Official Natsu 1.02 Patch Changes Discussion

SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe

Red Lotus
Complaining doesn't get you anywhere.

That's not exactly true. You need to have a voice to be heard.
If you ask nicely, people brush you aside. You need to get some heads steaming so that people start to answer your questions, even if in an unruly fashion, but you get the info you wanted.
Helpful people are rare and few and far inbetween unfortunately.
If I walked up to you, asking what Natsu's setups are and what's her general attack plan and pressure tools, you'd probably dismiss me with some generic crap. If I piss you off saying Natsu can't pressure for shit you'll more likely blow up in my face saying HOV mixup a/b (div if they back out) is the best pressure tool there is etc.
 

houndDog75

[09] Warrior
I will say this i'm tired of listening to people to complain about her, Her low besides the bombs and 1a and 44kk are all taht hits low, b+k wind roll just swing and she's knocked out of them, but everyone watches and then get wacked with ka4 then which po move I do. I have to work like heck to get inside on people. I think the all the crying is crazy, once I get inside they are dead or I can do massive damage, each character has strenghs and weakness's you have to learn them. I hate Nightmare I struggle in that match up so I started to play NM to learn his moves,

My rant is done
 

houndDog75

[09] Warrior
they second I fight Natsu and someone hovers I swing, she has great moves that are unsafe. But people watch her b.c. they don't know the match up.
 

MrAdam0

[08] Mercenary
If you ask nicely, people brush you aside. You need to get some heads steaming so that people start to answer your questions, even if in an unruly fashion, but you get the info you wanted.
It's the other way around...
The people here in the Natsu SA are glad to help out and i can't think of a time where someone was not given help. Keep ignoring advice and just complaining about a bunch of nonsense when it has been explained multiple times why it's wrong and people are bound to get anoyed.
 

SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe

Red Lotus
It's the other way around...
Alright then let me give this a shot...
Could you guys please tell me:
1. What are Natsu's best setups for pressure?
I'm speaking about the actual rushdown aspect of her game. I figure there would be a horizontal, a vertical and a kick setup that's good for bashing on their block and maybe sometimes dealing guard damage too while fishing for ch and punishes?
2. Is WRK the only CH option for a combo?
If so, can the above pressure setups lead to a WRK CH scenario?
3. What are her optimal whiff punishes?
I find myself trying to 66B / 4A PO people after a blocked string but I either have frame disadvantage (I think you get that if you just blocked something, right? It would be logical) which in turn makes them CH me a lot, or they back away too far / step it.
 

houndDog75

[09] Warrior
whiff punishers, I'm just an average player i work all day, but to punish I would do 66b, 22b, 6ab I think that is the natural string, nothing wrong with a+b to put them onto the ground for a 2a+b or 4a+b,

I pressure with 66b, a+b, 4a+b6, aab, bbk, bb4a+b and then do the bomb, bk4 PO stance,

I can't help with 2, I don't fish for counters, I'm more of a punisher, i've actually been playing NM and he actually fits me better, but I loved taki and i love natsu
 

Protoman

[09] Warrior
66B is only i17. Its not that fast. Its good as a mix up, CH tech crouch, or whiff punish. Its pretty bad to try to punish someone off block unless you know they like to press buttons and interrupt them.

I never use 4A unless I'm ending a round or it comes out by accident. I just don't like the move.


Main punishes on block that I use:

AA, i10, +2 on hit. If you block something, 98% of the time you can get an AA punish. Its only 19 damage, but damage is damage.

A:6, i10. If you can get the Just consistently, this is the best punisher we have imo. Rings out.

A6, i16. Rings out.

6A+B4, i16, +11. Its a decent punish. Damage got nerfed so its mainly just there for the PO mix up afterwards. Or you can go into the PO A:6 NC afterwards if you want the knockdown.

A+B, i16. Hard knockdown. Don't know the advantage after patch. Rings out.

6B, i16, +6. Stab. Decent damage.

