Raphael General Discussion / Q&A

[Hudathan]

I think pretty much every character (that i've seen) can eat him alive.

If you actually believe that then you're preventing yourself from improving.

Also, this thread has been filled with so much blatantly wrong information that I'm surprised we haven't cleaned it all up yet.

Raph doesn't do damage? Clean/counter-hit SE B is 40% life off a long range move that gives +3 on block and costs 25% meter. 22B is 30% life off a long range move that's safe on block and costs 25% meter. 6BB BE is 25% life off a long range 12 frame counter-hit and costs 25% meter. Can't land his combos? Player skill.

Raph doesn't have anything to stop step? Close range 2A, 3A, 6A, 4A, 8A+B and even 1K. Mid range 22K, 4K, AA. Long range 22A, 33A, 66A. Don't know what to press when the opponent moves around and keep whiffing verticals? Player skill.

Raph loses to every character in the game? Videos are already up from week 1 tournaments and gatherings where Raph was winning. Kowtow was beating people, I can link the Xanadu stream where I was beating people. And I can guarantee if all the other real Raph players here recorded all their matches you will see Raph beat every character in the game. Can't beat anybody online or offline? Player skill.

piggy is right, character forums are for constructive discussions, not complaints. You can call it what you want but it's still complaining at the end of the day. Players who are currently enjoying success with the character are trying to give tips on his strengths and how to best apply them, but every post is a knee-jerk response about how Raph isn't how you want him to be. Here is a fact about fighting games: they are not supposed to be balanced around what you consider is proper or fair. The point of a competitive game is for players to take a set of often brand new rules and learn how to best manipulate them to their own advantage. That's the kind of skill set which allows a player to succeed in not only games but any competitive activity. This refusal to adapt and learn represents everything that is against the fighting game mentality.

 

[DigitalCount]

Okay, so Prep K and SE K are both pretty steppable. (I apologize, I actually did mean Prep K, that was what shocked me.) Like, he stepped all the way to Raph's back. Ouch.

But, as has been said, now I know not to use Prep K when I'm trying to catch step.

Yikes. Seeing that video again hurt me in my chest. But obviously Prep A is available. Not complaining, it was just surprising to see happen, and now I know it's a consistent thing.

Also, Hudathan, I don't think that's really a fair assessment of the discussion.

 

[Mandritti]

If it was not fair, then something was unfair. If you could say it was not fair, you could identify what is unfair.
This isn't like he said a bunch of things that make no sense and someone going "That doesn't sound true at all"; you said it's not fair.
If you actually meant about the summary itself and not fairness, then you were saying his description is lacking somehow - but not that it makes no sense, since you wrote "not really a fair xxx" which means 'kinda sorta'.
In that case still, some actual omission or misstep would be apparent to you behind your statement. You could, in order to have the next post not be a vacuous "plz explain" request, provide that omission, flaw, or unfair point.

That is, from my point of view, stating that something is not a fair whatever without substantiating that statement, in a tiny way, is unfair.

(Thx for the proof Jodorowsky.)

 

[Real_Bojack]

It's not a bad game, it just feels rather flat.

No one is twisting your arm to play it.

 

[DigitalCount]

I understand what you mean. Let me try to explain.

As a semi-new player, I'm trying to learn things, and had it not been for the last few pages, I'd have thought the Prep K thing was a fluke. Thanks to this, I now know never to use that move. It seems that I'm not the only one to benefit from that video posted.

Furthermore, the general thrust of his post was that if a Raphael player isn't winning, it's because that player is deficient, rather than the character forcing you to work harder than the opponent would have to work playing against Raphael. With the exception of 22B (which I agree is a great move, so glad I'm using it) I feel like I have to be much riskier than my opponent when it comes to netting results. So far, ranging and punishes seem to be Raphael's strong points, so at times it feels like if I don't bait my opponent into making a mistake, I will not be able to win.

It's not that I'm not willing to learn (I play Lee in Tekken; I know what an uphill battle is).

 

[KowtowRobinson]

I don't see how it's fun or easy. Nightmare has everything going for him: speed, range, damage. He can throw from a ridiculous distance as well and has that annoying burst.

I'm about to be kind of a dick here. Tune me out if you want, but someone needs to say it at this point.

