Mitsu General Discussion / Q&A

Mitsurugi: General Discussion

Syr: I just realized you were up against some of the best players in the states on this tournament you went to. Discouraging as it might be, it is yet a great opportunity to learn, you are lucky to have such a players around, you'll probably become good in no time.
 
Tournament Prep.

Hello All, I am pretty new to this site and have just been reading posts to improve my mitsu game. Mitsu has been my main since SCII and I haven't wanted to change my main since. My friends and I want to start going to tournaments and I just wanted to get any advice I can (what to practice/improve on to prepare myself mentally/tactics). My other two friends respectively play a decent Ivy and Siegfried game. We are all about the same level so it is always good practice. I really don't like playing SC IV online because of the lag issues. I like duking it out one on one and the intense competition when u play someone really good with everything on the line =D Any advice would be appreciated Thanks.
 
Tournament Prep.

A good stuff to read is Sirlin's book, I hope somebody posts a link here, b/c I cant remember exactly how it's called. An "Art of War" is also, generally, a staple for playing a competetive games.
And I recently posted something exactly on that purpose on Caliburforum.com, here's a quick copy-paste:

Disclaimer:
I dont know if it would be considered a "theory" topic, or would have any practical use. As any "advanced" theory there are usually only two types of people. Those who have already put it into use, and those who do not believe in it. I've been having a lot of time to think during my vacation while practicing for a tournament this weekend, and cannot help but post my thoughts for your discussion. I've written alot of system along with math and psychological improvement guides of the game in russian, but this is my first to be in english and first to sum a lot of things up. Despite the goal - I'll try to be brief.

Intro:
There are a lot of players, who know all the movesets and counters, who can exectute the hardest moves and setups flawlessly and yet lose to far technically inferior players. I've been observing this situation many times, and I've been subject to it a few times even. That brings the simple question : what is that, which defines a good player.

Well, that's kinda easy to answer: since the goal of the fighting game is to win over the other player, then a good player is the one who can win over the most other players.

This will require two things, technical imrpovement and mental improvement. I will cover different aproaches to those right now.

Before I say anything else - practice is superior to everything else, no matter how good you are at analysis, unless you turn your thoughts into reality with playing hours - they are worth nothing. No matter how good something looks on paper unless its proven in a real battle. There are also types of people who think they are the shit just b/c they know theory, they are also the people who normally can't place in any torunament. Dont fall into this trap of self-created theory-fighting-univers, dont mix up reality and theory.

Chapter 1 : Creating a pattern
I didnt want to cover this at first (since its the very basics) but actually a lot of those considered a top players can imrpove their games a bit in those aspects too, anyway, if you're a good player go to chapter 3 at once.
Technical(move) patterns is something that is most important thing in a tournament, since it will net you as much "free" wins as nothing else. Creating a good pattern is the first step to winning a tournament. Doing that is fairly easy, every move has to fit in some role. basically you will need the following categories:
1) interrupts
2) Mix ups
3) Poke
4) Spacing control
5) punishment
6) wake up
7) Ro

The prequisites are as follows:
1) interrupt should always be your fastest move. AA is a basic example.

2) One part of a mix up should always be safe. BB/Throw is a basic example.

3) Pokes are something to keep your opponent from forcing a mixup on you, It should either have both some range and deal a lot of damage on counterhit or be extremely safe on wiff (and block). A single A or B is normally what you do.

4) This is to stop opponents in the place to force your mixups upon him. any ranged launchers paired with step killers should be fine. The examples wary between characters, main prequisite being safety of either part.

5) For punishment pick something that's already on the list, (since it will be easier to apply in a heat of battle.) but is easy to do from step, or backdash, the more range/damage the better, just make sure you dont hesitate to use it.

6) Understanding moves that hit grounded is crucial, a lot of players lack this, you shouldn't normally find yourself in a situation running around a downed opponents waiting for them to get up, so you could throw them.

7) Since RO = win, adjusting your strategy according to the edge/walls might be a good idea, even unsafe options work well here since the reward is absolute.

