OK guys please need help with New Raph.

[Gamegenie222]

My only complaint is his scv 3a being locked into prep which was a good i14 frame mid horizontal move and help push away opponents on CH to reset neutral and decent plus frames. Also 66B+K being locked into 6bb string a nerf to his oki game in a way. Otherwise he is interesting just gonna develop at Prepless Raph and Prep raph style depending on the character mu and if they know to kill prep.

 

[Zanaken]

My only complaint is his scv 3a being locked into prep which was a good i14 frame mid horizontal move and help push away opponents on CH to reset neutral and decent plus frames. Also 66B+K being locked into 6bb string a nerf to his oki game in a way. Otherwise he is interesting just gonna develop at Prepless Raph and Prep raph style depending on the character mu and if they know to kill prep.

B4 is a good enough replacement for 66B+K, but I still don't know what 3A's role could be replaced with. I think 1K works for most of those situations?

 

[Gamegenie222]

B4 is a good enough replacement for 66B+K, but I still don't know what 3A's role could be replaced with. I think 1K works for most of those situations?

Yeah i be using that a little more as for the 1k not fast enough to step kill or push them away to reset neutral.

 

[darkfender]

Why you say B4 is a replacement for 66B+K? is this neutral or + on block?
B4 is extremely slow though won't work already tested.
Won't catch stepG even on huge frame advantage.

8way run is easy to deal with problem is step G as always

 

[Zanaken]

Without full frame data, I have no idea. Don’t be so negative, I just meant situations where you 66B+K (opponent on floor, might roll) you can B4 instead.

Until we figure out Rachael’s game plan, it’s not fair to assess each move in a vacuum. It would be the equivalent of complaining that Asta’s 28B+G is bad because “How am I meant to hit them with it? When they jump?”

If you predict a step killer, just 464 in Prep, with right timing you’ll be quite far back and can whiff punish

 

[darkfender]

464 prep?
Not following you. it doesn t hit its just retreat forward retreat
4 is also slower and weaker than old 44B and possibly slower of current 44B while the impact is a joke.
Lacks even TC option
Consider that differently from scV people can punish with verticals without fearing aGI.


Last but not least if i retreat with 4 what i am gonna do? to actually punish? 6K is not so fast as a punisher.

 

[Zanaken]

Try looking at positive aspects of the character. His disgusting damage from SC, his now fully viable RO game and his punish game.

I am not really struggling with prep being shut down, so I don't know what I'm doing differently to you, but I find moves like 6B466K (instant prep) very hard to stop. If they're ducking, I doubt they will punish with range, so 6B4B sorts them out for a third of their life.

It's not retreat forward retreat unless you make it, with correct timing it can be retreat-retreat.

Are you aware/using CE and RE in prep?

 

[darkfender]

Try looking at positive aspects of the character. His disgusting damage from SC, his now fully viable RO game and his punish game.

scV improved raph damage already.
Raph turned from scIV into a spacing/poking character.
Prep was viable on HIT only in scIV and unviable any way in scV

Issue is they shut off spacing, defensive and punishing tools to force players to spam prep.
Now i won't even mention that prep is simply ridiculous when it comes to risk reward (in scV despite what people said it turned out to have 100% answers to all mixups for how badly was designed and nerfed after patches).

I am not really struggling with prep being shut down, so I don't know what I'm doing differently to you,

As an old raphael player i know first things to test:
stepG left and test various Attacks
SCVI is new, stepG is somethng most people don't even consider or even know they simply 8wayrun left that is a different world.
Took 1 year to discover on scV how to shut completely down raph and its the first thing i tried on scVI

but I find moves like 6B466K (instant prep) very hard to stop. If they're ducking, I doubt they will punish with range, so 6B4B sorts them out for a third of their life.

prep4 is a nerf from scV what makes you think its viable now? as said 44B is way stronger despite being bad.
Lets analyze it:
You use 6B as a punisher (its intended use)… why should you retreat?
You use 6B expecting a block what's the point of using 6B? its a mixup with 2A so you risk being stepped or crouched for 10 damage opposed to how much?
Lets say you are lucky and gets blocked, your opponent also has to whiff on retreat for another 50% mixup.
Now consider how are your chances to succeed and for how much damage opposed to opponent chances to succeed for how much damage.

To tell the truth i didn t see this miraculous 464 you talk about but since first 4 can be punished from crouch i don't know how it could work.