I eat tournament level Nightmare players for fucking breakfast with Raph, real talk. You're not experienced enough or good enough to speak on character balance issues, period. People propping Nightmare up as some top tier force of nature is a surefire sign that they need better fundamentals, and a better grasp of how to study a character's weaknesses. Right now, you're severely lacking in both categories, and straight up you're not good at this game. So stop talking about who's under/overpowered, you don't have a clue.

Don't know how much more clear I can be. You do not know how to play this game. And we can't help if you if you don't get over your negativity. Hate to act jaded, but you wouldn't be the first, and you sure as shit won't be the last to pull all this crap. Run in our forums, vent and whine, and then quit the game without taking any of our advice to heart.

You're not gonna get anywhere until you understand how bad you suck. The longer you continue to think that you understand how this game is designed, the more you're gonna keep yourself in a rut. You have to own your suckiness, instead of passing the buck. Buck passers don't go far in this game.

Hudathan: Wuht and I could start cleaning things up, but I'm always hesitant to remove posts unless they're blatantly rulebreaking. Whining isn't technically against the rules, it's just obnoxious.



I say that from here on out, we may look at keeping some of this under control. But being that this is contained to the Raph GD thread for the most part, I'm not going to go back and delete old posts.

 

[Hudathan]

Hudathan: Wuht and I could start cleaning things up, but I'm always hesitant to remove posts unless they're blatantly rulebreaking. Whining isn't technically against the rules, it's just obnoxious.

The problem is that someone new could be coming onto these boards intending to learn the game, but all they see are pages of non-constructive complaints filled with completely erroneous claims. It's not just annoying to those of us who are already here and know better, it's dangerous to those who are new and might not know better.

 

[ghost_whistler]

I'm about to be kind of a dick here. Tune me out if you want, but someone needs to say it at this point.

I eat tournament level Nightmare players for fucking breakfast with Raph, real talk. You're not experienced enough or good enough to speak on character balance issues, period. People propping Nightmare up as some top tier force of nature is a surefire sign that they need better fundamentals, and a better grasp of how to study a character's weaknesses. Right now, you're severely lacking in both categories, and straight up you're not good at this game. So stop talking about who's under/overpowered, you don't have a clue.

Don't know how much more clear I can be. You do not know how to play this game. And we can't help if you if you don't get over your negativity. Hate to act jaded, but you wouldn't be the first, and you sure as shit won't be the last to pull all this crap. Run in our forums, vent and whine, and then quit the game without taking any of our advice to heart.

You're not gonna get anywhere until you understand how bad you suck. The longer you continue to think that you understand how this game is designed, the more you're gonna keep yourself in a rut. You have to own your suckiness, instead of passing the buck. Buck passers don't go far in this game.

Hudathan: Wuht and I could start cleaning things up, but I'm always hesitant to remove posts unless they're blatantly rulebreaking. Whining isn't technically against the rules, it's just obnoxious.



I say that from here on out, we may look at keeping some of this under control. But being that this is contained to the Raph GD thread for the most part, I'm not going to go back and delete old posts.

Is this advice or is this a rant?

Telling me that you eat nightmare players for breakfast tells me nothing.

Telling me that 'i don't know how bad I suck' tells me nothing.

If you can't explain how then, yes in my opinion, you are being a dick.

 

[ghost_whistler]

Do you not see what you are doing?

"This is hopeless"

It will always be hopeless so long as all you do is just tell me how much I don't get it. You aren't telling me anything. You are simply telling me that I don't get it/that i suck/that i'm stupid/that i'm this or that. Thanks, I appreciate the constant stream of unprovoked ad hom attacks. Now how about actually telling me something useful? You are doing exactly the same as he is, and now you are blaming me for 'ruining' this thread? That kind of passive aggressive nonsense is childish. This thread isn't ruined at all; it's a discussion. If you don't like other people having a different opinion then either a) dont ever go online or b) actually answer the question, instead of posting constant abuse.

I have never once claimed to be a great player, not once. But that is no excuse for resorting to ad hom attacks that don't actually help. You are doing exactly that which you complain at me about: 'ruining' this thread. If you can't actualy explain how, then what else are you doing but the same thing?