Now once you're done you can start with the most important part, thinking over how do you follow everything up. For example BB hit into 2A blocked into GI is an example of the most basic pattern. Figure out whatever options follow up which but try not to use options you'll never use otherwise since they're only, say, uninterruptible in one particular case. For post GI's you may stick to throws at first, better use the most damaging option post GI (3B for most characters) and mix up with something that beats re-GI - slow damaging and safe (it is important) option. If you use a throw as a primary mix up figure out what wakeups do you get after the throw. If your sidethrows are strong, use them as punishment from side step, and also find a ways to follow it up. Another thing to look for is that a BB normally hits ducking opponent thus, further option is hard to step, but, some characters have extremely powerful options from FC.

Chapter 2: Analysing move patterns
This is something that defines a mediocre player from a good player and is another basic thing. You should pay particular attention to the overall picture of your opponent game. What moves does he use to start the round, which mixups does he use. Another imprortant and easy aspect of this is to analyze which moves do hit your opponent, which moves he is unfamiliar with. This is something that is only achievable through a lot of practice. keep in mind, however, that dominating a weak player by a stronger pattern is easy, but it is much harder to learn and adapt to his move pattern and beat him in that. Thus even if you're head and shoulders above everybody else you can still learn from weaker players even if they can't overcome teh deadly frame trap. This is really going to help you a lot later on.

Chapter 3: Analysing mental patterns
This is something much more complicated, and the first step to it is understanding, that if , say player 1 uses BB, BB and then a throw, he will most likely not break it even if you guess his second BB (thus his next action will most likely be another throw), there are different examples for different people, but they have a lot of common. If you interrupt generally uninterrupible set up, some people will try to set it up again, if a person fails to perform an atack or do a GI too early he will most likely try to repeat it for the next atack. One of the basic examples is, say, if you follow a sucessful GI up with BB(not launcher), their next action will most likely be GI. You have to learn now not the picture of the moves, but of the game itself. Which of your actions influence opponent, which trigger any specific move pattern, does he always go for a higher damage option or set up the RO, when he is low on life or red soul gauge, or maybe if you endanger his gauge will he try to break yours.
Figure out the proportions in which he mix ups. Many people who have extremely complicated move patterns posess fairly easy to read though patterns, they will say do 2 mid atacks followed up by 1 low atack, independant on success of those.
Some players can atack extremely well, but are extremely predictable when knocked/rushed down. Many players who only pay attention to your move pattern will be subject to the latter the most basic reaction after being knocked down 2 times is trying to interrupt the next wake up.
Another example of mental pattern may be reaction to continued pressure. Some players do atack right away after continuous blocking, but other try to set up a favorable mix up (Yoshi dragonfly is a great example) so you may have to consider atacking again even after huge blockstun, which is normally stupid. Once again, doing something stupid might trigger your opponents reckless desire to punish you for your careless play, thats where another chance lies.

Chapter 4: Playing by math
At some point of the game, you may start to believe, that mindgames do not solve the problem, since you cannot rely on always guessing correct. while that is not true, there are other ways of improvements that are supplementary or superiour to the above which lie around the mathemathical approach to the game. To apply this you will need extremely good execution and feel of the game. First step to it is substituting less damaging options with more damaging depending on situation, since now you are able to pick an option at will, you will need a system to determine the most favorable. While many of those are easy to calculate, some situations may be complicated or unobvious, depending on your opponents move set. Basically you can create an equations for any problematic situation to figure out a set of most favorable options independant of whatever actions your opponent may try. There are a much larger theory covering this on russian forum, I will only translate a bit of it (warning: dont read this if you're not keen on mathematics, it'll blow your mind)

Let us assume we have 3 options in situation namely A,B,C and opponent has 3 as well namely a,b,c
Lets see all possible outcomes and damage dealt as a result
Aa =1, Ab=3, Ac=5, Ba=5, Bb=2, Bc=3, Ca=4, Cb=6, Cc=2
This is wrote down as a matrix
~ a b c
A 1 3 5
B 5 2 3
C 4 6 2

