Mindgames

Nofacekill3r

Nofacekill3r

[11] Champion
I have seen so many threads and posts about the technical side of Soul Calibur. While this is necessary, I think we've begun to neglect the strategy and mind game aspect of the game. We're talking about going beyond mid/low, frames, move properties, etc. This thread will need input from other players as I honestly don't know a whole lot about the subject myself, and some of the things I say may be incorrect. This is not intended to be a guide, this is a discussion.


There are so many different things we can talk about, the possibilities are almost endless. However, here are a few things I'd like to discuss:


Strategy vs. Tactics

With strategy we're talking more about the big picture. Long term goals.

Tactics deals more with the details, like how you're going to work your strategy.

Risk vs. Reward

This is not only dependent on potential damage/punishment. The risk or reward of certain moves can also involve improved ring positioning, further mixup potential, etc.

Limiting Options

Since much of this game boils down to rock/paper/scissors, it is important to limit your opponents options. A very, very simple example of this would be Amy's B+K. You use this enough times to make your opponent more cautious about doing mids. The expected result is that your opponent either delays his/her attack, or they do a high/low/throw. In either situation, it might be wise to try attacking out of disadvantage with a quick jumping or TC move.

Interestingly enough, most of the characters that the majority of the player base considers "Top Tier" have these sort of evasive moves. Hilde limits options via C3A, excellent step, and the fear of ring out. Voldo has an an abundance of tech crouch moves, many of which go under mids. Amy has aGIs.
Yoshimitsu has iMCF, which in many cases encourages opponents to use their fastest moves. This can result in predictable attack patterns that allow Yoshi to GI,etc. An opponent can counter this by using effective spacing...which brings me to my next point:

Countering Mixups Effectively

Some mixups have counters that beat more than one option. For example, let's assume somebody is pressuring you with Mid/Low mixups. Is there anything in common with the mid and the low? Are they both steppable? Are there any moves that will beat both of them? The list goes on and on.

Training Your Opponent

Training your opponent can also be a method to limit their options, and thus make them more predictable offensively and defensively. For example, GI'ing after a safe move might lead somebody to delay their attacks.

I will definitely edit my post and add more later, these are just some of the things we can discuss. I would like to see many people participate.
 
On the topic of countering mix-ups effectively(maybe a little bit of risk/reward), even if you have to "play their game" as it were in some situation, it's important to look at what kind of pay-off you could be getting if you guess the specific action they will take. A number of mix-ups, the kind that tend to be forced by strings or stances usually, also have themselves a limited repetoir of possibility that you might be able to capitalize on. Ex. Sophie 11AA/11A[A] when the first attack hits and she's already started jumping in the air(say for the sake of argument this is a situation that must be guessed). Sure the second A is -14 on guard, but due to spacing most characters get weak punishes from it, common guess against "no charge" seems to be guard, but a GI beats the same set of options and the Post-GI is likely going to be much stronger then whatever was free on block. Similarly there is a decent amount of time before the charged A will hit so it might be possible to counter her with something that does reasonable damage. Her "mix-up" is not THAT strong in the open field at 30/50, but if the opponent's response is block + wimpy punish/quick weak interrupt, its going to be in her favor to continue trying it.
 
Suirad said:
On the topic of countering mix-ups effectively(maybe a little bit of risk/reward), even if you have to "play their game" as it were in some situation, it's important to look at what kind of pay-off you could be getting if you guess the specific action they will take. A number of mix-ups, the kind that tend to be forced by strings or stances usually, also have themselves a limited repetoir of possibility that you might be able to capitalize on. Ex. Sophie 11AA/11A[A] when the first attack hits and she's already started jumping in the air(say for the sake of argument this is a situation that must be guessed). Sure the second A is -14 on guard, but due to spacing most characters get weak punishes from it, common guess against "no charge" seems to be guard, but a GI beats the same set of options and the Post-GI is likely going to be much stronger then whatever was free on block. Similarly there is a decent amount of time before the charged A will hit so it might be possible to counter her with something that does reasonable damage. Her "mix-up" is not THAT strong in the open field at 30/50, but if the opponent's response is block + wimpy punish/quick weak interrupt, its going to be in her favor to continue trying it.
Click to expand...

I think GI might be a tough sell in that situation, because there are more than 2 different timings for her to release the second A. I get the main point of your post though, and it is greatly appreciated.
 
The two timings are at most 3 frames apart, easily coverable by a standard GI window, but yeah again just using it as an example for the sake of argument cause I couldnt think of anything better offhand.
 
Hmmmm... no where does it say to intentionally lead your opponent into his/her own pattern with continuous taunts and character-based shennanigans while still keeping a cool head... just ask Manta! XD
 
Mindgame #324: Hold G and press 2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2 then when they come in step/grab. Then, change that up with 236:B. Repeat until they send hatemail and call you a fag.*

*Disclaimer: Only to be used on scrubs, it's too pro to use on pro's because their head will probably explode from the ease of execution.
 
i like the people who play like stalkers with mindgames... you know. like they wait until you get up and circle around you until you think they're not gonna do anything and before you make a move they make the move first and your on the ground again ... xD

Stalker Mind Games.
 
The point on limiting options is an excellent one. Hilde's C3 A eviscerates some characters' move lists. Ashura has a similar effect, but is actually risky...
 
Sometimes the mind games are so mental that even if you have advantage you still block. Take for example Sophitia's A+G grab. While you get the impression that the next grab is uninterruptable I believe (I don't really know exactly what the frames are) you can actually interrupt it.

I main Talim and mind-games are a HUGE part of her playstyle. The best one is that I train my opponents to block AS A since it is so unsafe they get a free punishment. Ofcourse naturally I do a AS A+B the next time wich knocks them down. Then a quick 2A+B into the next AS. And contrary to what you may think people still actually try to block low then. I actually got 5 A+B's in a row once.

