Protoman
[09] Warrior
It offers you complete safety.
-6 isn't punishable by anything in the game.
-6 isn't punishable by anything in the game.
Official Natsu 1.02 Patch Changes Discussion
- Thread starter Boogieman
- Start date
If u don't know how to read or fully understand frames it is ok dont be scared to ask.
here is the main concept:
when you press a button or perform an attack ,the game uses an animation like kicking or whatever attack/special move u did.
Its move has a point in the animation that becomes active as an attack , it is called impact frame a single A attack becomes active at the 10th frame, so we call it i10 meaniing that the impact of the hit comes at the 10th frame.
the outcome of each attack is either to:
1)-be interupted by an enemy attack (which means that the enemy scores a counte hit on you,and your move doesn't make it)
2)-whiff(your attack hits thin air, meaning u are exposed for the recovery of the move or the enemy cleverly avoid the impact of the attack , for example ducking under a high attack)
3)-connects with the enemy and is either
a)blocked by him , or
b)You scored a hit on him.
Now there are some things before we go deeper:
-when an enemy blocks an attack he gets to a block animation(an impact ,like steping a bit back,sparks flying on the air,it depends on the move) ,YOUR char goes to a recovery animation like sheathing the sword back to his belt or steping his feet down after a kick.Both of them depending on the move that got blocked have a preseted animation some times the attacker takes less to recover from his attack , sometimes the person that blocked recovers faster.
This is how we look how a person has advancement after a blocked move or not.
Some examples: You attacked with a move that needs 4 frams to recover after it was blocked,but the defender needs 10 frames to recover from his block-animation(because the attack was very powerfull mostly) that means that the attacker recovers 6 frames faster than the defender.
So the attacker is at +6 frames ,which translates as:" when the attacker recovers the defender needs another 6 frames before the game accepts any of his input" ,which means that u can start to reattack faster than him and his moves will be delayed becasuse he hasnt recover yet , so if u both press A again which is an i10 attack(become active at 10th frame) u will win the exchange since he will start his attack 6 frames after you.
Now dont forget that some moves on block get minus (-4 for example) that means the defender is ready and has the control of his character faster than the attacker.
So a -4 move on block( it is important to remeber it is on block the -4) means the defender will probably win the exchange.
-Lets go now to the on hit properties which is exaclty the same thing, when a move hits an enemy and it is not blocked, the oponent gets a hit animation(it can be anything even a stun) now depending on how fast the attacker that hit ,and the one taking the attack recovers we have again some frame advantage/disadvantage(most hit moves give at least + frames,90% of all moves in the game).
lets take now 2bA : it is -6 on block , +4 on hit , i8.
that means if the oponent defends he gets 6 frames adva., if he takes hitted u get +4 frames adva. the i8 means that it becomes active at the 8th frame of the animation, thats 8 frames after u input the move.
Also take note that even though you might have advancement a move that TC(crouches) will almost always win over a high move no matter the + u get from before.Same goes with other realted staff.
As an aditional note lookat this : PO A is unblockable after a blocked B,[K] becuase the [K] makes the attacker at +8 frames, while PO A come out at the 7th frame ,so since the enemy hasn't yet the control of his char,he cant block.Same with PO B ,2bA.
PS: this is a simple explanation for further info u can look around.
natsu frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag4-AFwttkImdDZHOVN4VEVfeFFJaEEyRmtHS2FLWUE#gid=0
here is the main concept:
when you press a button or perform an attack ,the game uses an animation like kicking or whatever attack/special move u did.
Its move has a point in the animation that becomes active as an attack , it is called impact frame a single A attack becomes active at the 10th frame, so we call it i10 meaniing that the impact of the hit comes at the 10th frame.
the outcome of each attack is either to:
1)-be interupted by an enemy attack (which means that the enemy scores a counte hit on you,and your move doesn't make it)
2)-whiff(your attack hits thin air, meaning u are exposed for the recovery of the move or the enemy cleverly avoid the impact of the attack , for example ducking under a high attack)
3)-connects with the enemy and is either
a)blocked by him , or
b)You scored a hit on him.
