Presidential Debate is on!

Rei_Shao_Khan said:
I have an idea what Ron Paul's basic arguments are, but I would like to read the book to see how he believes his opinion in contrary to the US history around the time of the Great Depression. Most Historians would disagree with that approach, and I am interested to see what kind of argument he makes.
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Ron Paul really doesn't say much about the Great Depression in this manifesto. If you want to get some good information on the Great Depression and how FDR was the SECOND WORST president we have ever had (I would easlly put George W Bush as the worst after the recent economic collapse), you should read some books by Richard Maybury. Maybury is not a politician, he is a disciplined investor who investigates politics and foreign relations to public his quarterly investment column... Read these two books (they are really one book, but in two parts):

Amazon.com: World War I: The Rest of the Story and How It Affects You Today, 1870 to 1935 (Uncle Eric Book): Richard J. Maybury, Jane A. Williams: Books
Amazon.com: World War II: The Rest of the Story and How It Affects You Today, 1930 to September 11, 2001 (Uncle Eric Book): Richard J. Maybury, Jane A. Williams: Books
 
2nd worst president... I am going to have to read that. Most scholars place FDR as the second best president of the United States. I did hear that many of the policies of the New Deal were total trash, and that when the Second New Deal actually worked, that FDR actually purposely sent the country into a recession in fear of another Great Depression, but I want to hear this.

I already got a word of mouth conversation from a historian that said that Woodrow Wilson was the worst president of the United States. I need to get this.

Edit- Just heard a promotion for Huckabee again. The man was hilarious, but more than anything, he was a populist. The best thing that Huckabee ever did was play Air Hockey against Steven Colbert with a big puzzle piece of Texas.
 
Yeah, he was bad... Calvin Coolridge was bad. Warren G. Harding was bad. Andrew Johnson was bad.

They are the universal list goes on with Grant and a few others around there. Everyone wants to be the guy that writes that book that changes our views. That is why I think I hear some people say things like "Wilson and FDR were our worsts presidents".
 
DivineChaos97 said:
Jaxel, are you really into politics, because it shows.
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Not at all... I hate politics... But I am REALLY into HISTORY. And I'm into TRUE history, not the history that the history books teach. One of the downsides to history books is that history is taught by the victors; so propoganda abounds. Why do I place FDR as the second worst President we have ever had?... dammit, I went to go get those Maybury books and look into them for reference, but I lent them to Bibulus a few years ago, and he lost them... Anyway, I think the biggest reasons is World War II in itself. FDR is famous for saying "I hate war" in his "Day of Infamy" speech after Pearl Harbor; but the real truth is that FDR was purposely using Pearl Harbor as a way to expand his warmongering efforts without looking interventionist.

Months before Pearl Harbor, a memo was submitted to FDR (revealed during Freedom of Information Act of 1988: FIA88) outlining a step by step plan in getting Japan to instigate a war with the United States. Looking at history, it is clearly evident that FDR followed this memo to the T in efforts to get America into the war. We mined Japan's harbors, restricting their military abilities against China, which was definately an act a country that was staying out of the war would do, as well as presented them an easy target in Pearl Harbor (a base that was filled with DECOMMISSIONED battleships for the sole purpose of inviting Japan to attack it). There is a lot more, but as I am without a reference, you will need to buy the books yourself. Even back in 1942, the United States was a superpower. We were the wolf, and Japan was the rabbit. No rabbit in it's right mind would EVER attack a wolf. However, if the wolf was attacking the rabbit and it had no other choice, the rabbit would fight back. We cornered Japan and forced their response.

It actually gets worse than this... It comes to a famous decree for "UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER". Unconditional Surrender has only ever been accepted THREE times in the history of the world; Germany's surrender with the Treaty of Versaille in 1918, India's surrender to Great Britain, and Carthaginian surrender to Rome. Carthage surrendered to Rome, and they got massacred, where as the event is now called "The Massacre of Carthage"; India surrendered and they suffered without their own government for centuries; Germany surrendered and went from being a prosperous country to a desolate society that gave rise to the poisonous nationalism that put Hitler in power. What exactly is unconditional surrender? Normally when a country surrenders, they are under the assumption that they are afforded several conditions to the treaty: they are allowed to live, possibly keep their government intact, retain some land and power, as well as lesser penalties for their crimes. Unconditional surrender means, you surrender, and you are given no conditions. You surrender and you follow everything we say, no questions asked... You surrender, and we shoot you anyways... After the Treaty of Versaille; Marshall Fosch, knowing the downsides of unconditional surrender famously said, "This is not a treaty, it is a twenty year truce". He was off by 3 months.

