Mitsu General Discussion / Q&A

Different range mostly. 22_88B is invaluable against some characters like Ivy or Kilik who try to keep you from getting in. Especially since 22B hitbox is better than 88B's and both Ivy and Kilik are better to step to the right.
 
22_88A leaves you with combo options with the guaranteed of more damage.
22_88B uses... The RLC A tech trap is the only one I can think of.
 
22B is actually useful. Its true.

As for tech traps check the corresponding thread. The one not mentioned, I think, is delayed 3B which supposedly tech catch all.
 
22B is good against SW stance too -forces crouch and pushes back. Any move that forces crouch and pushes back rapes SW.
 
If you don't want her in SW stance you can use moves like 22B to discourage it, because she doesn't really have any options afterward that will cover step and reach you if you decide to step. She has to switch to CL to attack with something like 66A(high), etc.
 
How worth is it to do BT B+K, 63214B as opposed to guaranteed damage? El_Mitsu tried pulling it off against Omega, didnt work but I have used it and it seemed to be a good trap, almost guaranteed at some ranges, specially if you use if sparingly.
 
senzait said:
Oh ok, and would it be a good option if a sophie is spamming BB's for example?
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not really, generally, aside from guaranteed red aGI its not worth it. 28 damage somewhat pale in comparision to normal post-GI options.

senzait said:
How worth is it to do BT B+K, 63214B as opposed to guaranteed damage? El_Mitsu tried pulling it off against Omega, didnt work but I have used it and it seemed to be a good trap, almost guaranteed at some ranges, specially if you use if sparingly.
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44B techtraps are not worth it overall. I'd use Keysona as a reference for good application of this. He really has some interesting set-ups. Still, once people know mitsu better that is more risky than profitable. Even more so since 44B MST 66BB - second hit never connects.
Specifically I love keysona setups after RLC A into 44B. b/c here people do not expect to be so ... bluntly reset otg, so their instinctive reaction is to get up, and thats how he gets so much 44B~66MST6B tech traps off.
So true setup is not 44B but MST 6B tech trap -> full sequence is something like
RLC A, 44B~66~MST 6B(relaunch+combo)
Anywhere, where a person is staying otg to escape extra damage from tech traps - 44B triggers opposite reaction (get up immediately).

PS: Timing on MST 6B against right tech is somewhat... tricky, especially on smaller characters. so I gave it up long ago. If you can master this, however, this is worth looking into probably.
 
I am having trouble vs my friend, a strong X player. He went to Cannes this year and I am having trouble beating him since. Another friend observed when we were playing that every time I got him into a wake up situation he would simply roll and eat whatever damage, or use cry baby to interrupt my force blocks and knock me out of mist and relic. I want to know if there is anyway to adjust my game to compensate. Is it possible to punish crybaby on block or even hit and what should I use? Would 44B force him to stand up? It seems a little bit too slow. I also feel like X has a good set of tools to deal with mitsu in general. Her speed up close makes it difficult for me to control the fight and she can interrupt my 2KB 3B mix up. I end up in a poking battle that is doomed to failure from the start. Mitsu's back step 4B, usually a good option in these circumstances, only manages to make me vulnerable to a WR 3B launcher, and unless I hit a lucky counter the move leaves me at a disadvantage on hit, back in poking range where I started, so it feels as though the risk reward becomes unfavorable. At mid range again I find it hard to know what to use, B6 and 4B are both fast options but high. The deceiving range and re-alignment /tracking properties on her WR 3B for instance, make me feel unable to step in with mist, and reluctant to try a 66A+B fearing her auto steps and not wanting to G cancel into her dominant poke game. It may just be me but Mitsu always feels lacking in a fast mid range mid. 66A never seems to have enough speed to keep my opponent from ducking and stepping. I am fully aware that my friend is a very strong player, but I am just as aware of my own lack of confidence vs X and what options I should be using and what I should be dropping against her.

