Objective discussion on mechanics

L

lain

[08] Mercenary
This is a semi vent thread, but I'm trying to keep it civil. please provide me with your input


Alright guys. Some things I want to discuss in depth

The GI system in SC3:

-Instead of doing 4g you do 4/1g so you can't just shrug off all mids and lows and force the person into a guessing game. This made people like me, who can train a person to react a certain way very well, very good at this game and negated some of the guessing pressure game of pitbulling. SC3 fixed this by making you at least discern the difference between a low and a mid. No more catch all. perfect.

-You don't require a wallsplat to do big damage. This is too situational and I cannot stress this enough. Not only is it stage dependent, but it's situational because of your current position... really shitty. Consistency in the mechanics the mechanics rewards good players, randomness rewards no one but the lucky guesser or whoever was fortunate enough to have a character with a good wall game that happened to get a decent wall oriented stage picked. Not saying it doesn't take skill to GI and splat someone, but it allows for some serious match robbing. We have ring outs already for fuck's sake.

-Lets say you 4/1GI someone away from a wall, for some characters, this is actually a hindrance because of their bad range. I can't count how many times I've GI'd with Amy and been put at a disadvantage because they were knocked farther away from me than where they started the move. Short range characters don't even get oki from this. All you get is saved soul gauge. The longer range chars MAY get some oki or a quick guaranteed tap. That's it.

-Risk/Reward. If I am going to try to GI something, I want the possibility to at least equal or more than outdamage my opponent's attack. Let's say I GI Yoshi's 3b. This can lead to fucking huge damage. I play Amy, who is pretty solid but has shit range and shit combo damage. What do I get? MAYBE an FC1b, which is blockable, not guaranteed. 2k if they somehow magically end up close enough. Most of the time? nothing. They tech, and I'm back where I started.

Which brings me to my next issue, punishing lows. If you come from tekken, you know what I'm talking about. Lows are unique in that they force you to hit down and block rather than just block, and they can make you eat a mid which USUALLY is a big damage move or a launcher. It's fucking risky to block lows, so you should get something from it. In SC2 when I first started out coming from the tekken series after playing competitively, this really really infuriated me. The fact that someone like Nightmare could come up and 66a+k me and I could SOMETIMES block it on reaction really sucked. His oki was insane. I'd be relaunched with 3b if I teched incorrectly and started blocking low, or I would eat 66b or worse for laying there.

Lets say I DID block it, wasn't too punishable. This isn't Tekken though so I adapted, I started to GI shit. I enjoyed the fact that it just didn't lead to some canned air juggle that made them lose half their life. I liked the fact that they got a chance to redeem themselves with the correct response to my GI. If I read them correctly, I was rewarded greatly. They would eat any number of things from PT with astaroth, to a special grab, or basiclaly anything else I wanted to do if they re GI'd and I waited for it. Of course they could react any number of ways, but you put it on THEM to make the next play.

This is how I came to terms with the relative "scrubby" lows people could get away with throwing out in SC2 and it didn't bother me anymore. I was also OK with GIing grabs because they did WAY too much damage in sc2. In SC4 they don't do nearly as much as they used to, but that's fine because they can't be GI'd anymore(unless it is a JF). I adapted and found a game I liked just as much, maybe if not more than Tekken.

In SC4 they ruined a lot of things. Not only does it seem like are dumbing the gameplay down with these changes, but it also seems they went the extra mile so to speak, and punish people who don't like their stupid new GI system by creating the soul gauge. Don't want to GI? Guess what buddy, you better not do that too long or you will instantly get killed. This whole concept is pretty "what the fuck" for most fighting game fans, and unheard of. AGAIN, we have enough of this random robbing. Ring outs are in the game, remember this shit people?

Another thing is that some chars completely molest your gauge, and if you aren't forced to enjoy the new shitty GI system, these certain characters can and will hand your lunch to you. and it's GG.
 
You make a lot of points. But I am only going to address soul gauge and critical finishing comments in your last two paragraphs.

Personally I think this is a good addition to the series. It rewards aggression making the matches more exciting. It rewards GIing. It rewards movement. You have to be blocking quite a bit to have your gauge flashing red and your armour broken. Yes pre-patch some characters could soul crush you a bit too easily, but initial suggestions are that it has been toned down.

In 800+ online ranked matches I have been critically finished less than 5 times. That's in complete honesty. That's less than 1% of matches. And I'm an Asta player who can really eat soul-crushing moves from faster characters. Perhaps it's my style of play too though. If my gauge flashes red it's do-or-die time and I'll be damned if I'm standing there and eating a CF.
 