Now there are some things before we go deeper:
-when an enemy blocks an attack he gets to a block animation(an impact ,like steping a bit back,sparks flying on the air,it depends on the move) ,YOUR char goes to a recovery animation like sheathing the sword back to his belt or steping his feet down after a kick.Both of them depending on the move that got blocked have a preseted animation some times the attacker takes less to recover from his attack , sometimes the person that blocked recovers faster.
This is how we look how a person has advancement after a blocked move or not.
Some examples: You attacked with a move that needs 4 frams to recover after it was blocked,but the defender needs 10 frames to recover from his block-animation(because the attack was very powerfull mostly) that means that the attacker recovers 6 frames faster than the defender.
So the attacker is at +6 frames ,which translates as:" when the attacker recovers the defender needs another 6 frames before the game accepts any of his input" ,which means that u can start to reattack faster than him and his moves will be delayed becasuse he hasnt recover yet , so if u both press A again which is an i10 attack(become active at 10th frame) u will win the exchange since he will start his attack 6 frames after you.
Now dont forget that some moves on block get minus (-4 for example) that means the defender is ready and has the control of his character faster than the attacker.
So a -4 move on block( it is important to remeber it is on block the -4) means the defender will probably win the exchange.
-Lets go now to the on hit properties which is exaclty the same thing, when a move hits an enemy and it is not blocked, the oponent gets a hit animation(it can be anything even a stun) now depending on how fast the attacker that hit ,and the one taking the attack recovers we have again some frame advantage/disadvantage(most hit moves give at least + frames,90% of all moves in the game).
lets take now 2bA : it is -6 on block , +4 on hit , i8.
that means if the oponent defends he gets 6 frames adva., if he takes hitted u get +4 frames adva. the i8 means that it becomes active at the 8th frame of the animation, thats 8 frames after u input the move.
Also take note that even though you might have advancement a move that TC(crouches) will almost always win over a high move no matter the + u get from before.Same goes with other realted staff.
As an aditional note lookat this : PO A is unblockable after a blocked B,[K] becuase the [K] makes the attacker at +8 frames, while PO A come out at the 7th frame ,so since the enemy hasn't yet the control of his char,he cant block.Same with PO B ,2bA.
PS: this is a simple explanation for further info u can look around.
natsu frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ag4-AFwttkImdDZHOVN4VEVfeFFJaEEyRmtHS2FLWUE#gid=0
Sorry for 2nd post on the row.
remember that u dont have always to attack after a move , a wise choice after a move with - frames is to guard.
the faster move in the game is i8 frames. ANd most chars has only an i10 or i11, so as long u are less that -10 frames u are safe, becuase the games allows you to block.
EDIT: damn , u posted before i write my reply,here is some extra info:
remember how frame works.
a move the gives you -13 on block means that for 13 frames u dont have the control of your char, which means if the enemy uses a i14 move u can block it, but if he uses a faste attack like i12 u cant block it, becuase u haven't yet the control of your char.
remember that u dont have always to attack after a move , a wise choice after a move with - frames is to guard.
the faster move in the game is i8 frames. ANd most chars has only an i10 or i11, so as long u are less that -10 frames u are safe, becuase the games allows you to block.
EDIT: damn , u posted before i write my reply,here is some extra info:
remember how frame works.
a move the gives you -13 on block means that for 13 frames u dont have the control of your char, which means if the enemy uses a i14 move u can block it, but if he uses a faste attack like i12 u cant block it, becuase u haven't yet the control of your char.
SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe
Red Lotus
Hey thanks for all that!
Actually my question was more in relation to figuring out about Natsu's pressure tools.
If something is -6 on block and I use a +4 that's an i8 alright, so I can keep alternating and fishing for a knockdown/counter with those two?