So to summarize could someone please help me with:
how to force her to play wake up and deal with cry baby.
What moves to use at what ranges.
What situations to look for and how to avoid being baited into auto step.
ANY anti X advice for Mitsu

Thanks
 
Zaigonen said:
how to force her to play wake up and deal with cry baby.
What moves to use at what ranges.
What situations to look for and how to avoid being baited into auto step.
ANY anti X advice for Mitsu

Thanks
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When you block crybaby the best you can get is 66B but its kinda hard to buffer and only 18 dmg. The easy option is FC 2B which is 14 dmg.
On hit I think you can try 1K but that sucks if it doesnt CH.
You should play a little X yourself to get familiar to how crybaby works. For example position when she can crybaby is different, face down, leg forward she cannot crybaby at all, A+B result in get up BT move. After many mitsurugi moves she cannot crybaby. Most notable b:A, 2KB-66K juggle, 3B-44AA juggle.
Also remember that crybaby doenst hit you if you're aligned sideways towards her body otg. So if you step deep or she is downed sideways, crybaby wont hurt you.
But she can still mess with your wakeup after CH 3A and 1B enders (RLC B 1A, 3B 236B,1A) , if you're sure she's going to cry) you can 44B, but thats a bit risky. another option is to sidewalk and 22B when you see her cry. Check for yourself what works for you best. I dont think wakeup off 1A enders or 66A+B enders are very good to begin with, so if she wants to try and stop you - I think it makes wakeup options a bit better actually with chance to punish her crybaby attemtps. I heard someone said FMD unblockable works, but I never tested that. Will let you know when I test.

X cant punish most of you best moves , or punishes very poorly, so b:A comes to mind naturally as a very good tool to contain her. 1A is also decent, RLC B too and as usual use b6, 4A and whatever you need.
But her 2_8*B is really annoying especially agains RLC, which he evades completely at range and this move has huuuge hitbox, that launches you even when you think it wont. So general advice here is bait it with b6, when you do, punish with b:A. Relic definitely needs to be used carefully at range against X, since even if 2_8*B wiffs you hardly will punish it with RLC.

X is naturally a pitbull, with a lot of low damage moves that setup other moves and one of the best evasion in the game she can really eat your lifebar away in no time. It will be difficult to cover all stuff here, so I will give you some general tips.

When you're being pressured by fast moves (2K etc) its a good option to sidestep to your left and duck instantly, this way most her mids will wiff, and you can punish 2K (with 2A... but still) and have time to react to 44B with GI.

When you think she's going to use any of her evasion - 1B+K, 44B, 2_8*B, use 4B~MST,
if she uses 2_8*B or 44B you get a free MST 6B~RLC combo, if she use 1B+K you get MST 6BB for ~50 dmg. Or if you're lazy to detect what evade she used, just use MST 6BB all the time.
Some of the basic and most used evasion setups on block are : BB, 8B, 66K, FC 3B and AA and 2K on hit.
Look out for after 3AK(-2) and WS K(pushes back) she will often try to interrupt with AAB, however she can try this anytime so try not to get hit too much.

Dont get hit by "crap moves" like 1A and 3AK, first is blockable on reaction and 3AK second move is high.
Also dont get hit by 6K block -> 6K near edge of the rings, 6K is small minus on guard (-3 or so) so alot of X just try spam it hoping for RO. Also dont use unsafe moves back to ring edge b/c of 6K.

Try playing X a bit and learn her transitions to stance and how to use it, then learn to counter that.

Some of her most often used moves can be GI'ed on reaction , most notable are 4A+B second hit, 6A+B second hit, 1kA 3rd hit.

Hope that helps.
 
Belial said:
Hope that helps.
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Cheers Belial mate that really does. I will start training it all and take your advice and learn some X. I think I owe it to Hyrul and the community to challenge him at the next Tournament.

Belial said:
I dont think wakeup off 1A enders or 66A+B enders are very good to begin with, so if she wants to try and stop you - I think it makes wakeup options a bit better actually with chance to punish her crybaby attemtps.
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What would you say gives the best wake up options?


I am full of questions I know but I really appreciate the help. Heres a load more:

After 2KB I see you get 66K then 11K a lot. I love this wake up set up but a friend of mine has started getting out of the 11K. Is this not guaranteed, just an input error on my part or is there a mix up after 66k to stop them air controlling that I'm not aware of?

Under what circumstances does BT B+K combo with 11BA? I thought it was when they were hit while BT as-well but I'm not sure.

I was also wondering if there were any real applications for G+K BT B+K? For example: after being hit by Mitsu's 33B your left face down feet towards. How many frames does it take to get from OTG to BT B+K? I guess what Im asking is, has a study already been done on this? If not I will do some testing and look into its usefulness.

I have some trouble with getting interrupted by X when trying to do 2KB 3B mix up. When fighting Synraii's Siegfried last I was trying to Crouch Recover Cancel (not sure of the notation) after 2A on hit so I could have enough advantage to 2KB safely and create the fear of mix up and be able to create a mix up after anything, maybe fish for more WR1B. what moves on hit are best to force a mix up situation either with 2KB or a relic/ mist transition? I noticed El Mitsu transitioning into Relic from standing alot when he was at advantage.

