ShaolinTiger86
[13] Hero
This.
Raph confirmed as SCV Nightmare :D
- Thread starter Gatsu
- Start date
Forgon
[12] Conqueror
While I am already convinced and have provided my speculation and/or evidence on the subject, I am actually far more interested in seeing if any of the voice files for the cut story content are on the SCV disk. Hopefully a method to opening the voice files will be found by the community, it may help end the debate once and for all. I would also love if some one would find a way to talk to Raphael's voice actor and ask if he ever voiced the character Dumas and/or Nightmare for SCV. Many say it is him as Nightmare but I would like a source from the actor himself.
--Forgon
Pyrrus
[14] Master
I thought I would add to this.. :O
you can CLEARLY see "human" skin :O So yeah..~ I hope I benefited the Raph=NM theory :D
you can CLEARLY see "human" skin :O So yeah..~ I hope I benefited the Raph=NM theory :D
Forgon
[12] Conqueror
Actually, in character creation, if you read about 10-20 pages back (maybe even less), you can view Nightmare without his helmet and his model, hair, and hair color are identical to Raphael. The only difference is his eyes, his skin complexion, and the fact he wears Dumas's mask by default in all cases. Thank you though for adding visual evidence.
--Forgon
Pyrrus
[14] Master
Yeah, I know but thanks anyways ^_^
Forgon
[12] Conqueror
You are welcome. Forgive me, I can never tell when some one is a new face or not in a thread, especially when they only make one or two posts every other page.
--Forgon
Pyrrus
[14] Master
Perfectly understandable~I usually just read through the thread til I fancy something and make a post about it so yeah x) ~
- Moderator
- #328
WindupSkeleton
[14] Master
Shining Decopon confirmed as Nightmare. Discuss.
Bastet
[12] Conqueror
That explains why Tira was around!
Forgon
[12] Conqueror
- Moderator
- #331
WindupSkeleton
[14] Master
Is there? I thought he just called himself Shining Decopon. My bad .-.
Sett
[14] Master
Forgon
[12] Conqueror
Ninjaguy446
[14] Master
Uh, hi there Forgon. I had a question about your theory with Viola regaining her memories and Zwei trying to kill her. I was wondering, because don't you think Zwei would have more loyalty to Viola than trying to kill her when he finds out (or she confides in him) that she is a malfested? I mean like, I'm assuming that they have been together traveling for awhile and he could have most certainly developed feelings for her. I just don't think it's fathomable that he'd try to kill her. Maybe be a little more wary and distant, but surely not take her life. Your thoughts?
darkwings13
[14] Master
Personally, I believe that when Zwei and Viola have their battle, she's on Raph/Dumas/Nighty's side and this most likely takes place near the end of the story with the whole battle on Hilde's stage. Zwei wants to stop Dumas but Viola will stop him because she's loyal to her father. At the same time, she's reluctant on fighting him since he did save her life and they've been travelling companions. As for him, when he says, "Forgive me.. Viola." I think it's more likely a reference to how he regrets having to fight her to get to Dumas but there's no other way. But I don't think he'll kill her.
Anyway, I notice something that might just be pure coincidence. The symbol on Raphael's back on most of his clothes...
![[animepaper.net]picture-standard-anime-soul-calibur-raphael-191411-ethermind-preview-9f5c41a9.jpg](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi-f.animepaper.net%2Fthumbnails%2Fpreview%2F191411%2F1%2F%5Banimepaper.net%5Dpicture-standard-anime-soul-calibur-raphael-191411-ethermind-preview-9f5c41a9.jpg&hash=0b47bc8d95742a1afc13ea7cf5f2e5a8)
looks very similar to the coat of arms of House Keglevic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Keglević
An important figure to note is Georg Keglevich who was a general and such. He was imprisoned by the archduke Matthias who is Rudolf II brother's. As you all know, Dumas is on good relations with Rudolf. I'm ASSUMMING that Dumas is Georg Keglevich. Not sure how trustworthy wikipedia is but here's a part in the wiki about Rudolf that caught my attention.