3B, i16. Launcher.

66B, i17. Good damage, can be BE'd. Hard knockdown. Rings out. Probably best damage/set up you can get if they throw out a stupid move. Its used much better as whiff punish though.

3KK, i14, +2. Usually good to use the 3KK B+K, 3KK8 or 3KK 2B+K strings for some Wind Roll action.

6AK, i17. Rings out to Natsu's left.




As of now, CH WS K is one of the few ways into the stun combo.
The others are HOV B, HOV A (first hit only), CH FC 2A+B, CH 6A+B (second hit only).
If I missed any, someone correct me.





Sidenote: Does anyone know the impact frames on the mid hits of A:6? Are they i16 like the normal A6?
 

Afrofrog

[09] Warrior
I'm surprised there isn't more emphasis on 6B. I've been using it and for +6 frames it's a decent frame trap.

I would also like to add, that if you get predictable trying to punish with AA , that people will try to TC and murder you. So if you can do A:6 consistently, which is a mid, you'll be vicious.
 

kAb

[12] Conqueror
I'm surprised there isn't more emphasis on 6B. I've been using it and for +6 frames it's a decent frame trap.

I would also like to add, that if you get predictable trying to punish with AA , that people will try to TC and murder you. So if you can do A:6 consistently, which is a mid, you'll be vicious.

unless you are late, you shouldnt be getting ducked on a punish, i assume you mean block punish because why would you whiff punish with AA.

A+B is i20.

song in general when you block something you have frame advantage not frame disadvantage. but every move has its own set of frame date so its not just like you can hammer out whatever move you want. you have to know the character you're fighting and when to get guaranteed block punishment damage and when to force a mixup because there is no guaranteed damage. only a few moves per character have advantage on block and conveniently alot of those are lightning guard break moves

on the opposite end of the spectrum you have hitstun. when you hit somebody you are left at advantage in general, exceptions are that most lows do not give advantage on hit. again each move has its own unique hit stun and its best to be familiar with it so you know which moves can be uninterruptable after. use this strategy to get counter hits and force the opponent to block, which will then allow you to mix in slower moves because of their hesitation.
 

ghost333

[09] Warrior
That's not exactly true. You need to have a voice to be heard.
If you ask nicely, people brush you aside. You need to get some heads steaming so that people start to answer your questions, even if in an unruly fashion, but you get the info you wanted.
Helpful people are rare and few and far inbetween unfortunately.
If I walked up to you, asking what Natsu's setups are and what's her general attack plan and pressure tools, you'd probably dismiss me with some generic crap. If I piss you off saying Natsu can't pressure for shit you'll more likely blow up in my face saying HOV mixup a/b (div if they back out) is the best pressure tool there is etc.

Let me clear sth for you.People will always respond to questions as long they are not repeated in the same way and as long they are not a asked in an agressive way.
complaining will also get u nowhere...i was about to troll the shit out of you.
I mean why is there a forum then?So people can just post agressive text to each other?
NO it is to compare and share thoughts, not all people agree and thats fine, thats why people try new things and find new strategys.

Anyway if u need sth ask away!! I doubt if u ask properly and without extra rant and polite people will not respond.

now on your questions:

1. What are Natsu's best setups for pressure?
PO B on block should be the top move, also any move on hit that leaves Natsu on PO.
because you are + on frames and the fear of PO B makes them either hasty or to make mistakes.
That's why u will find people to freeze and take an EX on the face.
Also the caltrops used to be feared as a combo ender because they guranteed an 2A+B , now it has been replaced with k2 on most combos.
Whenever u score a hit, normal skillfull people will stop attacking and try to anticipate your next move to either: block corectly or high/low/Sidestep crush your next attack, that's also the reason to duck after a throw, it is not to avoid the throw, but to punish the attempt while the enemy's throw hasnt finish yet,becuase he can't block during that time, but don't expect it a lot!!So lets go now to
Throws: Natsu is a close combat char , and u will find yourself a lot of time in throw range,it is never a bad option to use one ,but remember that most people will use the B option to escape.
I have find out that the A+G throw during the tech of enemy usually works.