If you have time, I also need help with:

Mix up
My understanding of Mitsu's mix up game has grown a lot lately and I have begun trying to look more deeply into the way I play. I realized that a lot of the time I spot myself playing in patterns without making real decisions and just doing whatever felt natural. This was a big problem, getting me automatically going for a 2KB ring out against Siegfried when his 1B punish wins him the game. This gamble can only really be an option if they have a significant health advantage, but I wasn't recognizing the risk reward ratio and making a conscious decision I was just blindly giving rounds away that might have otherwise been a perfect. I have managed to get past that particular idiot pattern but there are still only certain situations, most of the time, where I feel comfortable to assert my mix up i.e after BB / WRB (on hit) etc. I also tend to answer unsafe but unpunishable attacks on my guard with mix up. People recognize these situations which forces them to choose and creates an opportunity to condition and trick them, if this pays off the reward is huge not just in damage but also in the opponents mind set when they feel you are inside their head reading them like a book.
My questions are:
Should I try to create a recognizable mix up situation and hope it pays off and I guess right? or will this stop me from becoming unpredictable?
Is it sometimes a good idea to use 2KB at every available situation in range for the first round and then switch the next? [Mostly when I play with people in our community who can challenge me we keep up ongoing mind games within the rounds, but it differs from person to person]
How do high level players fight? Do they play with all factors of a situation in mind or just by feeling through experience?
How can I advance my mix up tactics?
Do I have a full understanding?

Wake up
After your post on wake up and force guards Belial, I started seeing it everywhere. It has lead me to realize that lots of the strings I had been emulating from good players were wakeup and just how strong Mitsu's is. After working on it I wanted to ask a few questions. is giving away free damage in favor of a strong wake up situation and continuing pressure a good idea? The reason I ask is that some combos end in good wake up and others without, like you said about 1A enders, but by missing the last hit and transitioning to a stance it allows for continued control and aggression through wake up. Any tech trap when you know your opponent is going to lay there and eat minimal damage and end your wake up games seems an opportunity for mix up. For example, after 3B, 236B instead of 1A a 11K. At the right range the foot hits and they wont tech because of the fear of 1A.
So my question is:
Is it ever a good option to give away free damage to extend wakeup and create high damage opportunity?

P.S cheers for the 11K, unblockable wake up Belial. Don't get rollers anymore :P
 
Zaigonen said:
1) What would you say gives the best wake up options?

2) After 2KB I see you get 66K then 11K a lot. I love this wake up set up but a friend of mine has started getting out of the 11K. Is this not guaranteed, just an input error on my part or is there a mix up after 66k to stop them air controlling that I'm not aware of?

3) Under what circumstances does BT B+K combo with 11BA? I thought it was when they were hit while BT as-well but I'm not sure.

4) I was also wondering if there were any real applications for G+K BT B+K? For example

5) I have some trouble with getting interrupted by X when trying to do 2KB 3B mix up. When fighting Synraii's Siegfried last I was trying to Crouch Recover Cancel (not sure of the notation) after 2A on hit so I could have enough advantage to 2KB safely and create the fear of mix up and be able to create a mix up after anything, maybe fish for more WR1B. what moves on hit are best to force a mix up situation either with 2KB or a relic/ mist transition? I noticed El Mitsu transitioning into Relic from standing alot when he was at advantage.

6) Mix up
[Mostly when I play with people in our community who can challenge me we keep up ongoing mind games within the rounds, but it differs from person to person]
How do high level players fight? Do they play with all factors of a situation in mind or just by feeling through experience?
How can I advance my mix up tactics?
Do I have a full understanding?

7) Wake up
Is it ever a good option to give away free damage to extend wakeup and create high damage opportunity?
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Whoa, thats a wall of text....

I numbered questions in quotation to make it easier to answer.
So ...

1) I think 2KB gives a great wakeup if they dont tech.
Right or Back throw gives great wakeup - with 1B being a forced block.
66B gives 2A+B as a forced block which is just awesome.
FC 1B wakeups are one of the best you can get, usually, FC 1BB into 11K cant be rolled, only blocked, if you think they'd try to block that, just finish FC 1BB - it will be guaranteed. It is also a cool option to 66A+B~G which grants BT mixup on rollers.
Very nice wakeups after k:B on hit, 22B is force block and MST mixup is uninterruptible if they get up.
MST A-throw is good, b/c short dash ~ 6B+K MST mixup must be blocked/guessed.
Other wakeups are not as spectacular. I think 4K is okay, 3B 44AA is okay too. Just review my vids for better idea of this.