Matthias by 1606 forged a difficult peace with the Hungarian rebels (Peace of Vienna) and the Turks (Peace of Zsitvatorok). Rudolf was angry with his brother's concessions, which he saw as giving away too much in order to further Matthias' hold on power. So Rudolf prepared to start a new war with the Turks. But Matthias rallied support from the disaffected Hungarians and forced Rudolf to give up the crowns of Hungary, Austria, and Moravia to him. Matthias imprisoned Georg Keglević who was the Commander-in-chief, General, Vice-Ban of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia and since 1602 Baron in Transylvania, but soon left him free again. --->From wikipedia as well. So not 100% trustworthy.
The time starts at 1607 in SCV so I assume the war took place then when Rudolf got angry with his bro. Another thing is, Dumas is the ruler of Hungary but historically, Matthias will rule it in 1608. So I'm guessing that after Dumas's defeat at zwei's hand...
1)He got imprisoned and turned back into Raph and was left free.
So my theory for now that suggests Dumas is Raph. And that PS did their historical research. Feel free to point out anything that doesn't make sense. I could be overthinking this and I'm sorry for relying on wikipedia but I don't major in history. I major in chem.
Anyway, I notice something that might just be pure coincidence. The symbol on Raphael's back on most of his clothes...
An important figure to note is Georg Keglevich who was a general and such. He was imprisoned by the archduke Matthias who is Rudolf II brother's. As you all know, Dumas is on good relations with Rudolf. I'm ASSUMMING that Dumas is Georg Keglevich. Not sure how trustworthy wikipedia is but here's a part in the wiki about Rudolf that caught my attention.
Matthias by 1606 forged a difficult peace with the Hungarian rebels (Peace of Vienna) and the Turks (Peace of Zsitvatorok). Rudolf was angry with his brother's concessions, which he saw as giving away too much in order to further Matthias' hold on power. So Rudolf prepared to start a new war with the Turks. But Matthias rallied support from the disaffected Hungarians and forced Rudolf to give up the crowns of Hungary, Austria, and Moravia to him. Matthias imprisoned Georg Keglević who was the Commander-in-chief, General, Vice-Ban of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia and since 1602 Baron in Transylvania, but soon left him free again. --->From wikipedia as well. So not 100% trustworthy.
The time starts at 1607 in SCV so I assume the war took place then when Rudolf got angry with his bro. Another thing is, Dumas is the ruler of Hungary but historically, Matthias will rule it in 1608. So I'm guessing that after Dumas's defeat at zwei's hand...
1)He got imprisoned and turned back into Raph and was left free.
So my theory for now that suggests Dumas is Raph. And that PS did their historical research. Feel free to point out anything that doesn't make sense. I could be overthinking this and I'm sorry for relying on wikipedia but I don't major in history. I major in chem.
- Moderator
- #336
WindupSkeleton
[14] Master
ChaosK
[13] Hero
I-i-is this a damp smiley? GENIUS!
Forgon
[12] Conqueror
It is extremely hard to tell. While I am honored that you are personally addressing your question to me, I feel twisted on the issue. One thing that we need to note is that the special dialogue between characters only addresses the relationship and hints at the implications of the timeline. In essence, we can use them for factual basis but only on theoretical terms (as a "what if" scenario).
When Patroklos battles Elysium, he responds with misunderstanding of why his mother is fighting him and acts like pre-Alpha Pat. This indicates we are to assume that this is a "what if" battle from when Patroklos had been looking for his sister and Elysium would appear to battle him. Similarly, a battle between Patroklos and Pyyrha Omega has Patroklos act in disgust and disbelief at Pyyrha, similarly to how story mode plays out. These interactions obviously change with Alpha Patroklos. However these "fights" never play out in canon, so they are completely hypothetical.