Are you aware/using CE and RE in prep?

RE has the same flaws of prep.
CE is a bad mechanic itself. a spammable move to use when you shouldn t.
Try to think what would happen to a nightmare using HIS CE to stop your prep….

I don't see yet what makes you think differently from scIV and scV makes prep viable as spammable offensive tool since other tools are lost.
But even if it is… would be like turning Nightmare into talim… not only very unlikely but also the best way to annoy old customers without nothing to gain.

SC is a game of risk/reward

 

[Zanaken]

I’m not sure what you want? Buff Raph? We toy with popular characters such as Ivy/Sig/Nightmare.

Listing character weaknesses, again - in a vacuum, is not saying much about him as a whole.

 

[darkfender]

I’m not sure what you want? Buff Raph?

Would be the very least….but to be frank they should to the opposite they did in scV Patches. RESTORING old moves they removed and buffing present ones at least to scIV level (scV launch would be optimal being the only mid tier in recent history)

But for now i'd only wanted i didn t give money to namco.

We toy with popular characters such as Ivy/Sig/Nightmare.

Can you back up your claim for once?
Night got buffed A LOT and can abuse both RE and CE (almost overall answer to raphael) paired with KD and ground game.. If you think its still in Raph favour well either your opponents are really bad or you are really good but its not related to the matchup.

Sieg i have to admit i didn't test enough. Still got buffs. Possibly still one of the few that Always been in Raph favour

But IVY? really?
The most difficult matchup ever, since Ivy has all the tools to shut off all raph stuff (22K to name one a fast TC mid range tracking low kick with high damage followup) and got even a new safe 50% ranged mixup? Short range unless she also got hit severely by the nerf bat there have never been a chance.
Yes we can punish couple moves other characters cannot with 236:B but that should be basic matchup knowledge to know that and avoid to use the move.

Listing character weaknesses, again - in a vacuum, is not saying much about him as a whole.

And this is what add fuel to the fire...
I am talking about the huge nerf of defensive tools and lack of serious answers to the weakness of prep game and overall impossible risk/reward ratio. You answer with situational untested theories and then write this…. I am surely pissed off due to years of bad consideration of players from NAMCO that keeps nerfing a BOTTOM tier for no reason and you tell me to look as a Whole? Please forgive me if you think i am aggressive… i am only frustrated and pissed off to have given money to a company that clearly hates raphael players.

At this point i am only waiting to see if i was so clueless to have missed something huge that will disprove me.
And only chance atm is waiting for some tournament vid.

 

[darkfender]

I say this without any real testing but it seems like Raphael might actually be well equipped to deal with RE. With his prep transitions at range you always have the option of 464ing to force a whiff, outreach/GB the opponent with the ridiculous range of 462B, or use his ample prep strings to make the timing of releasing RE difficult. I'm itching for my lunchbreak to play with it.

Don't get this:
RE is to use at disadvantage from opponent.
Can you 464 on reaction after seeing if 6B hit?

Need to test.

Any vid of this 464? did i miss it in movelist? is it any different from 4 when it comes of punishing the first Backstep?

Edit: Also, need to test the safety of 3A since it's also a LH, TCs, is fast, stops step, and leaves you crouched (I consider crouched to be a + since raphs WR BB is turning out to be straight up nutty)

3a used to be unsafe and - on hit if i remember well dunno in this version.
But you sure it tracks LEFT?

 

[Zanaken]

Prep 4AB also has disgusting range, I can't see much going wrong. Frankly, if in your scenario his opponent can react perfectly to things such as prep, then Raph should also have perfect reactions for fairness sake.

Tell me, how do you shut down 464 in a way that beats me staying in AG, every prep option (because I can just tap 6,) RE and CE?

This iteration of Raph seems to me to be the strongest. SC5 Raph was just bad, fun, but bad.

 

[Zanaken]

If you find the 464 timing a bit tight in combos, remember the 4 can be buffered at any point (in between B’s) and then you just tap 6 after the animation ends of the move.

For anyone struggling with it, it’s not a matter of jamming 4:6 as fast as you can. It’s more about learning to get Prep out and tightening the input over time. I can land the combos and still see a few frames of prep 4 coming out.

 

[Zanaken]

No, we're talking about totally separate things. I don't mean the instant Prep tech, I mean cycling Arriere's Gambit to create distance. As in, tap them when they RE, Arriere's Gambit (wait until raph moves the full amount backwards), Prep, Arriere's Gambit.