Normally you will get a negative numbers as well, due to the damage dealt to you

One of the most important aspect of fighting games is using frame advantage. At almost any moment of the game either you or your opponent have an advantage, thus using it the most effective way is a key to victory. Lets take a look at the above situation from that perspective.
Since whatver we do the outcome is always positive numberm we have a clear advantage, to determint the most effective sequence between A,B and C lets solve an equation system:
1*PA+5*PB+4*PC=Pr
3*PA+2*PB+6*PC=Pr
5*PA+3*PB+2*PC=Pr
PA+PB+PC=1
whereas PA,PB и PC = percantage in which it is optimal using A,B and C and Pr is an average damage anticipation in this game situation
By solving the equations Pr=3,52 PA=0,35 PB=0,41 PC=0,24.

While the latter theory is extremely difficult to apply and mostly esotheric, you can still figure out a lot of by doing a simple table like this (this is for SC2 X vs Yoshi after 1AAA hit i think)

~ a b c d e f
A 80 80 -15 -50 -30 0
B 80 -30 -15 -50 80 0
C -60-30 -15 50 -30 -30
D -60 70 0 -50 70 0
E 0 -30 0 0 -30 0
F 25 -30 25 -50 25 -60

The situation where opp is advantaged. And if we try the above theory we will most certainly be at an disadvantage, thats totally not ok with us. Observing your opponent you figured out that he uses all of his actions in equal proportions, then we will use Laplas criteria to win. Basically it is simply summing up every result and the higher number is the most favorable
A) 80+80-15-50-30+0=65
B) 80-30-15-50+80+0=65
C)-60-30-15+50-30-30=-115
D)-60+70+0-50+70+0=30
E) 0-30+0+0-30+0=-60
F) 25-30+25-50+25-60=-65

If the opponent uses his options equally, the priorities for our actions are as follows
1)A, B (2_8B I think)
2)D
3)E
4)F
5)C (AAB i think)
But lets assume an opp is using option d (rcc 1AAA) in 50% since he believes it to be the best option and the others in 10%
then we need to change our matrix to the following
~ a b c d e f
A 48 48 -9 -150 -18 0
B 48 -18 -9 -150 48 0
C -36 -18 -9 150 -18 -18
D -36 42 0 -150 42 0
E 0 -18 0 0 -18 0
F 15 -18 15 -150 15 -36
to do that you need to multiply every element of matrix on a number of columns and probability of opp using corresponding option, example : Аа=80*6*0.1=48, или Bd=-50*6*0.5=150

Doing analysis again.
А)48+48-9-150-18+0=-81
B)48-18-9-150+48+0=-81
C)-36-18-9+150-18-18=51
D)-36+42+0-150+42+0=-102
E)0-18+0+0-18+0=-36
F)15-18+15-150+15-36=-159

Priorities change:
1)С
2)E
3)А,В
4)D
5)F

Certainly this has limited uses and should be used mostly suplementary to the psychology, but this is a good start to figuring out the most favorable mix ups and options for problematic game situations.
 
Tournament Prep.

Wow Belial, that's an awesome job you got putting all that info and stuff together. I'd like to stress that's one way to go about doing things :)

As for the whole tournament prep thing, you should go to one first, see how you fare. Go in with an open mind but even more than just participating in the tournament, get to know people and get some casual games in. Playing in your first tourney will help you get the feel for the environment, but it should not be any sort of place for training. I realize I made this error and totally threw my gameplan out the door because I wasn't very confident. Getting the casuals in though will really help you with practicing and getting used to strong competition, and even more your actual execution.

I'm kinda talking out of my ass because I've only been to one tourney so far, but I met a lot of good players and got those games in to help make the overall experience better, despite me never winning a round in the actual tourney :)
 
Mitsurugi: General Discussion

What are you guys using as generic advances against a retreating opponent? I keep falling into a habit of doing unsafe crap like 66BB and 66K and it's driving me nuts. I'm also struggling to retool my game and come up with a better poke. I tried messing around with 3K 'cause of safety purposes but it doesn't seem to give enough of a reward when it does hit. I try doing the same with 3A but getting in seems to get me hurt me more often than give me CH 3A. Maybe using 6A would be better?
 
