Natsu match-up and anti-character general discussion thread

devil's advocate time: B[K] is a decent tech trap on opponents who side ukemi.

have given 22A more test time and it's a very decent move for all the reasons mentioned. i think the only thing is that CH 22A A:6 only works close range, and CH 22A AAB_KK2K doesn't land at max range. so 22B is still useful at certain ranges.
 
Nightmare

NSS on block
I am pretty certain every move that transitions to NSS can be punished by 66B on block. The only exception I've found so far is 44(B) NSS A+B which trades with 66B. It's still a good trade in Natsu's favor though, as she takes far less damage than Nightmare.

I haven't tested all of it vs 6A+B, but the TC frames on 6A+B seem much worse than 66B, resulting in 6A+B losing in some situations. 66B seems to work because all the really fast options out of NSS are high and 66B avoids them all.
 
That's nice.
We already have a punishment discussion thread, but i was thinking about turning it into an anti-everything thread with interrupts, just guardables, stance countermeasures and so on.
Basically to dissect every characters complete command list.
That could be a bit much though.

Anyway could you separate the guaranteed punishments from interrupts, evasion and so on?
That would be tidier and then i could paste it into the natsu punishment listings.
 
Finished Pyrrha Omega, including most JG Punishment too.


Pyrrha Omega Unsafe Attacks



236236A+B+K
6AK at mid-close range for side RO
3B at mid-close range
4B at mid-close range
A+B
6A+B at mid close range for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed, depending on range
66B at mid-close range
66B BE at mid-close range

1A
66K, evades if they do 1AA

1AA
6AK at mid-close range for side RO
8_9A for side RO
3B at mid-close range
4B at mid-close range
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed, depending on range
66B
66B BE

4AB
6AK at mid-close range for side RO
BK at close range for side RO
3B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed, depending on range
66B
66B BE

3B
6AK at mid-close range for side RO
BK at close range for side RO
4B at mid-close range
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed, depending on range
66B
66B BE

2BB or
FC 1BB
6AK at mid-close range for side RO
BK at mid-close range for side RO
4B at mid-close range
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed, depending on range
66B
66B BE

2K, FC 2K and BT 2K
2A at close range

1K
4B
WS K
FC 2A+B

WS A+B
2bA at mid-close range
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at close range

2B+KBBB
4B
WS K

WS B+K
2bA at mid-close range
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at close range

66_33_99A
2bA at mid-close range
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at close range

33_99A
2bA at mid-close range
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at mid-close range
4B at mid-close range

33_66_99K
2bA at mid-close range
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at mid- close range

11_44_77K
2bA at mid-close range
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at mid-close range
BK at close range for side RO
3B at mid-close range
4B at mid-close range
6A+B at mid-close range for PO PO A:6 guaranteed

66_33_99B+KA
66B, evades if they do 66_33_99B+KAB
66B BE, evades if they do 66_33_99B+KAB

22_11_44_77_88B+K
4a+bA

Running K aka Sliding
6AK for side RO
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

NS A and
AA at mid-close range
BK at mid-close range for side RO
4B at mid-close range
3B at mid-close range
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed

NS B
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at close range
BK at mid-close range for side RO
4B at mid-close range
3B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed

NS K
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at close range
4B at mid-close range

DNS A
AA at mid-close range
BK at mid-close range for side RO
4B at mid-close range
3B at mid-close range
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed



Just Guard Unsafe Attacks



6B BE JG last hit
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

2B BE JG last hit or
FC 1B BE JG last hit
6AK for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

AA, JG both attacks
AA
A:6
KK

3A
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

1AA JG last hit
A:6 air hit
6AK for side RO?
1A for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
4A+B
66B
66B BE
Throw

4AA JG last hit
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

4AB JG last hit
1A for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
3B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

BB, JG both attacks
AA
A:6
KK

6BB, JG last hit
AA
A:6
KK

3B
6AK for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw at close range


2BB JG last hit or
FC 1BB JG last hit
6AK for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

WS [A+B]
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

4B+K
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

8B+K and 8[B+K] i mean JG the downward stab,
the tremor has huge radius so it can be range safe
6AK for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

WS B+K
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw at close range

66_33_99A
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

11_77AA, 11_77A[A] JG second hit
6AK for side RO?
BK at mid-close range for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed depending on range
66B
66B BE
Throw at close range

66B
6AK for side RO?
BK at mid-close range for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed depending on range
66B
66B BE
Throw at close range

66_33_99A+B JG first hit, second hit gets auto JGed
6AK for side RO?
BK at mid-close range for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw at close range

