OK guys please need help with New Raph.

Von_Blackhardt said:
Prep IS good now, but at the cost of his kit in other places. I've gone into explicit details as to why I think he's weak in the current game amd no one is listening. For the record, I do very well with Raph (currently no. 5 Raph on steam), I'm quite in tune with him.
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No offense, but being high on ranked doesn't really say much. I'm a trash tier Talim and was sitting at like #3 for a good while. A lot of people get away with a lot of dumb stuff online, and it's really not representative of actual offline play. Just being half-decent at the game will net you huge win streaks. High rank right now is more a sign of dedication to a character and time played in ranked than it is skill level. Especially at this point in the game's life where there's so many newcomers to the game.

I'm looking at this from a view of having competed before, and knowing what traditionally makes a good Calibur character. If Raph turned out actually horrible I would be extremely surprised. Good, fast verts, an extremely fast standing punish that knocks down and has fairly decent damage for its speed, a decent pressure tool, good movement, a great 2A and his step killers are decent (shame that 6AA doesn't jail, though).

I read your posts, and I think you're ignoring any good aspects of a character, and chalking up one-time things as representative of the character at all times. I don't even know what horizontal you got stepped out of except like prep A or AA? Which aren't moves you'd use to kill step anyway. Then you go saying SCIV Raph was more powerful than this iteration which is just markedly untrue. SCIV raph was extremely bad, and all his stance options were stuffable. Sounds more like you were playing SCIV Online, where lag was so bad that anyone with a pressure tool or a solid low was good considering you couldn't punish or block properly.

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That said, I don't think anyone knows where raph stands because I don't think any single person has a strong grasp on the full cast yet.

Raph definitely has to make reads still, but he's not the only character who's in that spot. And he has good block punishment now, and that's really awesome.
 
Destinizish said:
No offense, but being high on ranked doesn't really say much. I'm a trash tier Talim and was sitting at like #3 for a good while. A lot of people get away with a lot of dumb stuff online, and it's really not representative of actual offline play. Just being half-decent at the game will net you huge win streaks. High rank right now is more a sign of dedication to a character and time played in ranked than it is skill level. Especially at this point in the game's life where there's so many newcomers to the game.

I'm looking at this from a view of having competed before, and knowing what traditionally makes a good Calibur character. If Raph turned out actually horrible I would be extremely surprised. Good, fast verts, an extremely fast standing punish that knocks down and has fairly decent damage for its speed, a decent pressure tool, good movement, a great 2A and his step killers are decent (shame that 6AA doesn't jail, though).

I read your posts, and I think you're ignoring any good aspects of a character, and chalking up one-time things as representative of the character at all times. I don't even know what horizontal you got stepped out of except like prep A or AA? Which aren't moves you'd use to kill step anyway. Then you go saying SCIV Raph was more powerful than this iteration which is just markedly untrue. SCIV raph was extremely bad, and all his stance options were stuffable. Sounds more like you were playing SCIV Online, where lag was so bad that anyone with a pressure tool or a solid low was good considering you couldn't punish or block properly.

____

That said, I don't think anyone knows where raph stands because I don't think any single person has a strong grasp on the full cast yet.

Raph definitely has to make reads still, but he's not the only character who's in that spot. And he has good block punishment now, and that's really awesome.
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This was a well-thought out response. A lot better than saying "shut up you're wrong".

I don't use AA in most cases, if someone is close enough to be hit with A, then they're close enough to get hit with 6B, leaving the option of prep if I want it. As far as Raphael in this game versus Raphael in SCIV, he had more tools for not just killing step, but punishing it. Crimson Moon was an amazing move to shut down Sophitia, Yoshi and the like. You could also trick turtlers into ducking for a free KD. A+B was also great, not only because it evaded verticals, but also let you follow up in a number of ways. In this game, we get a butchered version of it that is a guard impact, or a standalone move that jails *YOU* into a two-hit move that can be blocked and then crouched. I think my experience with Raphael is negative because I'm missing the tools that I used frequently in my own playstyle, which was more tactical and more step-reliant, while simultaneously punishing people who step, and I'm just annoyed that now I'M the idiot getting stepped all of the time, with seemingly no recourse.

You're right - it does need time, but as fallacious as it is for me to say he sucks at this point, it's equally fallacious to say that he's strong.
 
Destinizish said:
Yeah I honestly think Raph is pretty good this time around, even if just for 6B46BK. That shit is absolutely nuts as a punish. Feels like I'm playing SCIV Setsuka, except I won't literally eat my whole health bar if they block my punish.


Prep actually works now as a tool, though. You have options for any kind of response in it, and if you guess correctly, you can get a lot of damage out of it. Way better than every previous version of step where there were catch-all answers.
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I don't know what that is. Are you talking about Prep B+K? or Prep B, K?
 
New raph is pretty boss but you gotta totes bring your A game cuz vi is chock fulla bullshit. Learn to us 6b~iprep. Its doing gang busters for me.
 
