitch duck I could just start twitch ducking into grabs guaranteeing that they wouldn't duck.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

sWoRD_LoRD said:
3A+B doesn't punish a quick step guard, just forces block, but it's one of the harder moves to step guard, it's basically that move and Ivy's whip 3A I think are the hardest moves to step guard out of the moves that are even possible to step guard. fcA+BBB is not a concern off a step guard, it won't hit.

Shadow, u beat me best of 3 X vs. Cervy on that laggy widescreen tv right? down to the last hit, we gotta rematch that on a regular tube.
Click to expand...

SL i dont remember the score vs cervy but I do remember our X v Raph and Raph vs X ft5s. My raph beat your X 5-4 then my X beat your raph 5-1. Which strengthened my deduction that X is 7:3 vs raph when the X player has thorough knowledge of raph. But Belial is right a raph player with better spacing ability will change most matchups.
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

i'm pretty sure I won my X vs. ur Raph 5-4. when we switched tho, I remember that shit was tough to beat ur X with Raph, even on a regular tv I woulda lost that one for sure. Raph is gonna be who I use in that lower tier tourney at gamme so I'll have him at a higher level then. Ur goin right?
 
Another Matchup Chart Attempt

Nofacekill3r said:
So what is your approach to dealing with Cervantes' 1K, 6K? You are left in crouch, so with most characters your options are limited...

Basically he's going to use 6K frametrap if you start attacking, but if you don't attack, he has a monstrous throw game from crouch and FC A+BBB to catch you if you duck...

I would say GI and mash throw break at the same time, but FC A+BBB is VERY painful to get hit by. 66 damage into oki.
If you decide to attack most of the time, 1K 6K (CH) does about 37 damage total, close to good lows like 2KB. So far the best I can come up with is do a GI/throw break simultaneously, or attack with something that does decent damage if he goes for FC A+BBB or grab. Actually I don't even know if this is favorable unless you have something that does like 50 damage from crouching and that can also beat out grabs and FC A+BBB...and this doesn't even address other variables in the mixup. So confusing.

What to do? I actually have a lot of trouble dealing with this move, so it's good that 1K somehow came up for discussion. XD
Click to expand...

I deal with 1K like this, if I am using asta I 2A which beats out his 6K and other stuff, if he attempts WSA I can crouch grab. So it's a mind game, otherwise I 9G or GI.
 
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