New Gameplay released: Mostly great, one problem though

[hailinferno]

So I was watching the newly released gameplay/analysis:

There's a lot of good stuff in this video, it's a full ten minutes with the producer talking over it
But on a few occasions you it says run counter along the side. That's not good, run counters sucked, it doesn't make sense to give you counter hits for hitting a moving target in a game about movement. Who do I shout at to fix it, in this early stage of development, or am I wrong and should be quiet?

 

[WuHT]

That's not good, run counters sucked, it doesn't make sense to give you counter hits for hitting a moving target in a game about movement. Who do I shout at to fix it, in this early stage of development, or am I wrong and should be quiet?

How would you suggest Project Soul go about punishing excessive movement ? It is a rock paper scissors breakdown where successful movement can yield better rewards than just guarding-and-punishment. If this is the case there must be some mechanism to not make mindless running the best defensive option.

 

[Xyerith]

How would you suggest Project Soul go about punishing excessive movement ? It is a rock paper scissors breakdown where successful movement can yield better rewards than just guarding-and-punishment. If this is the case there must be some mechanism to not make mindless running the best defensive option.

I'd like to add we also have no clue how safe movement in this game is, completely safe, lord knows how terrifying safe movement would be without counter hitting lol.

 

[hailinferno]

How would you suggest Project Soul go about punishing excessive movement ? It is a rock paper scissors breakdown where successful movement can yield better rewards than just guarding-and-punishment. If this is the case there must be some mechanism to not make mindless running the best defensive option.

What do you mean excessive movement, is it not the idea in these movement heavy games such as SoulCalibur or Tekken to keep moving as much as possible, in order to force whiffs that you can then punish. Horizontals already catch people who sidestep a lot, long range pokes already catch people who back dash a lot, they are effective without the counter hit properties, that is their purpose. Adding run counters dissuades the players from moving around at all, it turns matches into stiffer"your turn-my turn" matches, focused on defensive play. Compare later SCV matches to pre-patch SCV or for that matter any previous SC game. Those games, particularly 1 and 2, are considered the benchmark after all and they both tended to be much faster paced then 5, to their benefit IMO.

Or just look at Tekken, they don't have run counters, unless I haven't noticed it in all these years, a real possibility tbh. No one complains about excessive movement in that and I'm confident if you added them in you'd start a firestorm, at least amongst competitive players. They don't need them, they already had moves built into the games core that did this, tracking moves and the like. The idea of playing Tekken well, much like SoulCalibur, because unavoidably these two are very similar in a lot of ways, is that movement is the best defense, if you are playing perfectly, you should be dodging most attacks in order to force whiffs, blocking only that which you can't. Same with DOA or (R.I.P) Virtua Fighter.

My point is Project Soul shouldn't be punishing excessive movement, because to me constant movement is part of what makes SoulCalibur FUN, gives it a unique feel. If you are playing against someone, who you feel is just mindlessly running around you, you already have horizontals to catch him, if he is running away, you have your own running moves and long range pokes to catch him. It should not be a rock-paper-scissors between movement-guard-punishment, sorry if that's not what you meant, that's what it reads like, it should be , IMO, move or die, move to avoid, force whiffs and punish, block when you cannot. Move to the best position to attack, force your opponent to block your moves rather then dodge them, to keep them pinned down while you move freely. Run counters are too harsh, they stop that desire to move around because counter hits often mean higher damage, both in the initial hit and likely in a higher damage combo. It's scary to move in a game where movement is a core feature and encourages a much slower paced focus on turtling and mix-ups, IMO

 

[WuHT]

No.

You can move all you want, granted based on what the producer said he wanted something like SC2 meets SC5. There just needs to be some system to make sure that the opponent can punish you properly if he recognizes your tendencies and executes to take advantage of you getting predictable.

Getting caught stepping with counterhits is just the counter to make sure movement has the proper risk for the reward. Personally I would like to see less tracking verticals and keep horizontals as being efficient deterrents against 8WR.

 

[MisguidedAngel]

These counters don’t happen on backwards movement. If you’re sidestepping without knowing you can sidestep you should be punished. Just like Tekken.

I like this mechanic, personally. The game isn’t “about” anything. It’s not even released yet.

 

[KrayzieCD]

For all we know, step could be like it was in SC2,3, and 4. There were run counters in SC4 but you could still step G in all those games. Meaning movement was safer than it was in SCV.

We just have to wait and see......

 

[Nofacekill3r]

Tekken doesnt have insane counter hit combos for catching sidestep and korean backdash is safe. There are other ways to reward aggressive play while still keeping the feel of a fast paced movement system

 

[Leinahtan]

It seems armor breaking is back from IV/V. Am I the only one who was never a fan of that (at least when it made you strip naked on the 2P/CAS costumes)?