Japan and Germany were both ready to get out of the war. There was a HUGE anti-Hitler underground in Germany, and even Rommel was a member of it. Germans knew that they didn't have a chance to win the war, and they understood that what Hitler was doing was unnacceptable; so they were ready to take him down. The day FDR made his famous demand for unconditional surrender, a British spy with the German underground reported that the entire anti-Hitler organization disappeared at that exact moment. The Germans knew that unconditional surrender destroyed their economy decades earlier, and they wouldn't stand for it again. The Germans figured, if their country was going down the toilet anyways; whether they took out Hitler or not, they may as well support the Genecidal man who was stimulating their economy and bringing some prestige back to German nationalism. If you're going to die anyways, may as well die fighting. The demand for unconditional surrender single handedly extended the war by two years. But FDR wasn't an idiot; he knew it would happen, we wanted it to happen as he wanted to keep us in the war. Proof? The Casablanca Conference. In this conference, FDR and Winston Churchill went over their plans to "rule the world" (THEIR WORDS, not mine); this was one of their plans.

Even more amazing? Japan surrendered 8 months before the Anola Gay dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. FDR turned it down, because Japan refused to surrender unconditionally. But it was an Atomic Bomb; a new technology, something that a country like Japan wasn't ready for. In a time without the internet, without instant communication and surveyance, and in a country without a technological advantage; how long would you expect a country to understand what just happened to them? If you wanted Japan to surrender, you would drop the bomb, then sit back and wait and allow Japan time to understand that they just got fucked in the ass. But FDR didn't do that. Instead he dropped the bomb on Nagisaki two days later, and had plans for 7 more bombs a month for an entire year. We didn't want to give Japan time to survey the damages. Why not? The bombing of Nagisaki is what I consider the official start of the Cold War. Yes, FDR was dead at the time, but he should be the one credited for starting the Cold War, not Truman. Truman simply inherited FDR's plans to "rule the world". Even more interesting? The Casablanca Conference was an meeting between the Allied powers: America, Britain and Russie; but Stalin was not permitted at the meeting... another precurser to the Cold War.

These are all things they dont teach you in History Class.
 
Jaxel said:
Not at all... I hate politics... But I am REALLY into HISTORY. And I'm into TRUE history, not the history that the history books teach. One of the downsides to history books is that history is taught by the victors; so propoganda abounds. Why do I place FDR as the second worst President we have ever had?... dammit, I went to go get those Maybury books and look into them for reference, but I lent them to Bibulus a few years ago, and he lost them... Anyway, I think the biggest reasons is World War II in itself. FDR is famous for saying "I hate war" in his "Day of Infamy" speech after Pearl Harbor; but the real truth is that FDR was purposely using Pearl Harbor as a way to expand his warmongering efforts without looking interventionist.

Months before Pearl Harbor, a memo was submitted to FDR (revealed during Freedom of Information Act of 1988: FIA88) outlining a step by step plan in getting Japan to instigate a war with the United States. Looking at history, it is clearly evident that FDR followed this memo to the T in efforts to get America into the war. We mined Japan's harbors, restricting their military abilities against China, which was definately an act a country that was staying out of the war would do, as well as presented them an easy target in Pearl Harbor (a base that was filled with DECOMMISSIONED battleships for the sole purpose of inviting Japan to attack it). There is a lot more, but as I am without a reference, you will need to buy the books yourself. Even back in 1942, the United States was a superpower. We were the wolf, and Japan was the rabbit. No rabbit in it's right mind would EVER attack a wolf. However, if the wolf was attacking the rabbit and it had no other choice, the rabbit would fight back. We cornered Japan and forced their response.

It actually gets worse than this... It comes to a famous decree for "UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER". Unconditional Surrender has only ever been accepted THREE times in the history of the world; Germany's surrender with the Treaty of Versaille in 1918, India's surrender to Great Britain, and Carthaginian surrender to Rome. Carthage surrendered to Rome, and they got massacred, where as the event is now called "The Massacre of Carthage"; India surrendered and they suffered without their own government for centuries; Germany surrendered and went from being a prosperous country to a desolate society that gave rise to the poisonous nationalism that put Hitler in power. What exactly is unconditional surrender? Normally when a country surrenders, they are under the assumption that they are afforded several conditions to the treaty: they are allowed to live, possibly keep their government intact, retain some land and power, as well as lesser penalties for their crimes. Unconditional surrender means, you surrender, and you are given no conditions. You surrender and you follow everything we say, no questions asked... You surrender, and we shoot you anyways... After the Treaty of Versaille in 1918; Marshall Fosch, knowing the downsides of unconditional surrender famously said, "This is not a treaty, it is a twenty year truce". He was off by 3 months.

