Natsu match-up and anti-character general discussion thread

AkuSokuZan said:
Natsu should be added to the punishment list as well.

-ASZ
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No i'll keep it secret so no other Natsu can punish my Natsu. *Wahahahaha*
Nah, i'm just kidding, but it's a lot of work, i need 6 and more hours per character at the moment so it could take a while because i have a job and other stuff.
Maybe you could make 1 or two characters too? ^ ^
 
docvizzo said:
Also this SA is Top Tier in talking her worse, same as SC4 Ivy Arena...:P So dont expect serious answers..:)
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a glorious tradition that we taki players have upheld since sc2.

bad matchups... i don't really like the nightmare matchup but it's still manageable. and natsu has no bad matchups in any endless stage.
 
Who's the SA mod here? I wish we can clean up this thread a bit. All the chitchat and whining should go somewhere else.

@Flashmasher, thanks for the hard work. I gotta practice punish Seig since I don't have much knowledge against him.

Anyways, the biggest problem against nightmare isn't punishment. I mean I'm sure 95% of us already seen everything nightmare can do, he has not changed much since SC4, except move properties. Alot of the punishment and stuff against NM is range dependent. Nightmare has one of the best 4G in the game, its extremely hard to judge distance when he can sneak in a 4G at anytime. For example, the very typical 1K -> B+K transition is punishable by 66B, but only when the 1K hit at close range. If NM does 4G->1k -> B+K, you will whiff and get punished instead.

Natsu's 4G is really really bad. I find my own options very limited against NM when on the defense side. Between aGA, mids, and that insane throw range there isn't a sure way to defend against him, and his wakeup game is just as good with the low throw picking you up on the ground and mids that hit grounded. Once your at advantage for guessing right, NM can just 4G against pretty much 90% of Natsu's stuff.

What I currently do is fish for his aGA and alike with 6B+K BBB and force him to use the more safe tracking mids. A+B his throw attempts and 1k. Constantly running forward then either guard, or step, or 66B. Its a extremely risky play style since its completely dependent on reading NM, and he can get 80% + combos with meter if he land a good CH, but it does let me pressure somewhat. I don't think playing safe works versus NM at all, because he can literally poke and guard crush you all game while staying at safe range. If anybody have more advice I'm happy to hear it.
 
You're right. There's a lot to wade through here for people trying to find matchup information. Let's try to keep it on topic guys. Please don't anyone get offended, but cleaning up in 3, 2, 1...
 
Natsu mirrors, equally annoying as Taki Mirrors. For me back then it was trading A B the entire round, now it's not being able to get into fighting range with all the push back.

UnseenWombat said:
I think a Pyrrha or OPyrrha who block and punish appropriately is a pretty tough matchup for Natsu
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and back step.
 
A patient cervy [with backstep] is can be difficult too. Cervy can do a crapload of damage as well, and can punish a lot of things Natsu does with his aB.

Alpha pat also, of course.. a bit easier to handle, but you just have to be more careful with his tc moves on CH. And make sure you punish twister with A+B.

-ASZ
 
JAGTHEGEMINI said:
Has Natsu even one bad match-up...?

Yes, this is a serious question.
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aPat is pretty intense. Its 5:5 imo. Its getting easier as I get more practice against him though.
Cervy seems to be a bad match up. I just can't beat them unless they screw up big time.

I personally have issues with Nightmare and Siegfried, but that's more of a "how I play" problem rather than a Natsu problem. Sieg is getting easier as I have been getting more practice against him, but a good one will roll over me any day.

Nightmare, however, I'm totally free to 24/7. But I see the same things happen to other Natsu's that happen to me even though they insist the match up isn't totally one sided. I personally think he's the worst match up for Natsu.

EDIT: The Natsu mirror isn't too bad. Most mirrors in SCV are unfavorable match ups anyway. lol Or maybe it just seems that way.
 
Protoman said:
aPat is pretty intense. Its 5:5 imo. Its getting easier as I get more practice against him though.
Cervy seems to be a bad match up. I just can't beat them unless they screw up big time.

I personally have issues with Nightmare and Siegfried, but that's more of a "how I play" problem rather than a Natsu problem. Sieg is getting easier as I have been getting more practice against him, but a good one will roll over me any day.

Nightmare, however, I'm totally free to 24/7. But I see the same things happen to other Natsu's that happen to me even though they insist the match up isn't totally one sided. I personally think he's the worst match up for Natsu.

EDIT: The Natsu mirror isn't too bad. Most mirrors in SCV are unfavorable match ups anyway. lol Or maybe it just seems that way.
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Nightmare and Cervy a bad match-up? You think so? Mmmhh, interesting...
 
JAGTHEGEMINI said:
Nightmare and Cervy a bad match-up? You think so? Mmmhh, interesting...
Click to expand...

Again, it might be my lack of knowledge of the Cervy match up, but he seems to have the tools.
He's like the Pyrrha match up but has more damage output.

And the Pyrrhas are bad for everyone. Stab punish is just so good.
 
Worked on Pyrrha. Punishment complete, plus JGables and some other stuff.
Next one will be Alpha Pat.