2) You can somewhat see whats going on after 2KB 66K. So you can 11K right away , or dash in 11K which pretty much hits anything. If you see they're floating behind you - just use BT mixup. Actually this way you can get a guaranteed 2KB 66K BT B+K combo if you're sure they're going to AC this way. I dont know if its possible to detect this fast enough to get combo off

3) It depends on the angle it hits your opponent. You should be able to notice it by the way they are stunned or just by knowing the situation. Re-watch skill-project 2011 to get a better idea of how it looks like.

4) its not K+G its just G :) I guess you're asking b/c of BT B+K, since normal BT moves come out just fine otg. To get up you need to wait until ukemi window is over and your character is fully otg. This is hard since if you press it too early it gets unpredictable results which are never BT B+K and if you press it too late it hardly will interrupt anything. So the key is - catching earliest possible frame to input G (I press 4G usually its a habbit, but i think normal G works just as well) and then B+K.

5) For 2KB I think its use is greatly influenced by how punishable it is compared to normal throw. Against some characters its really better to not use 2KB at all. Against others it make little difference.
However 2KB is only really good/decent when opponent cannot step. Cervantes is a very good character to unleash power of 2KB on him, since almost every move he has leave you at both range and adv enough to 2KB even when it looks like it doesnt (2KB hits him REALLY far, due to his leg position/stance). Overall it depends on the character - how well can he step and at which frames.
But If you just move around a bit (i.e. dash 2KB, step 2KB) it really makes it harder to step so you can set your mixups this way. Of course a simple run at - 2KB is also harder to step then any preset situation.
I recomend using BB instead of 3B as a mixup, since 3B is punishable.
MST and RLC I guess you can try basically anywhere and get a feedback from there. Since both stances has somewhat evasion its not a bad idea to try it once in a while. It'd take too much time to write all the stance strats and Im getting lazy by now.

6) I'm going to make a video about mixup theory soon (next month probably), so I'll get most of that covered there.

7) Well, to my knowledge, there is NO way for mitsurugi to force a get up from opponents except those described in (1). If you can force them to get up - resetting a mixup is always good. But generally if they stay otg you get nerfed damage, bad position for next wakeup and less damage, when you subsitute your guarantees for some kind of setup.
One of the other setups not listed on (1) are 3B 236(B) - i use dash k:B if they stay OTG, and should they roll - A+K is a tech trap.
And 22B - 66B/4B+K~RLC are tech catches after this move. If they like to tech your 66B you can chose not to risk a tech trap of RLC A since its punishable, and just stay in RLC instead, this way - 66B provokes a right tech (get up) and you're in relic ready to unleash hell.

Hope that helps.
 
FC 1B wakeups are one of the best you can get, usually, FC 1BB into 11K cant be rolled, only blocked
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A small typo in previous post - FC 1B into 11K not FC 1BB.

Also I tested that stuff with X - FMD doesnt work sadly.
You can interrupt her crybaby attempts both on CH and NH by 2B , which is also a punishment on block (FC 2B). But when you use 1A or 66A+B or RLC and get hit out of it you often end up BT where nothing can interrupt her next craybaby (BT 2B will wiff most of the time). You have to be aware of this if you go for any of those moves.
Just a side note - Kayane's favorite thing after being KD is to get up 2_8*B - you might want to check how to counter that too (1A works best for me).
 
Belial said:
Whoa, thats a wall of text....

I numbered questions in quotation to make it easier to answer.
So ...

Hope that helps.
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Incredible stuff. That really has helped, thank you very much for your patience and for answering everything even when it came in a jumbled wall of text. I got a little carried away and maybe a little bit lost when it came to asking the actual questions :P
It's gonna take a while to let all that information sink in and I have got plenty to train now so I think I will give you a breather before I push my luck. I will try to structure my questions a little less like an essay chapter in future.

Anticipating your video on mix up theory. I remember a post of yours a long while back in the Calibur Forum talking about using maths charts to calculate mix up. It was a long time ago so my understanding of the game was next to nothing but I remember being impressed at the high level gobbledygook as it seemed at the time. I wanted to go back and save it but couldn't find it when the forum was being closed. I don't know if your video is going to be covering that, and I wont ask because I promised no more questions for a while but I'm looking forward to it either way.

Thanks again for your help mate, very much appreciated
Peace
 
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