This might be the best version of him though also the most execution heavy. Im afraid ill never go for 6b46prep online
 
Windstar said:
I don't know what that is. Are you talking about Prep B+K? or Prep B, K?
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Its a possibly bugged string that lets you interrupt a prep to start another.
Its really difficult but you should do like this:
6B,4 wait an istant after retreat start and press 6 to get back in prep.
Now the Tricky part is you should release 6 super fast and press B after that press K.




Zanaken said:
I feel like I’m taking crazy pills here…

- He’s fast, long range and has beast combos.
No, the combos are bad because they could not hit 0_o
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No trust me.
Anyone coming straigt from scV has all the right to believe Raph is bad since namco treated him so bad in the past letting him play with only few tools.
And now all those tools are gone while he should rely on a stance that 2 chapters and 3 nerfs to be HUGE risk and tiny reward.

And the obvious fear of QstepG (possibly a bug? who knows, luckily seems gone) alone was the proof that combos are useless if you cannot land them
It needs time to see what's new.

Speaking of wich:
I am pretty sure 6b46BK is unintended and will be nerfed. (and i would agree with it).
I just hope that they don't nerf 6B that is alone 50% current raphael.

Point is prep seems viable for now and low pokes are beasty as Always.
Raph lost his spacing game but can make up with prep.

Unfortunately atm people is studying characters and not matchups so they are not fast to react to mixups.

KingHippo said:
I have no opinion (nor do I really care about) Raph's current tier placing or badness, I just think saying things like "Lol step left and Raph is dead" is demonstrably false and hurts actual discussion.


https://twitter.com/x/status/1055123826512605185
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despite i am somehow changing my mind i'd like to discuss what i read above:

this vid is simply pointless. (well showing a wall RE combo is not meaningful either but gg for the creativity and input ability simply defining good a character on that is wrong)
you simply need to either step block or attack on block without step.

That Taki reaction is simply wrong.
Answers should be
a) using tool to interrupt prep after block (she has many low, high and i guess mid too able to hit before raph). and its actually FAIR to punish an i10 blocked stance.
B) step and block if she suspect a vertical to bait a whiff and THEN attack on reaction (its easy since it would be a whiff) consider SE have Always been reactable with a little experience.

Taki Always been the only with moves able to shut off any prep option on block (and many even on hit) but was a bad matchup.

Step was something like 14 (without the interrupt of scV) and it would be like trying to attack at heavy disadvantage
The step Block is what needs testing because nothing will enter at -14...maybe prepA could? but didn t track left in previous sc games.


Destinizish said:
1)I'm looking at this from a view of having competed before, and knowing what traditionally makes a good Calibur character. If Raph turned out actually horrible I would be extremely surprised. Good, fast verts, an extremely fast standing punish that knocks down and has fairly decent damage for its speed, a decent pressure tool, good movement, a great 2A and his step killers are decent (shame that 6AA doesn't jail, though).

2) I read your posts, and I think you're ignoring any good aspects of a character, and chalking up one-time things as representative of the character at all times. I don't even know what horizontal you got stepped out of except like prep A or AA? Which aren't moves you'd use to kill step anyway. Then you go saying SCIV Raph was more powerful than this iteration which is just markedly untrue.

3) SCIV raph was extremely bad, and all his stance options were stuffable. Sounds more like you were playing SCIV Online, where lag was so bad that anyone with a pressure tool or a solid low was good considering you couldn't punish or block properly.
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1) this didn t prevent scV raphael to be BOTTOM tier with danpierre.

2) there are a lot like 66A. AA and so on. its a tradition most raph horizontals do not track left.
Problem is prep antistep mixups

3)No it wasn,t. It was in the bottom of mid tiers but still viable.
44AB force crouch was a good tool to prevent step
Prep A did actually catch step
33KB did a huge damage
You had more stances like B+K BB
Spacing of 44B (TC) was really powerful
AB had the low tracking despite being vertical
Lot of advantage on block
Better aGI

This is the point exactly… namco tauught us prep to be totally unviable on block (inscV even on hit) that we need to see if its not the same.
You have to give at least a low reward antistep option if you read correctly AND want to neuter raph game outside prep (that is infact what they did).

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Out of prep anti step tools are 4K, 2A and 1K.
Or 44AB if it proves to be good on block.


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If you want to start discussing matchups:
mitsu and sophitia got their supertechcrouch back that should be able to shut off almost all prep mixups.
 
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darkfender said:
stop offending and explain why its not.
i10KD punisher would be the best punisher in the game afaik.
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Someone has to have the best punish in the game. The almost schizophrenic way you've attacked people trying to tell you Raph seems much stronger in 6 - whilst calling for a nerf... I call that trolling.
 
Zanaken said:
Someone has to have the best punish in the game. The almost schizophrenic way you've attacked people trying to tell you Raph seems much stronger in 6 - whilst calling for a nerf... I call that trolling.
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Did you miss the last 5 answers when i started getting the grip out of new raph and said i was wrong?
I guess not.

And 6BB already is strong (was weaker in scV and nerfed the same).