2bA is a great jab that gives big frame advantage on hit and it is only i8 very great for interupts.

Also u will be suprised that moving around in sidesteps and slowly aproaching your enemy creates fear ,mainly for 2 reasons ,1) natsu has a lot of fast attacks that can interupt or CH catch them and 2) because people know that she has dangerous moves that can reach farther that what they seem A+B , 22_B and 66B and 44_A /11_A are great for those moments.
66K is both a TJ and TC , it is unsafe but can close quite the distance through a lot of moves.

2. Is WRK the only CH option for a combo?Technically a combo is even CH 6A+B PO A:6 or CH WR AAA the damage is less but that doesn't mean it is not a CH combo.I am not trying to be smartass or anything, but i have a big fighting games history and this is a common mistake, most new players have only one thing in their mind the big killer combo!! DON'T!!! forget that combo please and try to focus on what actually is happening on the match,I see a lot of people lossing other guranteed strings becuase they cant react fast enough, the reason ? they are only thinking that amazing X combo.
u will be suprised if u actually nail down all that small moves, even two 66B+G or A+G BE throws deal more damage than the combo!! so just forget it!! learn all ger combos including that one , but do not never focus your gameplay around that one move, u will get raped in every fight.

3. What are her optimal whiff punishes?People already posted them but the main one when in doubt should be AA or the even better A:6 if u can.

Ofc this is personal thoughts u can keep whatever fits for you or just throw them all in the garbage.What u will notice is that i didn't give u specific answers like use X then Y but general gameplay strategy tips, the reason been that this can help u in more situations than just X then Y or C.


@Unseenwombat: lol i thought that post was from you too!!
new Avatar u say??? good let's all steal your new avatar and make this place a mind maze!!
That would be funny.
Can i request one with her default ninja costume during her win pose of raising the one leg into a kick?


EDIT: forgot sth about the pressure:
remember that most strings create presure on the enemy because they have to be on edge to react /guess corectly to block or counterattack you.
for example look at 3KK series a great move where the power comes at the last hit.
here some tips:
a) 3KKK
b) 3KK~ WR ~ B/throw mixup (enemy can 3B u out of WR so just use a or c ending)
c) 3KK ~ DB A/B/K/throw/random move u like
d)3KK ~ throw
e)3KK ~ crushing move like 8K or 4A or even sth else.

as u can see this move has different ending that creates a lot of presure in an oponent because it has a lot of different properties, so what will the enemy use?and what should u use? well that's why it is called a mind game u have to go there on your own.
 

OkamiBW

[08] Mercenary
I'd also assume that if you're "spamming" quick attacks and pressure, then people will want to interrupt you with something like AA, which tend to hit high, so...crouch under them, CH WS K, etc.
 

houndDog75

[09] Warrior
Usurper! I made this avatar! Though it's flattering you liked it enough to swipe it.

I saw your post and thought, "when did I write that?" Then I saw your name.

Well maybe it's time to make a new avatar anyway.

I have borrowed it. I can't get my picture that I made to cut down in photo shop I'm just not that great with photo shop.
 

SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe

Red Lotus
What's the deal with 2B,A ? It seems like a decent pressure tool and low crush, for when people try to TC you, but what exactly is there to it? Frame advantage/trap?
 

ghost333

[09] Warrior
2B,A and 2bA are different.

2B,A is Mid,High and on block it is -14 for first hit(the B) and for the A it is on -6 ,
on hit for the 2nd hit(the A) it is +4 it is NC and Delayable.

2bA hits high it is -6 on block + 4 on hit , but if perform perfectly it is the FASTEST move on the game it impacts on 8th frame making it faster even than A.

You can hit with it between enemy's attack when other chars can't and launch a sudden counterattack since you are +4 (frame adva.).