Mitsurugi: General Discussion

Poking and punishing with Mitsu is my biggest weakness.

With poking, I sometime find myself using 6B and expecting his old mid stab to come out. I generally stick with 2A or GI at close range and hope with the best. At mid range, I do alot of counter hit fishing with B6

On the punishing end, I use BB, 3B, and 2KB, but they don't have the greatest range, which is sad vs character I'm trying to get close to, like Sieg, Ivy and Kilik.
 
Mitsurugi: General Discussion

most of the time its depending on opponent and if he can punish your stuff.
basic are

66B_66BB
pros: TC. good range, decent damage
cons: stepable. unsafe

1A
pros: good range, leads to tech traps, TC, not stepable
cons: slow (blockable on reaction), unsafe

Those two are primary used if opponent is using high atacks to keep you at range. 1A TC's better, but is a bit more dangerous to use. however some characters cannot punish 1A strongly or at all (Astaroth).

k:B
pros: deceptively good range, good damage, leads to wakeups
cons: unsafe, linear.

it's main purpose is to stop opponent from keeping you away with series of long ranged pokes, 66B will also work, but this is less unsafe and gives wakeups. the damage is about same.

b6
pros: good range, good damage on CH, safe
cons: linear, high, disadvantage on hit.

b6 is rather situational poke, but a good way to catch backdashing opponents. Feel free to experiment with it.

4A
pros: good range, safe, tracks
cons: high, low damage,
4A best options come from MST transition making MST 6B uninterruptible on hit, but going into MST makes this relatively unsafe on block. Its main purpose is stopping an opponent from stepping, but as any high it is not as good against advancing opponent due to low reward on hit, vs risk of highcrush move.

b:A
pros: very good range, tracks a little, decent damage, mid
cons: semi-unsafe

This is one of the best ranged tools mitsu has, however applications are limited due to unsafety. It is one of the best wiff punishers he has now, and is very good against advancing opponent. You can substitute damage for wakeups doing bA

22_88B
pros: safe, decent range, leads to tech traps, mid, tracks a little, built in side step
cons: will ocasionally wiff, steppable to your right (both)

Sidestep on this is rather bad, and it sometimes goes right through opponent, however it has some uses, if you can chose the right range for it.

66A+B_66A+B~G
pros: best range, good damage, safe
cons: slow, linear

This is too slow to set up normally, and mostly used as a mix up on wakeup, but due to the huge range, this is a threat to careless opponent and will not let him feel safe at any distance.

11BA
pros: TC, mid, second hit tracks
cons: semi-unsafe (second hit high), neutral on hit, deceptively low range, damage is not that good.

I never found this useful, but see this used a lot by other players, its primary use is defensive, since its easiest to use TC from sidestep denying your opponent high atacks as a way to stop your 8wr.

22_88A+K
pros: decent position on block, tracks, good adv on hit, best mitsu range
cons: slow (duckable on reaction), low damage

This only works against unexperienced opponents, and even when it does it's nothing spectacular on hit or CH, however if you find it troublesome to get in, try this.

4K_4KB
pros: leads to wakeups, decent damage.
cons: not safe, linear
its use if similiar to k:B but less range and is two hits, if you stop after the first you may get a chance to interrupt next opponent's action.

33_99B
pros: TC's a bit, good range, decent gauge damage
cons: unsafe, slow (blockable on reaction), linear

I perosnally never use this.

6B+K (MST)
pros: very good TC, covers a lot of ground, tracks
cons: slow, doesnt deal damage by itself.

MST crouches all high and horizontal mid atacks, subsequent dashes (66) will advance very fast, align you towards an opponent and have TC properties.
 
Mitsurugi: General Discussion

I'm still having trouble doing the just frame B:A....I've never been able to pull it off. How do you do the timing for this?
 
Mitsurugi: General Discussion

I can do it pretty easily on a pad, but when I use my hori stick, it never comes out. I think maybe the buttons are too mushy or I just suck.
 
Mitsu vs the world or?