I need just 1 <--- tool to make raph totally viable being ANY step punisher on prep block starting from 44AB or at least some mixup, or even a + on block or any reward for a correct step prediction, otherwise people could just step block for 0 risk potenrial reward.
I didn t find it yet but new prep has lot of stuff.

P.S: also never attacked people... only discussed things.
 
The reason prep will never have absolute safety, to step or otherwise, is because they give us multiple entries. The way I see it - if it got blocked, you've already lost a battle.

Step catchers like A follow-ups are never a reaction to step, unless your opponent is so slow to react you could have entered SE instead of stuffing their step. Usually, it's a reaction to getting blocked. If I block Siegfried's stance entries, I get to punish. If I block any stance entry, I should have advantage - I don't think Raph should be an exception, and I don't think he needs to be an exception either.

Prep 6K and Prep A both are absolutely viable step catchers. If 44AB is giving you issues, stop using it.
 
Zanaken said:
The reason prep will never have absolute safety, to step or otherwise, is because they give us multiple entries. The way I see it - if it got blocked, you've already lost a battle.

Step catchers like A follow-ups are never a reaction to step, unless your opponent is so slow to react you could have entered SE instead of stuffing their step. Usually, it's a reaction to getting blocked. If I block Siegfried's stance entries, I get to punish. If I block any stance entry, I should have advantage - I don't think Raph should be an exception, and I don't think he needs to be an exception either.

Prep 6K and Prep A both are absolutely viable step catchers. If 44AB is giving you issues, stop using it.
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I don't agree.
It would simply destroy the point of most prep entries and of 1K entry since its +0.
I think they Always had at least 1 hard read option against step as much as they have hard read options against 2A (being prep 4).
SCIV if i remember well had A hit not in CH opposed to being unsafe on block.

If not simply stepping would be the unversal answer once again at least on block
Risk= blocking
Reward = a whiff punish

Obviously i don't ask a blocked 6B to have mixups, but a 44AB at least should.

Afaik sieg/NM stance entries are actually + or 0 on block and you have no universal answers just mixups.
Even the fast low kick (comparable to our 1B) is +0 on block.
 
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Sidestep into 4B stuffed Sieg in 5, not too sure about now, but I bet something similar will be found.

I'm not sure if there is a language barrier or something, but I don't understand the rest of your post - sorry. What is it you disagree with exactly? That he should be safe on block?
 
Sorry lot of wrong puctuation also.


44AB used to be a good prep entry for mixup on blocks.
Now if opponent can simply step and block after 44AB it defeats the point of half prep outside combos.
I think if i expect a step i should have at least an option to dissuade it even if unsafe if my guess is wrong.


P.S: new sieg/NM mixups are way stronger. They still have mixups suffering crouch but if they guess you are about to crouch, they can punish you with another mixup option.
That is the case of all SC characters… i don't agree raph should be the exception.
 
darkfender said:
44AB used to be a good prep entry for mixup on blocks.
Now if opponent can simply step and block after 44AB it defeats the point of half prep outside combos.
I think if i expect a step i should have at least an option to dissuade it even if unsafe if my guess is wrong.
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Prep 6K, which if it catches step should get you a BB:B46BB:B


Windstar said:
I don't know what that is. Are you talking about Prep B+K? or Prep B, K?
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Prep BK. It's a string. If 6B lands, 46 immediately cancels into prep, and BK is a natural combo with it, which gives knockdown.
 
I played around with and against 44A(B) in practice mode for a bit. My conclusions so far:

  • after blocking 44A(B), sidewalking is a bad idea, gets caught for a run counter by prep AB or prep 6K
  • after blocking 44A(B), single step left into block evades all non tracking moves from prep and blocks any that would track the movement
Possible solutions to this:
  • prep AA seems like the best straightforward option, it's safe enough on block that you can step most verticals afterwards (not Raph's 6B though, it's too fast)
  • prep 6A is okay too, but you get worse frames on block, so not much of a point doing this IMO
  • prep 6K is unsafe, gets punished by Raph 214:B
  • prep A by itself is slightly unsafe, only gets punished by Raph 6B
  • prep A(B) is not good, they can duck the second hit on block
  • delay into linear prep options is actually quite nice, if you wait a bit Raph realigns himself, so if they just block you get to wail on them with prep B or whatever
  • prep 6 is the same idea, can loop into itself as long as you want
  • prep 4 into back off is okay if you want to disengage

IMO the best option is to wait half a second to realign and then do a prep BBB_BBA mixup (this also has the upside of beating people who throw out AAs or other highs against prep), but I'm open to other suggestions. Prep AA is the safest thing to do, as it will counterhit sidewalkers while being safe against step into block, but it's pretty low reward. Also remember that all of these except prep 4 will lose to 2As.

Oh, and let me know if I missed something or got anything wrong.
 
darkfender said:
We only miss
SE and 4 Mixups.
If i expect a step followed by a block SE and 4 should give raph enough advantage to hit before opponent can react.
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Yeah, I'm not sure how I forgot about that. Tried it out and yeah, by the time SE or AG come out it's too late to interrupt. And if they just block there after the step, SE B and AG B don't even whiff! How nice.
 
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