When the mind-games start to get so strong that not the advanced stuff but actually the basic stuff (BB, easy to read lows) hits you, THEN it becomes exciting and a truly mind-guessing game. I wish there were more moves cancable or atleast delayable in this game.

And yeah I do think that Yomi > technical play (for the ones that don't know: Yomi is the gift to read your opponents moves every single time).
 
Frustrating your opponent can make them predictable. For example, when a player relies on stance-related mixups and you block the same move from the stance two times in a row, or if you break the same throw twice; sometimes their frustration will make them want to setup the mixup again immediately, making it painfully obvious what their next move is.
Always look to frustrate your opponent when playing to win (in any game) and be careful to not get frustrated yourself.

Intimidation is another part of the mind game. It's all about instilling fear into your opponent. My favorite way of doing this is using flashy moves, risky maneuvers, and unnatural movements like repeated G cancels, tapping steps aimlessly at range, and 236236236236. Intimidation makes them unsure of themselves, causing them to hesitate and become easier to train.
 
You can't play mind games in a given situation unless you know what the other person will think/feel in that situation.

Try knowing how it feels to be in their shoes. For every single action you want to take, be aware of how the other person is likely to react... and then decide on the best course of action. But listen. Inside this box, consider only what they will think; likewise, forget everything you think/feel about yourself. Yes, inside this box, you're programmed like a terminator. And, outside the box, hopefully... you are playing from the heart. =D
 
I was going to make a new thread, but I found this one here and my point fits in with this.

Those who know me, know that I'm a player who finds enjoyment in learning to overcome obstacles in competitive gameplay. Whether it's bad character matchups, or just bridging the gap between my level of skill and that of my opponents, problem solving is the main thing that drives me to improve.

Recently, I've been having some problems with a specific opponent. We've played enough times to where we both know each other's playstyle and mindgames, character matchups aside. But for some reason lately it's felt like this guy has suddenly gotten ten times better than me even though I know that isn't necessarily the case.

The point I'd like to address is simply how to overcome someone who seems to be able to read you more than you can read them. It's ultimately this that's causing the win/loss scores to be tipped so heavily in this guy's favor. It's not really a lack of safety or horrible judgment calls on my part as it is him guessing me correctly and narrowing down my options. Now, granted, I CAN beat this guy, but it's the fact that I can't figure out what else there is to learn in order to improve my success rate against him that bothers me the most.

I've been told that it takes time, but time alone simply won't do me any good without understanding how to go about improving my ability to read people. Is it just something that's determined by a special talent someone has been given and therefore unattainable by others?

I dunno how many of you understand what I'm saying, but since this thread was about mindgames I figured I'd see how other people handle this problem. After all, no matter how good you are or how good your character is, this is a huge factor in winning matches. Has anyone else struggled with this kind of thing and figured it out?
 
I don't how exactly you're getting "read," but there are a few things you can do against someone who abuses the 50/50s.

-If you always block when at disadvantage, your opponent may taking advantage of this by starting up a stance roullette, like Sieg's Right side Hold or Yoshi's Dragonfly. If that's the problem, then you may want to consider attacking from disadvantage more to stop them from starting their setups. Otherwise they're going to force you into a situation that they know better than you do.

-If by getting "read" you mean, they always know when you'll get impatient after blocking for a second and counter hit you, just be more patient and you'll stop taking heavy damage from CH.

-Try step guarding at slight disadvantage, done by TAPPING 8 or 2 then holding G. This covers a lot of options.

-Play a character that doesn't rely on 50/50s or one that punishes wrong guesses severely, Like Setsuka, Sophie, Cassandra.

-Mindgame yourself. Switch your guess at the last second. When I land Sophie's B+G, it's perfect 50/50 on whether I choose the 2A or 2B, and when I get so paranoid as to think that my opponent can read my mind, I mash 2A and switch to 2B at the last second of the buffer window as if the guy is watching my controller. Idk, this one probably doesn't work.
 
Thanks for the response Signia. (I was beginning to think this thread was just too far gone.) As for how I'm being read, it's not one specific mixup. In most cases it's my opponent narrowing down the options I have on defense so well that it can often times force me into predictable situations. (Knowing when I'm gonna step/step guard, attack, GI, etc.)

I main Talim, so yes, her tools to handle skilled spacing pressure are rather specific. Whereas characters like Cassandra/Sophitia have moves like B+K (TJ, steps, and is a mid all in one move) or Kilik's Asura Dance to cover multiple bases, Talim may have two or three different moves that cover individual bases. So because of that I have to guess correctly more often than my opponent.

You are absolutely right about the patience thing. I've found that not getting off the ground too quickly or just rolling around to limit their wakeup games (character dependent of course) helps me stay in control of the pace of a match and not fall into risky situations.

I have fought opponents though who just seem to know what move I'll do even at advantage. Even if I decide to switch up my decision out of paranoia, they just somehow knew I'd switch it up and block it/counter it. This doesn't always happen however, so your point about mindgaming yourself does work to an extent. Everyone I play on a regular basis seems to think I'm very unpredictable, but sometimes I can't help feeling like maybe I'm more predictable than they let on.
 
i think it comes down to reading attack patterns, both your own, and your opponents.
like, for example, not just if you´re put in a 50/50 situation, where you have to guess right.
but in an even bigger picture.
more like three, four steps ahead before you even come to that 50/50 situation.
what attack patterns did he use to put you in that specific situation?
i think everyone uses attack patterns in some way, they might be hard to figure out tho.
not sure how to practice pattern reading, i think it´s just getting exposed to different kinds as much as possible,
and learn how to counter them.
 
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