In contrast, we know Viola suddenly is absent from the battle with Nightmare and had supposedly been, "An important character in the story mode," which means a large part of her role was cut from the content. We can also gather from her english biography that she regained her memories during the game's story. However, ZWEI despises malfested and Graf Dumas. That is an absolute. The problem with absolutes is when challenged, you have to either abide by your principles or break under pressure.
ZWEI may have felt obligated to destroy her, or maybe he felt guilty about it. Perhaps he felt it was better for her? A mercy kill? Maybe he was conflicted during it. I have no doubt that in a fighting game series like this, where the available plot points (from the previous paragraph) would have led to a fight and would have had similar circumstances to the versus mode fight (similar to Pat and Omega). However, there is another aspect of this too. What if Viola instigated the confrontation.
Let us examine Amy's character. She is a character who has been hurt by the world practically since she was born. She was an orphan, she was a French riffraff, and she grew callous toward the world as a result of it. Her defense mechanism against the pain was spite, pessimism and indifference. Nothing could visibly bother her, anything that would she would keep locked away inside. In this way, she felt safe. Now, Viola has been Amy for who knows how long. Her entire "life" now she has been some one else, she has lived as another. She suffered a similar situation but Raphael is not who saved her this time, ZWEI did.
Raphael was Amy's only loved one, the only thing she cared about. If Viola suddenly spontaneously regains her memory (I theorize that the orb is related to Astral Chaos and the two swords' conflict, and reacts as so), then she will be in quite a predicament. Suddenly, Viola will be Viola and Amy, two separate lifes converging together and smashing into one. What is Amy's immediate reaction? It would be the fact that some one got behind her shell, her defense, the one protection from herself and they went right through it. Something that was so important to her was just breached and she was helpless (and ignorant) of it.
On the other hand, Viola has found the only person she can trust from the streets, a person who understands her and protects her. They were partner, friends, trusted comrades. Perhaps Amy was wrong? Its an identity crisis, the world Amy locked herself up from is so apparent known to Viola. She sees both sides, she cannot undo that. Who she sides with? I would hope Raphael, but I am biased towards the antagonistic Amy and Raphael pair than the anti-hero partners in crime gig.
In reality, either one could have fanned the flames of confrontation or perhaps they both did, for their own reasons. If ZWEI was too loyal to do it, Viola did it because Amy cannot let anyone into her protective bubble. If so, Viola would dislike this. Its like struggling with two different people in one person. On the other hand, if ZWEI ignited the confrontation, I am almost certain Viola would know why and ZWEI would probably feel obligated to destroy Viola, a malfested, who he had join Siegfried and Hilde. For all he knows, Viola may be a double agent for Nightmare or a sleeper agent who's amnesia was the key to getting her inside.
Ultimately, I feel a conflict would have been instigated by ZWEI due to Viola's last attempts at reason in versus mode, "Do We have to fight," with the almost cold response from ZWEI, "Yeah, I guess we do," which is accompanied by the taunt, "Curiosity killed the cat," which implies it was ZWEI's move. Similarly, "Forgive me... Viola," implies perhaps regret to kill Viola but willingness or need to kill Amy, should Viola have chosen her side and wanted to leave to search for Raphael immediately. Also, it should be noted that Viola's taunt implies ZWEI learned about it by accident either by spying on her or just overhearing her. The only reason I doubt Viola would confide in him is because of the volatile conflict within her.
In contrast, we know Viola suddenly is absent from the battle with Nightmare and had supposedly been, "An important character in the story mode," which means a large part of her role was cut from the content. We can also gather from her english biography that she regained her memories during the game's story. However, ZWEI despises malfested and Graf Dumas. That is an absolute. The problem with absolutes is when challenged, you have to either abide by your principles or break under pressure.