I'm ok with the changes in GIing as you've mentioned overall, but I also have to comment on the SC/CF. Out of my approx 1200 Games online I've gotten approx 120 cfs, so 10%. Not game breaking but helpful. In the end most of them have been on people who freeze onto their guard though, and those are the people you'd be playing mindgames with for big damage anyway. I've also found that many people change their style to be more aggressive when they get a flashing soul guage and can punish you severly for aiming for it. So it's really just another option, a second life bar if you will. I also want to say that many 2-D fighters have included guages which punish people for guarding too much and while they are not quite as easy to take advantage of (one button killing is pretty easy) they are exploitable all the same. Finally I think it was a good move to encourage more GIing, sidestepping and backing off which I feel are largely under-used by most.
 
I should have completely eliminated the soul gauge part since that seems to be the only thing people want to discuss.

Please support your opinion on the GI system with examples and facts, posited scenarios and anything else you can think of instead of saying: "i like it" then move on to some really long thing about the soul gauge that I've come across 900 times.
 
Good move to encourage sidesteps, backing etc.? They have attacks that punish based on those movements...they've just set everything up in the game to hurt you no matter what you do.
 
Something else I didn't see you mention about 4_1G, it heals your soul gauge, rather than damaging the opponent's. So when your gauge is flashing, it might be a good idea to try and 4_1G some things.
 
If doing 4_1G is not working for you why don't you use 6_3G? I agree that it's harder to keep an opponent on the ground in SC4 but hey, at least it's there. At least you can't 4G into side-throw anymore.

I don't agree with your assessment of the wall game. Where you are is not always random. Considering how fast and easy it is to close on your opponent, smart aggressive play can corner someone faster than you might expect. I remember thinking this way when the game came out too until I got reprimanded, and after a few events I've started to notice the availability for wall combos. Driving your opponent to a corner is a valid tactic in all things competitive, whether figuratively or literally, and is no difference here.

In that vein, parries (4_1G) are pretty useful as they tend to put your opponent farther away from you. Apparently that's what they're for. If you're looking to instead reverse the pressure, you should be using repels because then you can remain in a position to continue your attack. That's why we even have JIs so that if you're precise you're rewarded with a counter-hit.

On a separate note, if you want to talk GIs specifically you might want the title to be "Objective discussion on GI mechanics" instead.
 
It's ENTIRELY random compared to the old system which forced a guessing game and pulled them in.

Asking me to do 6/3 instead doesn't change any points I brought up about the new 4/1 system, it's not a valid refutation.
 
For the first point: What's entirely random?

Please correct me if I misunderstood: What I understand is that you're frustrated that 4/1 does not give you any kind of valid advantage, primarily because a) it forces the opponent away from you, and b) even if the opponent is on the ground, you don't have time to use it because of how quick the opponent can recover. What you would rather have is 4/1 draw the opponent in so that you can punish them for using a low. This is what I believe your argument is.

For me, I think you're looking at parries the wrong way. Their purpose is relieving pressure on you, basically a "reset". I understand that you don't think that's worth doing because you don't get anything out of it in terms of renewed pressure or damage, which apparently you got in SC3. Returning then to my previous argument, if you want to punish someone, you shouldn't be using 4/1 you should be doing repels.

I must have a mental disability to not understand how, if something isn't working the way you want, it must be wrong (this transcends SC into real life, where I have a hard time understanding why people dislike/complain about many things). This is the problem I have understanding why you feel the parry system is worthless and nerfed.

In my opinion they're for two different things, creating two different situations... None of them satisfy your desire to punish?
 
Syrpiektre said:
For the first point: What's entirely random?

Please correct me if I misunderstood: What I understand is that you're frustrated that 4/1 does not give you any kind of valid advantage, primarily because a) it forces the opponent away from you, and b) even if the opponent is on the ground, you don't have time to use it because of how quick the opponent can recover. What you would rather have is 4/1 draw the opponent in so that you can punish them for using a low. This is what I believe your argument is.

For me, I think you're looking at parries the wrong way. Their purpose is relieving pressure on you, basically a "reset". I understand that you don't think that's worth doing because you don't get anything out of it in terms of renewed pressure or damage, which apparently you got in SC3. Returning then to my previous argument, if you want to punish someone, you shouldn't be using 4/1 you should be doing repels.

I must have a mental disability to not understand how, if something isn't working the way you want, it must be wrong (this transcends SC into real life, where I have a hard time understanding why people dislike/complain about many things). This is the problem I have understanding why you feel the parry system is worthless and nerfed.

In my opinion they're for two different things, creating two different situations... None of them satisfy your desire to punish?
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Compare 6GI's to 4GI's in SC2. The back parries make them "freeze" longer, allowing you to do longer wind up moves like for example, astaroth's PT or a decent launch. with 6GI you don't get that, THAT is the reset. Why have two different types of resets? Like I said

LOOK AT THE RISK/REWARD. If I GI some launcher that could take off half my life, I don't want a fucking "guaranteed" 2k from random characters or a "possible" wallsplat combo that does as much damage as a side grab. It's retarded.
 
lain said:
It's ENTIRELY random compared to the old system which forced a guessing game and pulled them in.