 

[Discoprophet]

What do you mean excessive movement, is it not the idea in these movement heavy games such as SoulCalibur or Tekken to keep moving as much as possible, in order to force whiffs that you can then punish. Horizontals already catch people who sidestep a lot, long range pokes already catch people who back dash a lot, they are effective without the counter hit properties, that is their purpose. Adding run counters dissuades the players from moving around at all, it turns matches into stiffer"your turn-my turn" matches, focused on defensive play. Compare later SCV matches to pre-patch SCV or for that matter any previous SC game. Those games, particularly 1 and 2, are considered the benchmark after all and they both tended to be much faster paced then 5, to their benefit IMO.

I completely agree. Horizontals countered movement just fine in the past. 8way run is part of what makes SC unique, I hope run counter gets removed.

 

[Aven Kujo-Gin]

It seems armor breaking is back from IV/V. Am I the only one who was never a fan of that (at least when it made you strip naked on the 2P/CAS costumes)?

I don't like it either. I hope they add this time an option to remove armor breaking.

 

[Signia]

What do you mean excessive movement, is it not the idea in these movement heavy games such as SoulCalibur or Tekken to keep moving as much as possible, in order to force whiffs that you can then punish. Horizontals already catch people who sidestep a lot, long range pokes already catch people who back dash a lot, they are effective without the counter hit properties, that is their purpose.

We don't even know for sure that Run Counters are enough to discourage movement in SC6 anymore than SCII's Run Counters did. In SCII, a lot of the time they just gave you what would later be CH-hit only on NH, and single As had good frame data. If you moved back or to the side, the opponent could move forward much more quickly and control positioning. There's lots more factors that determine how much movement is discouraged than just a different hit state. We don't even know what CH properties are out there, and with step G in the game you're blocking any big horizontals on reaction. Or are you scared of CH AAs and 2As?

Adding run counters dissuades the players from moving around at all, it turns matches into stiffer"your turn-my turn" matches, focused on defensive play. Compare later SCV matches to pre-patch SCV or for that matter any previous SC game. Those games, particularly 1 and 2, are considered the benchmark after all and they both tended to be much faster paced then 5, to their benefit IMO.

Okay, no, if you took your turn in SCV, pre-patch or not, you risked getting Just Guarded and punished for free without commitment.

Or just look at Tekken, they don't have run counters, unless I haven't noticed it in all these years, a real possibility tbh. No one complains about excessive movement in that and I'm confident if you added them in you'd start a firestorm, at least amongst competitive players. They don't need them, they already had moves built into the games core that did this, tracking moves and the like. The idea of playing Tekken well, much like SoulCalibur, because unavoidably these two are very similar in a lot of ways, is that movement is the best defense, if you are playing perfectly, you should be dodging most attacks in order to force whiffs, blocking only that which you can't. Same with DOA or (R.I.P) Virtua Fighter.

Tekken has i10 jabs that can stop sidestep when the stepper's at -4 and are advantage on block if they decided not to step, because it takes 7-8 frames to move far enough to the side before you start dodging anything. SC is the same way, except there aren't any jabs and the fastest verticals are i13-i14, meaning you can step G against non-horizontals up to -7-8 or so (you can step against stuff that isn't deliberately for catching step in more situations). VF has instant "sidesteps" but are not immediately cancellable, and they aren't even real sidesteps, if you Evade and you don't evade anything you enter an unavoidable Failed Evade state where you can be hit by non-circular moves, including delayed launchers. VF also has long range advancing jabs and special counter hits on backdashes.

Are you certain that the systems in other games really allow you to move more just because SC6 has one little thing like Run Counters? There really is a lot to answering this question, I'm not even sure I'd be able to do it for games that have been out for years, but here you are making such a judgement from ten minutes of footage?

My point is Project Soul shouldn't be punishing excessive movement, because to me constant movement is part of what makes SoulCalibur FUN, gives it a unique feel. If you are playing against someone, who you feel is just mindlessly running around you, you already have horizontals to catch him, if he is running away, you have your own running moves and long range pokes to catch him. It should not be a rock-paper-scissors between movement-guard-punishment, sorry if that's not what you meant, that's what it reads like, it should be , IMO, move or die, move to avoid, force whiffs and punish, block when you cannot. Move to the best position to attack, force your opponent to block your moves rather then dodge them, to keep them pinned down while you move freely. Run counters are too harsh, they stop that desire to move around because counter hits often mean higher damage, both in the initial hit and likely in a higher damage combo. It's scary to move in a game where movement is a core feature and encourages a much slower paced focus on turtling and mix-ups, IMO

Here's the reality when it comes to most SC games: Horizontals aren't that strong. They just get powered up a little bit when they Run Counter you. Really, they just become more in line with the strength of verticals. It's not enough to discourage movement. Hell, not even SCV's 20 frame guard cooldown discouraged me, I moved all over the place. SC6's counter hits don't even give as much bonus damage as they do in SCV from what I can see.

You are likely taking one idea of counter hits (Tekken) and projecting it onto SC6. Have a bit more of an open mind and when you try out the game, remember how hard it was for you to step and move effectively when you started playing Tekken.