The iPR isn't hard, it just feel unnatural. After messing with it for ~1 yesterday it's nbd.

My bad. 46464646464646 works nearly as well and maximises aGI if you wanna look like an idiot xD

 

[darkfender]

Prep 4AB also has disgusting range, I can't see much going wrong. Frankly, if in your scenario his opponent can react perfectly to things such as prep, then Raph should also have perfect reactions for fairness sake.

In SC people either can react or its part of a mindgame.
In the situation where you have a 50% mixup at most, an opponent knowing the matchup can be only in 2 situation:
A) cannot physically react (i18 moves are the borderline usually but the animation pays a role) thus has only to know wich option he has opposed to your options and just needs to buffer the answer during hit/block.
If your options are 10% success and deals low or no damage opposed to huge punishment then your stance is WEAK,

B) can wait and react

Case A to see balance you have to evaluate risk/reward

I don't think that RE is an answer i think stepG and followups is.
See scV in wich anyone could quickstepG ANY prep option but SE B delayed that was reactable even online. (also perfect guarded)

Now we shouldn t even discuss 4B since its not a good prep starter unless you plan to hit with its TC or at tip where you can simply avoid prep to be relatively safe.
But in this case 44AB as a starter is way better since it Always have been neutral or + on block.

So i really cannot und erstand your point since 4 can be punished. Unless 464 does something different at all.

Tell me, how do you shut down 464 in a way that beats me staying in AG, every prep option (because I can just tap 6,) RE and CE?

Most character have tools ex double angel step, mitsu 6B+K and similar

also

CE to name one since you are relying on broken things you need a bar to use.
StepG is another one.

464 doesn t deal any damage afaik.

And even so:
opponent stepG
you either: attacked with a vertical, most K, CE or RE = whiff for huge punishment
A: blocked at best
464: answered on reaction
SE: StepG on reaction maybe punished for low damage anticipating A or K as much as preparing an easy GI.

SEE above for how risk/rewards works.

Can you show some vid at least so maybe i get what you mean and i can see how your opponent answer your prep?
It would solve any problem at once.
Unfortunately friends i used to play with in scV with raph matchup knowledge are on PS4 while i am on PC... or i would simply ask you to play.

It could also be that i am doing 464 wrong because its too easy to punish.

 

[Zanaken]

Look, point A doesn't say anything. It can be reduced to "if it's weak, then it's weak."

I argued a lot years ago how tourney expirience shouldn't validate points, but in all of the ones I went to, not one time, did I find anyone who could consistently stop Prep. We're talking top players, well practiced, and in dedicated conditions to the match. They could beat me just fine without relying on Prep punish xD

I just feel relaxed in the knowledge that SCVI will not be an exception. You could talk about how a certain option crushes prep, which you haven't, and I would still say that someone reacting to 6B Prep, or WR BB46 Prep (bear in mind I'll mix up entry,) just earned the shit out of whatever punish they got.

Are you incorporating all new tech to your game, such as 6B46BK (i10 34 damage KD) and SC BB:B46BBA+B?

 

[darkfender]

.

Are you incorporating all new tech to your game, such as 6B46BK (i10 34 damage KD) and SC BB:B46BBA+B?

EDIT: i see so you say i can interrupt 4 that is actually not written in tutorial.
need testing.
Still need to see frame data on prep4, A

hard to understand since people changed notation . old would be 6(B)46B
that i don t like but i didn t test 6(B)4A

And still need some out of prep tools.

Not following you.
6B is neutral at best on hit and doesn't combo with 46B (that needs CH for LH if i remember well).
6B also is definitely not i10 (11 or 12 i guess).

SC would be?

(Not really interested in combos yet, until i find a reliable way to hit unless we are talking about punishers or left step killers.
First defense, then offense.)

 

[Zanaken]

I call 6B a reliable way to hit.

 

[darkfender]

I am confused:
Do you mean 6(B) or 6B?
46K or 4, 6K?

Also did anyone test left stepG answers against tracking moves?
I cannot test them for at least a week and people online seems 8wr like no Tomorrow not being reliable.

 

[Zanaken]

There is no 6(B), only 6B.

Input 6B and tap 4 to enter AG, then, before the AG animation starts, tap 6 to enter Prep. After that, tap BK