Japan and Germany were both ready to get out of the war. There was a HUGE anti-Hitler underground in Germany, and even Rommel was a member of it. Germans knew that they didn't have a chance to win the war, and they understood that what Hitler was doing was unnacceptable; so they were ready to take him down. The day FDR made his famous demand for unconditional surrender, a British spy with the German underground reported that the entire anti-Hitler organization disappeared at that exact moment. The Germans knew that unconditional surrender destroyed their economy decades earlier, and they wouldn't stand for it again. The Germans figured, if their country was going down the toilet anyways; whether they took out Hitler or not, they may as well support the Genecidal man who was stimulating their economy and bringing some prestige back to German nationalism. If you're going to die anyways, may as well die fighting. The demand for unconditional surrender single handedly extended the war by two years. But FDR wasn't an idiot; he knew it would happen, we wanted it to happen as he wanted to keep us in the war. Proof? The Casablanca Conference. In this conference, FDR and Winston Churchill went over their plans to "rule the world" (THEIR WORDS, not mine); this was one of their plans.

Even more amazing? Japan surrendered 8 months before the Anola Gay dropped the bomb on Hiroshima. FDR turned it down, because Japan refused to surrender unconditionally. But it was an Atomic Bomb; a new technology, something that a country like Japan wasn't ready for. In a time without the internet, without instant communication and surveyance, and in a country without a technological advantage; how long would you expect a country to understand what just happened to them? If you wanted Japan to surrender, you would drop the bomb, then sit back and wait and allow Japan time to understand that they just got fucked in the ass. But FDR didn't do that. Instead he dropped the bomb on Nagisaki two days later, and had plans for 7 more bombs a month for an entire year. We didn't want to give Japan time to survey the damages. Why not? The bombing of Nagisaki is what I consider the official start of the Cold War. Yes, FDR was dead at the time, but he should be the one credited for starting the Cold War, not Truman. Truman simply inherited FDR's plans to "rule the world". Even more interesting? The Casablanca Conference was an meeting between the Allied powers: America, Britain and Russie; but Stalin was not permitted at the meeting... another precurser to the Cold War.

These are all things they dont teach you in History Class.
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Wow your definently right about that, I would have never realized this let alone study it. I think i'll save this for reference material.
 
Jaxel said:
Months before Pearl Harbor, a memo was submitted to FDR (revealed during Freedom of Information Act of 1988: FIA88) outlining a step by step plan in getting Japan to instigate a war with the United States. Looking at history, it is clearly evident that FDR followed this memo to the T in efforts to get America into the war. We mined Japan's harbors, restricting their military abilities against China, which was definately an act a country that was staying out of the war would do, as well as presented them an easy target in Pearl Harbor (a base that was filled with DECOMMISSIONED battleships for the sole purpose of inviting Japan to attack it). There is a lot more, but as I am without a reference, you will need to buy the books yourself. Even back in 1942, the United States was a superpower. We were the wolf, and Japan was the rabbit. No rabbit in it's right mind would EVER attack a wolf. However, if the wolf was attacking the rabbit and it had no other choice, the rabbit would fight back. We cornered Japan and forced their response.

It actually gets worse than this... It comes to a famous decree for "UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER". Unconditional Surrender has only ever been accepted THREE times in the history of the world; Germany's surrender with the Treaty of Versaille in 1918, India's surrender to Great Britain, and Carthaginian surrender to Rome. Carthage surrendered to Rome, and they got massacred, where as the event is now called "The Massacre of Carthage"; India surrendered and they suffered without their own government for centuries; Germany surrendered and went from being a prosperous country to a desolate society that gave rise to the poisonous nationalism that put Hitler in power. What exactly is unconditional surrender? Normally when a country surrenders, they are under the assumption that they are afforded several conditions to the treaty: they are allowed to live, possibly keep their government intact, retain some land and power, as well as lesser penalties for their crimes. Unconditional surrender means, you surrender, and you are given no conditions. You surrender and you follow everything we say, no questions asked... You surrender, and we shoot you anyways... After the Treaty of Versaille; Marshall Fosch, knowing the downsides of unconditional surrender famously said, "This is not a treaty, it is a twenty year truce". He was off by 3 months.