 

[ghost_whistler]

No, we discussed raphael's moves. You have not once said what strategy to use against nightmare.
You apologise and in the same post then accuse me of giving the forum a bad name! So what exactly are you apologising for then?
Nightmare is very prominent online. Lots of people with crazy w/l ratios are playing him (either him or mitsurugi). The only characters i mentioned were Mitsurugi and dealing with someone like Maxi beause of his endless quick combos.
Either you want to engage with people or you don't. If not, then don't allow people to join your forum. I have not once been rude to you or anyone else and if you are this exercised by simple forum posts then you are being ridiculous. This thread is a general discussion of a character with significant weaknesses, except discussing those weaknesses is somehow only allowed within prescribed limits. Why don't you moan at the guy quoting the videos above saying he's going to quit the character? No, instead you decide that because it's easy for you to beat nightmare it must therefore be easy for everyone else otherwise they are just 'negative'.
I'm not interesting in reading someone else's self help guru talk, i'm interested in finding out how to beat powerful characters like nightmare.

 

[piggy]

What Kowtow was trying to explain is that Nightmare isn't a terrible matchup for Raph - he has played it enough to know this, and has a lot of experience to back up his findings. Nightmare does a lot of damage when he hits, yes, but he has a lot of highs that can be TC'd, strings that can be 6BB BEd (for 20% damage, as Hudathan pointed out), but he has put in the work to understand the matchup. What he is also trying to explain is that you need a lot (A LOT) of experience in a game (and a game series) to really understand tiers. Players like Kowtow, Hudathan, and I have been involved in this series at a national tournament level for a long time. Others like Bojack, Chu-fye and others have been around on and off as well, and all of these people would like nothing more than to help you improve with Raph. We can't get a lot of time in against every character. This is why you see me posting a lot about Pyrrha, cause I play against her most, and Mitsu - trying to point out where you can take advantage of certain setups so that everybody will know, grow, and improve.

We're Raph players, all of us here. We all know that Raph isn't the strongest, most broken character in the game; however, we're gonna put in the time to figure out as much as we can so we can play him against the best of the best when the time comes.

TL;DR - we would much rather see constructive posts like "Since every option out of prep can be stepped until SE A can come out, here are some other options" instead of "OMG Raph is too linear and doesn't do any damage, ghey!".

Finally, I was thinking about creating a QQ MOAR thread into which we could move all the teary-eyed posts, which could stay on as a venting type thread, cause we'll all have those times where we wanna say "WTF - i10 hori(ish) mids are weak sauce" and we could put it there, where it can be read, or ignored, but not interfere with productive chat.

 

[ghost_whistler]

That's great, but again it's too slow. Every time he is either blocked or stepped or too slow. Those moves are just not up to the job. Some one like nightmare just bullrushes you and beats you down every time. That's why these people playing him have completely out of kilter w/l ratios. The crouch moves are too slow, 22b is just stepped every time and any kind of straight attack lik bbb is just blocked leaving you massively unsafe. That's not including the fact that all his moves have zero priority over everything else. I don't think I can imagine a weaker character right now.

TL;DR - we would much rather see constructive posts like "Since every option out of prep can be stepped until SE A can come out, here are some other options" instead of "OMG Raph is too linear and doesn't do any damage, ghey!".

But that isn't how i've posted, you are twisting what I'm saying using the word 'gay' like that.
I don't post to say what other people want to hear in any forum, I'm certainly not going to start here.

I don't need years of experience and a special degree from the cool kids club to validate my observation (especially when they are, more orless, shared by everyone else here). Raphael is extremely weak. You miss my point: i didn't say you couldn't win with him. You could win with any character so long as they have even the most basic attack. The point is that in order to do so you have to have perfect timing/skill/whatever - way beyond your opponent. That is a flawed approach to game design. It's no good saying characters shouldn't be balanced - yes they should. That isn't the same as saying they should all be the same either. There are precious few situations where he has the advantage - and this doesn't take into account the person you are playing against: you can have all the skills in the world, but if your opponent has likewise then you are still fighting with a subpar character who is almost always at a disadvantage. I'm sorry if my opinion upsets you emotionally but that's too bad, quite honestly. I'm getting very tired of trying to compete with a character that has so many disadvantages and it's extremely discouraging to put time into a game (and it's just a video game, not a career - nor should it be) to find out that your favourite character stinks.