22_11_44_77_88 A+B
6AK for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

NS A, DNS A
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

NS B
6AK for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

NS K
6AK for side RO?
8_9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE
Throw

For Whiff Punishment, Moves With Evasive Recovery



4AB, Recovery Crouch :H: may whiff


Siegfried also done but without JG stuff will do that later.
Siegfried's Unsafe Attacks



236236 A+B+K
CE at close range
66B at close range
66B BE at close range
A+B at close range
6A+B at close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

6A
3KK at close range

3A
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at mid-close range
4B at mid-close range
KK at mid-close range
3KK at mid-close range

2A
WS K at mid-close range
FC 2B at mid-close range
FC 2A at close range
FC 1K at close range

4A
A:6

FC 2A
WS K at mid-close range
FC 2B at mid-close range
FC 2A at close range
FC 1K at close range

WS AA
CE tight timing
9A for RO to your right
66B
66BBE
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

BBA
WS K at mid-close range
FC 2B at mid-close range
FC 2A at close range
FC 1K at close range

B6
AA at close range

6B
66B at mid-close range, tight timing
66B BE at mid-close range tight timing
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

3B
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at mid-close range

1B
A6 at close-mid range.
4B at close-mid range.

WS B
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at mid-close range

3KKB
4B
KK
3KK
BK at mid-close range ro side RO
A6 at mid close range
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

2K
6AK for side RO
4B
66B close timing
66B BE close timing
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

1K
FC 2B, at mid-close range

4KK
KK, at mid-close range
3KK, at mid-close range

FC 2K
FC 2B, at mid-close range

WS K
4B
KK
3KK

7_8_9K
AA at mid-close range

A+B
66K

22_88A
2bA

66B
66B, at mid-close range
66BBE, at mid-close range
6A+B, at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

33B
AA at mid-close range
A:6 at mid-close range

22_88BB
66B, at mid-close range
66BBE, at mid-close range
6A+B, at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

11_77B
4B, at close range
KK, at close range
3KK, at close range

44BB
66B, at mid-close range
66BBE, at mid-close range
6A+B, at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

22_88KAAB
66B, at mid-close range
66BBE, at mid-close range
6A+B, at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

22_88KA2AA and 22_88Ka2AA
66B, at mid-close range
66BBE, at mid-close range
6A+B, at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

Same for 22_88kA...

22_88KK
4B
KK
3KK
6A+B, at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

11_77K
AA at close-mid range

66A+B
FC 2A+B at close range

Running K aka Sliding
4B
6AK for side RO
6A+B

Siegfried Base Hold SBH A
66B, at mid-close range
66BBE, at mid-close range
6A+B, at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

SBH K
AA
A:6
4B at mid-close range
KK at mid-close range
3KK at mid-close range

Siegfried Reverse Side Hold SRSH B
6AK for side RO
9A, at mid-close range for side RO
66B
66BBE
6A+B, for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

SRSH K
6AK For side RO
66B
66BBE
6A+B, for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

Siegfried Chief Hold SCH KK
4B
KK
3KK

Siegfried Side Hold SSH AA
6AK, at mid-close range for side RO
66B, at mid-close range
66BBE, at mid-close range
6A+B, for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed, at mid-close range

SSH K
4B, at close range
KK, at close range

What do you think?

On a side note,
I'm thinking about merging this thread with the match up thread, into a general anti strategy thread.
And turning the Punishment listings into Anti Strategy listings.
With Interrupts, evadables whiff puishment hints in addition to mere punishment.
I'll probably do it, just have to come up with proper names and edit the opening posts.
 
I feel currently Nightmare/Sieg + the sisters and patsuka are Natsu's worst matchup, and worse as in total uphill battle. Natsu feel really strong against anybody that can't (reliably) punish her basic strings (like AAB, 66B etc.), but against anybody that can (I.e the sisters and patsuka) you pretty much lose all pressure and feel like you are playing half a character. Natsu has no zone nor guard crush game, so you ending up with nothing except praying for a WS K CH with some 22A/K throw in, or if your opponent is retarded you can step and punish with 22B.

Against Nightmare/Sieg its a different story. Basically Nightmare just 4G 24/7 against anything Natsu does, and poke her with a mix of tracking mids/highs, throw in some BB for chip damage + free push back or anything mids with super push backs. Natsu's 66B can't do a thing against Nm's 4G because its too slow and will be blocked, and Nm has the same whacky hitbox as SC4 where short (throw) ranged characters have extremely hard time connecting throws on him, you pretty much have to be touching him for the throw to actually connect. Basically the entire fight consist of Natsu trying to dash in while desperately try to read what Nm is going to do, while Nm just brain dead 4G every time he is in trouble. Sieg is less troublesome than Nm since his tools require him to be at least mid range, but same thing still applies.