These are all things they dont teach you in History Class.
Click to expand...

I was told that the Treaty of Versailles was not nearly the effect on Germany. The United States gave Germany loans for much of its deficits and they never paid us back. The land that they lost was not that major and the smaller military may have actually had helped Germany build up for WW2 since they were all turned into trained officers. I actually heard that the push to Nazism was actually based on the lack of a more harsh treaty that would have been in place if there was no influence from the War without Victory point from Woodrow Wilson.

That stuff during WW2 is harsh. If that memo proves intent, then that means that this was a major cynical plot that started much of current failures in US foreign policy. Though the origins of the Cold War started as soon as WW1 though. I do not blame FDR for that. We actually invaded Russia in 1917 to stop the Bolsheviks.
 
wait a minute im reading through this again and if i read through this correctly then FDR along with others pushed Japan little by little to start a war making it look like Japan did it?
 
Invading Russia in 1917 would not be a "Cold" war. I say the bombing of Nagisaki was the start of the Cold War because it was a showing to Russie that we have more bombs and we're willing to use them, so don't fuck with us. And whoever told you that the Treaty of Versailles didn't have a major effect on Germany as a country is exactly the type of history I am talking about. People teach history as they were taught, and if they were taught wrong and full of propoganda, they will propogate these lies.

The Treaty of Versailles declared Germany as the SOLE responsibility for WWI. Germany lost pretty much all military might in Europe, an area that has required military power for several millenia. They lost large portions of their land, which restricted their economic and trade freedom. Not to mention the insane REPERATIONS that were estimated would take Germany approximately 60 years to repay. Basically any economic progress that was made in Germany, as well as textiles, would be exported out of the country and given to France and Britain for 60 years. Because of this, the German economy became so weak that quality of life for it's people would be equivalent to the ghettos. Even John Keynes called the treaty a "Carthaginian Peace".

While yes, Germany wasn't under military occupation, the economic struggle gave the Nationalist Socialist Party an oppurtunity to come to power. They weren't a military organization, they were a political group. All they had to do was speak out against the Treaty of Versailles and promise a better life for every German. The Treaty of Versailles is the cause behind World War II, without a doubt.
 
I did not know the information in that book, but it isn't unreasonable. I know a bit about WW2, but there tends to be things that aren't released for everyone to know everywhere. It is clear that FDR always saw war with Japan.

I think purposely leaving Pearl Habor defenseless seems like a conspiracy theory though. I still think of it as an oversight of our defenses. We defended areas by the Philippines expecting an attack. It was clear that our empire would get in the way of Japan's movements, and I can believe that both sides were aware of the situation before the attack.

I can definitely believe that the United States was pushing for war with Japan. There was a good chance that they might have had to deal with the United States in its goal for southern Asia.
 
So the Treaty wasn't really a treaty at all, and it started a war? Jaxel you know your history, i do this but more with religion not history. Also i would like to add Happy birthday and let me be the first one to say it!
 
Jaxel said:
Invading Russia in 1917 would not be a "Cold" war. I say the bombing of Nagisaki was the start of the Cold War because it was a showing to Russie that we have more bombs and we're willing to use them, so don't fuck with us. And whoever told you that the Treaty of Versailles didn't have a major effect on Germany as a country is exactly the type of history I am talking about. People teach history as they were taught, and if they were taught wrong and full of propoganda, they will propogate these lies.

The Treaty of Versailles declared Germany as the SOLE responsibility for WWI. Germany lost pretty much all military might in Europe, an area that has required military power for several millenia. They lost large portions of their land, which restricted their economic and trade freedom. Not to mention the insane REPERATIONS that were estimated would take Germany approximately 60 years to repay. Basically any economic progress that was made in Germany, as well as textiles, would be exported out of the country and given to France and Britain for 60 years. Because of this, the German economy became so weak that quality of life for it's people would be equivalent to the ghettos. Even John Keynes called the treaty a "Carthaginian Peace".