1. It seems to me as though the general idea of the character would be to shut down the opponent's game.
- For this, 2bA, A6, A:6, and 2B,A seem to be the best tools, alongside ch 2k as her apparently fastest kick. (Anything else to use?)
2. Given I'm correct, I'd be trying to play her as a rushdown/shutdown character, as most of her combos were taken away so why not just thrive on not allowing the opponent to do what they want and THEN capitalize, right?
So I'd like to understand her move sets better:
- what's a safe tool for getting in their face, 66B and A+B were mentioned. I'll ask about these later when I understand the rest of her moves and their placement.
- what's a counter tool (I understand that 66B and the above horizontals are pretty good for this, and wrk)
- what's a tool against people who back away (44A I think it was? Fan dance or what...)
- what's her safest option in getting in and staying in on characters like 'Roth, 'Mare and 'Fried, etc (Seems like 66B again but it seems to have a lot of pushback so it's not exactly about staying in on block, right?)
- And finally, how does PO fit into all this? If I understand correctly PO is not exactly an in-the-face tool, because it isn't quite a frame advantage to enter po when blocked, right? So it's more about the oki?
Actually my question was more in relation to figuring out about Natsu's pressure tools.
If something is -6 on block and I use a +4 that's an i8 alright, so I can keep alternating and fishing for a knockdown/counter with those two?
1. It seems to me as though the general idea of the character would be to shut down the opponent's game.
- For this, 2bA, A6, A:6, and 2B,A seem to be the best tools, alongside ch 2k as her apparently fastest kick. (Anything else to use?)
2. Given I'm correct, I'd be trying to play her as a rushdown/shutdown character, as most of her combos were taken away so why not just thrive on not allowing the opponent to do what they want and THEN capitalize, right?
So I'd like to understand her move sets better:
- what's a safe tool for getting in their face, 66B and A+B were mentioned. I'll ask about these later when I understand the rest of her moves and their placement.
- what's a counter tool (I understand that 66B and the above horizontals are pretty good for this, and wrk)
- what's a tool against people who back away (44A I think it was? Fan dance or what...)
- what's her safest option in getting in and staying in on characters like 'Roth, 'Mare and 'Fried, etc (Seems like 66B again but it seems to have a lot of pushback so it's not exactly about staying in on block, right?)
- And finally, how does PO fit into all this? If I understand correctly PO is not exactly an in-the-face tool, because it isn't quite a frame advantage to enter po when blocked, right? So it's more about the oki?
Protoman
[09] Warrior
Yeah, its hard to tell if there's a difference by just looking at it.
I know someone mentioned having a way to check frames a few pages back so I thought I'd just throw it up there.
I could do some testing later in between the matches going on today and see what I can find out on my own.
No it is not....-6 on block means that if that move gets blocked your next move will be slower by 6 frames....
it seems to me that i confused you more.
http://tekkennation.com/frames_data_for_dummies.htm
OkamiBW
[08] Mercenary
Basically, if you're at -6 on block after an attack, then the opponent will have 6 more frames to do whatever before you can. If that means he wants to grab you (i17), then you have 11 frames to stop him or avoid it. AA (i10) will thus beat it out 1 frame before his grab occurs.
Alternatively, same situation (-6 on block), if the opponent does something fast...let's say, a Natsu AA (i10), then how many frames do you have to do something before the hits comes out?
Alternatively, same situation (-6 on block), if the opponent does something fast...let's say, a Natsu AA (i10), then how many frames do you have to do something before the hits comes out?
-6 + 10 = ?
4 frames
4 frames
SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe
Red Lotus
So Natsu's fastest move is i8 thus against people who have no move faster than i13 the strategy I thought of, works. Who are these characters?
here is a list : http://8wayrun.com/threads/impact-frame-data-all-characters-quickest-move.12345/
Also do note what i posted before:
Also do note what i posted before:
almost always = 95+%
OkamiBW
[08] Mercenary
It's just that the way you word it sounds awkward. When determining frame advantage, you should only have one number that's + or - and the other two in question would be one "impact in x frames" for one character and one for the other.