I've been a Mitsu player since SC, SC2, and the little bit of 3 that I played. I love the guy and my kind of mind fits him very well. I'm at war with myself trying to decide if i should just keep focusing exclusively on him or if I should develop him alongside 1 or 2 other characters so that I have 2 or 3 main characters. I guess the best way to ask this question is by asking what you guys are doing with him along these lines. When I see someone pick Cervy or Raph for instance, I find myself wishing I had another character developed to counter them better. So for all you tournament Mitsus out there, do you guys play Mitsu vs the world or will you play Mitsu until a bad matchup comes along and you counter pick them? I know the obvious tradeoff is that the more I work on another character, the more my Mitsu is not getting trained. I'm just trying to get it figured out so I can train accordingly. I've kind of gotten sidetracked by developing Seong Mi-Na who I'm thinking of canning now. I get excited about a character and learn them and study up and then ditch em and go back to Mitsu it seems. At least I learn more of the Roster in the process but I dont want to waste time anymore and I'd like to just buckle down and pick something and stay with it. I really cant think of a single character in this game who doesnt have a bad matchup so I dont know what to do.

So yeah, you guys do mitsu vs the world or have a few chacters? If you have other characters, who are they? I'm curious what other Mitsu minds like playing. If you only play mitsu but HAD to pick 3 guys vs the world. Who would they be and why? Wondering what you guys think. So far i'm leaning on either going Mitsu vs all or having like a Mitsu, Seong Mina, X/taki lineup to have all my bases covered but I would really like you guys's input.
 
Mitsu vs the world or?

It's a matter of preference. Some people will claim that counter-picks and playing the matchup are the best way to achieve victory, others will say that learning to compensate for your own chara's weakness will be the best way to go. This has been an argument since the ST days. It really depends on you.

I've been the same with Mitsu, always going back to him at some point but I've been looking more and more for someone else to play. He gets kinda boring to me for a while, I dunno. At one point I tried to do the same as you as well, by picking 1 charas for each range (short/mid/long) but I realized that I was really uncomfortable up close. After getting into the scene though I've loosened up a lot and now I'm just playing whoever I find fun (in this case, Maxi).

Uh... somehow I don't know if that answered your question. So, in short, I'll just say that it depends on my mood.
 
Mitsu vs the world or?

If your purpose is to play for fun stick to few characters you like.
If you want to be a pro your goal is to play all characters with no exceptions, it's not necessary you play them all at a good level, but without knowing everything about every char inside out you wont be able to compete at a high level.

as for the actual question - Mitsu doesnt have sepcific matchup weakneses so theres no real need for back up character
 
Mitsu vs the world or?

Hell yeah, thank you both. You helped me make up my mind. I'm gonna Mitsu vs. the world and just casually play other characters just to learn how to slice them with Mitsu better. It wasnt that Mitsu got old to me. Slashing guys a new asshole like a samarai on crystal meth is hours of fun for the whole family in my opinion and never gets old, haha. I just wanted to play more seriously and keep going to tournies, and I wasnt sure if i wanted to bring mitsu there exclusively. I went to a tourney recently and it was awesome. It gave me that old arcade feeling like back in the day when people were all huddled around Mortal Kombat going 'ooooo' when someone owned someones face.

Both your info helped. I am leaning on that "learning to compensate for your own characters' weakness will be the best way to go" part of what you said, Syrpiektre. I think that is true unless you pick a horrible character, which mitsu is definatelly not.

And "Mitsu doesnt have sepcific matchup weakneses so theres no real need for back up character " makes me all warm and fuzzy all over.

Thanks to you both again.
 
Mitsu vs the world or?

I struggled with the same thing with Taki. I've used Taki since Soul Blade. What I thought was I would keep Taki as my main since she is from the Original series and work with another character that came in the next series like Nightmare or Cassandra. It's a matter of preference.

Just make sure that by training with your new character, that you don't get worse or less experienced with your main.
 
Mitsu vs the world or?

My problem with using multiple characters is remembering certain moves. This isn't so bad with Mitsurugi, but it can be an issue with Ivy, Voldo and Siegfried.
 
Mitsu vs the world or?

Definently learn his stances first, then train yourself in other characters.
 
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