Pyrrha Guaranteed Punishment

236236A+B+K
66B
66B BE
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

AK
A:6
4B

1AA
66B
66B BE
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

4AB
4B at mid-close range

BK
AA
2bA

6BK
4B at mid-close range

3B
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed, depeding on range

2BB
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
6A+B
66B
66B BE

3KK
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed, depeding on range

2K
2A at mid close range

B+KB
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

FC 1BB
6AK for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

FC 2K
2A at close range

WS A+B
AA at mid-close range
2bA at mid-close range

WS B+K
AA at mid-close range
2bA at mid-close range

33_66_9A
AA at close range
2bA at close range

11AA
AA at mid-close range
2bA at mid-close range
4B at close range

33_99B
A:6 at mid-close range
4B at mid-close range

11_44_77B
4B at mid-close range
A:6 at mid-close range

66K
A:6 at mid-close range
4B at mid-close range

11_22_44_77_88A+B
4a+bA at mid-close range

Running K aka Sliding
6AK for side RO?
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

BT 2K
2A at close range

236B normal or just
A:6 at mid-close range for RO?
A6 at mid-close range for RO?
BK at mid-close range for side RO?
4B at mid-close range
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed

236K
66B at mid-close range
66B BE at mid-close range
A+B at mid-close range
6A+B at mid-close range for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed
66K



Pyrrha Guaranteed Punishment That Also Interrupts Or Evades And Punishes ALL Possible Followups Including Stances

4AAA BE

3B, will evade and punish also if they do 4AAA BE


2B+KBBB
4B, will evade and punish if they do 2B+KBB or counter if they 2B+KBBB

44KA or 44AB
AA will also interrupt if they do 44KA or 44KB but then Natsu's 2nd A will whiff airborne Pyrrha
2bA will interrupt if they do 44KA or 44KB

33_66_99B+KAB
66B will evade and punish if they do 66B+KAB and interrupt if they delay the last B
66B BE will evade and punish if they do 66B+KAB and interrupt if they delay the last B

236, 22_88BAB
66B will evade and punish if they do 66B+KAB and interrupt if they delay the last B
66B BE will evade and punish if they do 66B+KAB and interrupt if they delay the last B


Pyrrha Interruptables And Evadables That Are Not Punishment i.e Block- Evade- Or Interruptable When String Isn't Continued Or No Stance Entered

3KK
Step second attack in both directions, punish with 4A+B, Note: Air Grab can whiff, combo with something else.

4AA or 4AB
2bA will counter second attack

11AA
2A will counter the second A
4a+bA will counter the second A


66B BE
66B will evade and punish the BE
66B BE will evade and punish the BE

236AA BE
9A will evade and punish the second A at mid-close range, and counter if they do the BE
9B will evade and punish the second A at mid-close range, and counter if they do the BE
8KA will evade and punish the second A, and counter if they do the BE, you are interruptable if Pyrrha opts to not do the second A.

236, 22_88AA BE
9A will evade and punish the second A at mid-close range, and counter if they do the BE
9B will evade and punish the second A at mid-close range, and counter if they do the BE
8KA will evade and punish the second A, and counter if they do the BE, you are interruptable if Pyrrha opts to not do the second A.


Useful Just Guardables

236236A+B+K JG last attack
4A+B

1AA JG second attack
4A+B

4[A]
AA will also counter if they do 4[A]B or 4[A]A for AAB NCC

4AAA JG third attack
A+B
66B will also interrupt if they do BE
66B BE will also interrupt if they do BE
Throw

4AB JG second attack
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

3B
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed
66B
66B BE

2BB or FC 1BB or B+KB JG second attack
6AK for side RO
1A for side RO?
9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

4B
AA
A:6
2bA
4B

3A+B and 33_66_99A+B
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

6B+K
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

7_8_9 B+K or 7_8_9 [B+K]
6AK for side RO
9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

4B+K
4A+B

WS A_B_K
AA
A:6
2bA

WS A+B and WS [A+B]
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

WS B+K
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed
66B
66B BE

11_77A[A] JG second attack

6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

66B BE JG second attack
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

33_99B
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed
66B
66B BE

11_44_77B
6AK for side RO
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 not guaranteed
66B
66B BE

11_44_77KAB JG last attack
6AK for side RO
9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

22_11_44_77_88B+K
6AK for side RO
9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

236AA BE JG last attack
6AK for side RO
1A for side RO?
9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

236B
6AK for side RO
9A for side RO?
BK for side RO?
3B
4B
A+B
6A+B for PO, PO A:6 guaranteed
66B
66B BE

236K
4A+B

236, 2_8K
AA
A:6


Pyrrha Attacks With Evasive Recovery For Whiff Punishment

236K, Recovery Jump, then Crouch, :SL:, :L: and :H: can whiff



Miscellaneous


22_88B
22_88BA
22_88BAK
You can do a lot like punish 22_88BA with Bomb or air grab but it may be hard to react to which version she's doing.

Thread:
http://8wayrun.com/threads/natsu-complete-anti-character-guide-project-work-in-progress.12105/
 
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