The above matchups are winable, but its a uphill battle and most importantly, really really boring. Part of what make Natsu fun is the ability to keep pressure and disrespect your opponent's frames. These matchups make me wish I was playing a different character. Of course if anyone can enlighten me on the matchups feel free to do so.
 
thinkingofaname said:
.
Click to expand...

I've always said Nightmare and Seig are her worst match ups. I was always called a scrub.
Glad someone agrees.

And glad someone has the same reasons as I do.


I have an insanely hard time getting in on them. Ofcourse, once they're in the Natsu vortex its hard to escape. Its just a matter of getting there and staying there.
The advice they always give me is one of two things:
1) Get the life lead and just zone. I find this to be extremely effective against Seig most of the time. Nightmare not so much.
2) If I'm having trouble getting in, just run in and block. Well, there are some issues with this:
I have trouble getting in because of Seig/NM's pushback on block and how scary it is to get hit by them. If I just run in and block, I'm just asking to get mixed up or pushed right back out after a block string. Ofcourse, I can always sidestep and try to make them whiff- but my sidestep game is awful and Nightmare's stepkillers are amazing. Seig mainly relies on verticals, but they have some weird hitboxes, man.
 
To me it seems like trying one single type of playstyle against different playstyle enemies may be the main problem you guys are facing. You could maybe try to adapt? You mention the same 2-3 tools you use...
 
Its a lack of knowledge for me for the most part.
I don't play against them enough- as popular as they are.
 
I am one to learn slowly and thoroughly. Been in the lab for a week, barely played a few matches online for fun and I gotta tell you something. Natsu's moveset allows not only for full stage control and insane damage but perfect evasion and mindgames. You want to never attack the same way with her, 8K,A unto them for a knockdown and then groundrape into bomb 50/50, then duck throw for the next round then play the B+K game then rushdown with quick moves... just confuse the hell out of them. Everything she has is a guessing game for the opponent, if you know all her moves and can see the openings she's annoying and stressful to play no matter who the enemy is.
She has every possible tool in the game.

Just look at the simple notion that you can ground roll or jump over their heads to avoid their horizontal and kick attacks, and if they vertical you have wrk which leads into a full combo... it's sick.
 
Ground roll has the same effect of sidestep, if you do it too early, verticals still hit you. Jumping over their heads with the like of Siegfried/Nightmare doesn't mean anything, their verticals will rape you in the air, hence some of the matchup problems. Like what they said, Natsu has to play a little more punishment style. Zone, see if they throw out a big wonky move, and use A+B. Luckily for us, Siegfried has a common move where he spins his sword twice, instead of guarding both hits you could use A+B for a CH. On Nightmare, they commonly use 1A, which can also be jumped but needs to be anticipated. I honestly feel Nightmare is easier than Siegfried, since a lot of Nightmare transitions are up close in range where you can do work. If characters are block pushing you out, or using 4G, 6A+B has great range and is a combo starter on hit. Become more familiar with some of their strings that give you trouble in the training room, and learn what moves can punish which, or come up with strategies of sidestep, backstep, etc. The Greek sisters and Patsuka are indeed a stupid matchup though.
 
SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe said:
I am one to learn slowly and thoroughly. Been in the lab for a week, barely played a few matches online for fun and I gotta tell you something. Natsu's moveset allows not only for full stage control and insane damage but perfect evasion and mindgames. You want to never attack the same way with her, 8K,A unto them for a knockdown and then groundrape into bomb 50/50, then duck throw for the next round then play the B+K game then rushdown with quick moves... just confuse the hell out of them. Everything she has is a guessing game for the opponent, if you know all her moves and can see the openings she's annoying and stressful to play no matter who the enemy is.
She has every possible tool in the game.

Just look at the simple notion that you can ground roll or jump over their heads to avoid their horizontal and kick attacks, and if they vertical you have wrk which leads into a full combo... it's sick.
Click to expand...

no offense but for someone so new to the game/scene/high level you are very quick to offer advice or suggest something that is only true in theory.

this whole paragraph you just wrote means nothing against someone who knows natsu and what she can do.

natsu needs CH to do damage and can get zoned easily by certain characters.

i myself am having trouble with a good asta. the throw range is ridiculous, things that might seem safe for natsu, really you are put into throw break situations, the damage battle just isnt in your favor. punishing bullrush with AA doesnt really mean anything in the long run, when he can take so much bar so quickly.
 
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