While yes, Germany wasn't under military occupation, the economic struggle gave the Nationalist Socialist Party an oppurtunity to come to power. They weren't a military organization, they were a political group. All they had to do was speak out against the Treaty of Versailles and promise a better life for every German. The Treaty of Versailles is the cause behind World War II, without a doubt.
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I agree that it was, but I personally think that if the Treaty of Versailles was tougher, I actually think that this wouldn't have happened. If I recall, Germany was limited to an army of 100,000. Germany was stomped enough to warrant embarrassment. I was actually told that the USA was partially to blame for allowing Germany enough to be able to build up as quickly as they did. Germany never repaid the reparations and the United States gave them loans for most of it.

I could be wrong, but the United States helped Germany a great deal after WW1 since Wilson tried to make the Treaty of Versailles as soft on Germany as possible. This was also coupled with the fact that the USA was totally played by Britain in WW1.

Wasn't there a Communist scare back before WW2 though. I am not saying that 1917 was the official start, but I think that even without the bomb, it would have started. The rivalry and discontent was already there.
 
There was a Communist Scare in the early 20th Century before and during WW1. I am not sure how it started exactly. I believe it was more of a response to Marxism itself, but I really don't know where it started in the USA.

I am actually expecting Jaxel to fill that one out. I know some history, but I am more Political Science and Rhetoric than History.
 
Well technically, Britain hoodwinked America into Europe's war in 1801. Ever since then, America has been fighting Europe's Wars for them. How did it happen? The Barbary Wars that the Marines so gladly proclaim in their Hymn, "From the Halls of Montezuma... To the shores of Tripoli". What were the Barbary Wars about? Piracy. The waterways to the Barbary Coast were under the reign of Britain, so all trade in the area was under taxation by the British government. American companies too were trading the areas, and they were paying the taxes to Britain. But what happened is that ships in the area were under siege by the Barbary Pirates; it was an issue between Europe and the pirates; and the American government had nothing to do with it. American companies were starting to pull out of the area because the cost was too high having to deal with Pirates.

So how did Britain hoodwink the American government to fight their battle against the Barbary Pirates for them? The British Government told the American companies (and ONLY them) that they would get free TAX-FREE reign over the Barbary Coast. They were free to trade without having to pay anything to the British; an offer the private american companies couldn't refuse. That kept American citizens in the area. Unfortunately, due to the upset balance of power by Napolean, by taking out the Knights Hospitaliers (very much the way the United States has created an upset balance of power in Iraq by taking out Hussein), the Pirates were growing in power. It wasn't long before some american ships were captured and held hostage. However, it was Jefferson's and America's policy to never negotiate with terrorists.

So led to the FIRST TIME EVER in the history of the United States, where the Marines were used to fighting for a private company unrelated to the American Government. As we also know, it wasn't the last time. Our military has been fighting for the needs of private individuals ever since, and we were caught hook, line and sinker into a war that has been going on for over a thousand years...

Speaking of that, my FAVORITE Maybury book...

Amazon.com: The Thousand Year War in the Mideast: How It Affects You Today (An Uncle Eric Book): Richard J. Maybury, Jane A. Williams: Books
 
I'm glad you are putting all these links. This is going up with Huntington's Clash of Civilizations on my Christmas list.
 
Yeah... unfortunately, Maybury really only has 4 books worth reading... Most of them are financial or political books and they really dont interest me. His four books worth reading; in the order you should be reading them:

1. Ancient Rome: How It Affects You Today (written before 9/11)
- A book about how every government strives to be the next Rise of the Roman empire. So much so that the German Empire was called the "Third Reich"... or Third Rise of the Roman Empire. America would of course by the Fourth Rise of the Roman Empire. It also explains the roots of Fascism and how the famous "Roman Peace Era" was actually the bloodiest time in Roman history. All his history books essentially stem from this one; so its the most important one, even if his ideas aren't as fleshed out yet.

2. The Thousand Year War in the Mideast: How It Affects You Today (written before 9/11)
3. World War I: The Rest of the Story and How It Affects You Today
4. World War II: The Rest of the Story and How It Affects You Today

He also has a spiralbind book called "Pearl Harbor : Roosevelt's Secret Treason", but its way way out of print so you'll never find it. I read his quarterly reports where he discusses finances, politics and how world and american government are repeating the same mistakes over and over and failing to learn from history. He's pretty accurate and its really amazing how he predicts even the smallest changes in the financial industry before it happens.
 
If only the world adopted my bacon plan after ww1 everything would have been avoided. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 
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