ZWEI may have felt obligated to destroy her, or maybe he felt guilty about it. Perhaps he felt it was better for her? A mercy kill? Maybe he was conflicted during it. I have no doubt that in a fighting game series like this, where the available plot points (from the previous paragraph) would have led to a fight and would have had similar circumstances to the versus mode fight (similar to Pat and Omega). However, there is another aspect of this too. What if Viola instigated the confrontation.
Let us examine Amy's character. She is a character who has been hurt by the world practically since she was born. She was an orphan, she was a French riffraff, and she grew callous toward the world as a result of it. Her defense mechanism against the pain was spite, pessimism and indifference. Nothing could visibly bother her, anything that would she would keep locked away inside. In this way, she felt safe. Now, Viola has been Amy for who knows how long. Her entire "life" now she has been some one else, she has lived as another. She suffered a similar situation but Raphael is not who saved her this time, ZWEI did.
Raphael was Amy's only loved one, the only thing she cared about. If Viola suddenly spontaneously regains her memory (I theorize that the orb is related to Astral Chaos and the two swords' conflict, and reacts as so), then she will be in quite a predicament. Suddenly, Viola will be Viola and Amy, two separate lifes converging together and smashing into one. What is Amy's immediate reaction? It would be the fact that some one got behind her shell, her defense, the one protection from herself and they went right through it. Something that was so important to her was just breached and she was helpless (and ignorant) of it.
On the other hand, Viola has found the only person she can trust from the streets, a person who understands her and protects her. They were partner, friends, trusted comrades. Perhaps Amy was wrong? Its an identity crisis, the world Amy locked herself up from is so apparent known to Viola. She sees both sides, she cannot undo that. Who she sides with? I would hope Raphael, but I am biased towards the antagonistic Amy and Raphael pair than the anti-hero partners in crime gig.
In reality, either one could have fanned the flames of confrontation or perhaps they both did, for their own reasons. If ZWEI was too loyal to do it, Viola did it because Amy cannot let anyone into her protective bubble. If so, Viola would dislike this. Its like struggling with two different people in one person. On the other hand, if ZWEI ignited the confrontation, I am almost certain Viola would know why and ZWEI would probably feel obligated to destroy Viola, a malfested, who he had join Siegfried and Hilde. For all he knows, Viola may be a double agent for Nightmare or a sleeper agent who's amnesia was the key to getting her inside.
Ultimately, I feel a conflict would have been instigated by ZWEI due to Viola's last attempts at reason in versus mode, "Do We have to fight," with the almost cold response from ZWEI, "Yeah, I guess we do," which is accompanied by the taunt, "Curiosity killed the cat," which implies it was ZWEI's move. Similarly, "Forgive me... Viola," implies perhaps regret to kill Viola but willingness or need to kill Amy, should Viola have chosen her side and wanted to leave to search for Raphael immediately. Also, it should be noted that Viola's taunt implies ZWEI learned about it by accident either by spying on her or just overhearing her. The only reason I doubt Viola would confide in him is because of the volatile conflict within her.
--Forgon
- Moderator
- #339
WindupSkeleton
[14] Master
Ah, yeah I've been using it since I started. I think Oof tried stealing it at some point.
I tip my hat for your use of my favourite word. =/:}D
Ninjaguy446
[14] Master
:O My mind has been blown. I think you are very right about the identity crisis thing and power struggle between Amy and Viola. And yes, I also believe that Zwei most likely found out by accident due to her taunt. IMO Project Soul has some real potential for either the next games storymode, or storymode dlc (lolno we all know that's not happening). I mean, Patroklos and Pyrrha are done for the story. They had their tale. If there is a SCVI and THEY are the main characters, I will literally pull out my hair. What else can Pat and Pyrrha do? Nothing. Because their conflict has been resolved. The next main characters (if they decided to attempt to do CG scenes again and have the story like SCV again) should be Viola, Zwei, and Raphael. This would be a good set of protagonist (or antagonist if you will) because they have a great slate to draw the story upon. But, given we have 3 mimics and 1/4th of the original story currently, I wouldn't doubt they go back to arcade endings for each character.