Protoman
[09] Warrior
Not really.
There's only like two characters with no moves faster than i13. I actually think Ast is the only one. Other one I thought was Sieg but I'm not sure.
And you can't think like this. Natsu's i8s are both high. They can be ducked under and whiff punished.
They're also almost entirely worthless damage and frames wise.
SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe
Red Lotus
There goes that idea then. I have this inkling that bombing them is not the only way. Though it works wonders.
UnseenWombat
[14] Master
You're looking for frame traps, and unfortunately you won't find many of them. The only genuine one I know of is B[K]4 PO A:6. Anyone who knows the K is high though will duck it. Most moves put you at a disadvantage on block, so you're not going to find any guaranteed follow ups that will beat out someone's retaliaton attempt. And the one frame trap that does exist that I mentioned above, is super-telegraphed. They have like 40 frames to duck the K.
Your best bet is toblock when you're at disadvantage, and do mostly safe moves.
Now Natsu does have the PO BE, that you can use on block to teleport through a punisher. That's sorta like a frame trap, though it's really more of a frame trick.
Your best bet is toblock when you're at disadvantage, and do mostly safe moves.
Now Natsu does have the PO BE, that you can use on block to teleport through a punisher. That's sorta like a frame trap, though it's really more of a frame trick.
FleshMasher
[13] Hero
Good news.
Before the patch some opponents could tech the last hit of CE when it was performed after moves like 4B or 3KKK.
Not anymore, thanks to the patch.
Edit: This makes 4B a viable throw whiff punisher again... if you have meter.
Before the patch some opponents could tech the last hit of CE when it was performed after moves like 4B or 3KKK.
Not anymore, thanks to the patch.
Edit: This makes 4B a viable throw whiff punisher again... if you have meter.
Afrofrog
[09] Warrior
He's talking about after ducking a close high or throw. Like if someone is predictable enough that you duck his throw, then do 4B to knock them down for the combo. 4B as a move to throw out there not knowing if they're going to attack or if the move itself is even going to reach, is pretty bad.
Protoman
[09] Warrior
kAb
[12] Conqueror
+4 on hit and -6 on block is nothing to sneeze at. considering even her normal pokes (AA, BB, 3KK) only give +2 i'll take +4 anywhere i can get it.
Protoman
[09] Warrior
Are the cancels really +4 on hit?
Doesn't ever seem like it.
Hm..
I think I need to take a look at the bible again :S
Doesn't ever seem like it.
Hm..
I think I need to take a look at the bible again :S
Neoshinji
[09] Warrior
Once you become more and more aware of other characters frame traps, i8 becomes more useful. Its not a huge counter but a bit more jarring to them when you knock them out of their frame trap set up. Plus if you think they are going to duck you can always just do 2b.
When they block PO B you can get 2B~A for free. The time is a pain for me though and usually you are better off doing a mix up. But if all it will take is a sliver of health to finish the match then I guess this is an option hah.
Also, on a side note. This is always a suggestion I give to other taki/natsu players. But one way to improve you overall skills with her is to beef up your spacing and defense game. I personally use Asta to help with this. IMO they play very very similar range wise and to a degree offensively.
Asta's Headbutt = Natsu's PO B.
Asta's A+B = Natsu's A+B
Asta's 66K = Natsu's 66B
Asta will teach you how to land throws more as well as how to punish from mid range. For people that are having trouble adjusting to the new patch of Natsu or those that mainly play online this is a very good way to improve your overall game defensive wise.
Depending on Natsu's speed has always been a very narrow way to utilize her and the game in general.
SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe
Red Lotus
Somebody told me that spacing is what really separates the better players from the rest.
In fact, playing Pyrrha next to Natsu helps me see things in an entirely different light.
I am also interested in Asta though.
And I was instinctively planning to play him next... I_I
In fact, playing Pyrrha next to Natsu helps me see things in an entirely different light.
I am also interested in Asta though.
And I was instinctively planning to play him next... I_I