Asking me to do 6/3 instead doesn't change any points I brought up about the new 4/1 system, it's not a valid refutation.
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It's not random, random would be doing the same thing, in the same situation, and getting two different results.

Some characters have better use for 4_1G than others, some have better use for 6_3G. If you're using Amy who's a soul crush monster, you'd be using primarily 6_3G to keep damaging their gauge. I use Cervy, who's soul crush game is weak and has the range and other tools like iTP to mix up at 4_1G range, and the added benefit of healing my gauge. So I prefer 4_1G, depending on the situation.

They do two entirely different things, as opposed to the last games where it was just a slight positioning change and some side throw shenanigans. I like it much better this way.
 
Lain I think you're missing something here about the GI system.. Well, either you are or I am. I agree with you about guard impacting a launcher - you should get more than a 2k - fortunately you can do that easily: 3_6G. You know 4G and 6G are the same, right? Same in the sense that they impact highs/mids and 1G/3G impact mids/lows.

Why do we need two tools for the same purpose? The only benefit to doing 1G_4G in sc3 is like kowtow said: slight positioning changes and sidethrow/backthrow shenanigans.

Alright, so Namco removed the silly backthrow shenanigans and still left us 6_3G to impact all high/mid/low options, and actually buffed GI because now you get a GUARANTEED throw attempt if you'd like.

I think the solution to your problem is simple: Stop using 1_4G and only use 6_3G like everyone else is doing.

Also, I think you were insinuating earlier that in sc3 if astaroth parries you with 4G he gets a PT if they just hold guard and dont GI back - I'm pretty sure that isn't true, but I could be wrong.
 
Fuzion said:
Lain I think you're missing something here about the GI system.. Well, either you are or I am. I agree with you about guard impacting a launcher - you should get more than a 2k - fortunately you can do that easily: 3_6G. You know 4G and 6G are the same, right? Same in the sense that they impact highs/mids and 1G/3G impact mids/lows.

Why do we need two tools for the same purpose? The only benefit to doing 1G_4G in sc3 is like kowtow said: slight positioning changes and sidethrow/backthrow shenanigans.

Alright, so Namco removed the silly backthrow shenanigans and still left us 6_3G to impact all high/mid/low options, and actually buffed GI because now you get a GUARANTEED throw attempt if you'd like.

I think the solution to your problem is simple: Stop using 1_4G and only use 6_3G like everyone else is doing.

Also, I think you were insinuating earlier that in sc3 if astaroth parries you with 4G he gets a PT if they just hold guard and dont GI back - I'm pretty sure that isn't true, but I could be wrong.
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I didn't play SC3 much, I mainly played SC2. If someone fucked up a re-GI they could definitely eat a move as slow as PT. I have done it several times to decent players.
 
lain said:
I didn't play SC3 much, I mainly played SC2. If someone fucked up a re-GI they could definitely eat a move as slow as PT. I have done it several times to decent players.
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Ah, well that could be why. The GI system was changed from SC2 to SC3, and remained the same from SC3 to SC4 (except the result of 1G_4G tosses them to the ground, but still impacts the same high/mid/low). If you're coming straight from SC2 then just think of it this way: 6G is the same, 3G is your old 4G, and 4G no longer exists.

You can play the same post-GI games as you could in SC2 for the most part, except the windows are a little tighter and you can throw for free every time if you feel like it. Effectively, very little of the GI mechanic has changed; still the same old GI -> launch right away or GI -> delay launch to avoid their immediate re-impact. (with a 3rd option of just throw them)
 
lain said:
I should have completely eliminated the soul gauge part since that seems to be the only thing people want to discuss.

Please support your opinion on the GI system with examples and facts, posited scenarios and anything else you can think of instead of saying: "i like it" then move on to some really long thing about the soul gauge that I've come across 900 times.
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You're complaining because I replied to one of your points which you asked us to discuss?

At least I took the time to read your topic and then take the time to write out a reply. Next time I'll remember not to bother if you are going to dismiss it as unworthy as part of the discussion.
 
Can you please explain to me how Amy deals shit combo damage? Because her combos deal good damage...
 
Actually CFs should happen often, it's just that online players suck.
About the 1G4G, I think 4G should have the old GI properties and 1G should be the new GI properties with a ringout attachment.

My biggest complain is negative frames on hit, moves like this need to go. All moves should give adv when they hit.
 
Not really. There reason there are moves that are minus on hit is to provide a check against spamming.

Like how they made almost all low kicks minus on hit.
 
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