 

[Hudathan]

I don't need years of experience and a special degree from the cool kids club to validate my observation (especially when they are, more orless, shared by everyone else here). Raphael is extremely weak.

Nobody is saying that but you.

And yes, you DO need years of experience and qualifications to have your opinions count in any legitimate discussion in this world. You think you can go into a hospital and tell doctors what to do if you've never been through medical school? You've clearly demonstrated the fact that you are new to the game and unfamiliar with how the system works, but you continue to make generalized claims as if you know everything there is to know and adopt a defeatist attitude by default. Not sure how many times veteran tournament players have to tell you that Raph is fine in this game. Either you're not reading these comments or you're blatantly arguing for the sake of it.

 

[WuHT]

Players like Kowtow, Hudathan, and I have been involved in this series at a national tournament level for a long time. Others like Bojack, Chu-fye and others have been around on and off as well, and all of these people would like nothing more than to help you improve with Raph. ge, ghey!".

I'd like to just remove myself from your list of esteemed and respected players.

And ghost: Don't get the impression people are ganging up on you as an individual. Right now they're working hard on finding answers to help you with your gameplay, and everytime you reply it seems to be about more how your game is going to be hypothetically shut-down.

You'd expect constructive discussion to be more like "hey I'm using X move more in situation Y. I've noticed my opponent adapting by using move A, so now what should I do given this new circumstance?" as opposed to "lets face it guys, we should just give up right now".

 

[ghost_whistler]

So if i go outside on a cold day, would I need years of meteorological training to say i think it's cold?

The sneery attitude among gamers is unfortunately apparent here and I got tired of it years ago. I don't understand why there needs to be this sniffy 'you must hold the opinions we approve of or we will laugh and sneer at you'. I don't like it. I've been polite with people on here, I've shown no hostility or abuse so you can drop this 'i don't know how many times tournament players...' I don't need to be spoken to like a child so drop it.

And to sit there, when I am DIRECTLY responding to posts made to me, accusing me of arguing for the sake of it or not reading those posts is something i find incredibly rude. I don't need to be spoken to with an attitude thank you. I have made my opinions clear and expressed them. Nothing I have tried works. I maintain the roster isn't balanced and the game has problems in that regard being able to respond without being locked down. There is no way to avoid this that i can see because nothing I have tried works. To argue that Raphael is fine because you are a super tournament player is a flawed arguyment: you would win with any character. I am not a tournament player, I don't live anywhere that holds tournaments. I simply want to play and enjoy a game online now that the online works without having to deal with the broken crap I see (and I see a LOT of it) and the assumption that I don't or haven't bothered learning is simply rubbish.

 

[WuHT]

So if i go outside on a cold day, would I need years of meteorological training to say i think it's cold?

You seem to be confident in your assessment in a game that came out for little over a week. It you think its as straightforward and black and white as a simple temperature reading then you're either very confused or very bad at making analogies.

The sneery attitude among gamers is unfortunately apparent here and I got tired of it years ago.

Good stop with the sneery attitude and i'll make sure no one does the same to you. You expect people not to get hurt by your comments (and i honestly hope no one does) but you are behaving very hypocritically here.

I don't understand why there needs to be this sniffy 'you must hold the opinions we approve of or we will laugh and sneer at you'.I don't like it.

Like I earlier stated you're probably misinterpreting things due to the volume of the replies you've received. Just take things at face value and you'll actually only debate about the merits of the game's strats instead of perceived grievances against you.

I don't need to be spoken to like a child so drop it.

Sometimes if people need to make a point, they either simplify their vocabulary or make basic analogies to emphasize simple concepts. If you've taken offence to that, its probably a misinterpretation because we're all here to help each other out.

I have made my opinions clear and expressed them

I have no clue why you need to emphasize this, as it is assumed that everyone is trying to make opinions clear and understandable. You are not the only one trying to push their point here.

Nothing I have tried works. ... There is no way to avoid this that i can see because nothing I have tried works

Well as long as you keep saying this, people will be driven to give you suggestions to help you. You can either respond by : "tried it.. didnt' work. Am I doing it wrong or is my opponent adapting 1 step ahead of me ? " or you can continue paddling in a circle pointing figures about people hurting your feelings.

I maintain the roster isn't balanced and the game has problems in that regard being able to respond without being locked down.

Now I agree it is not balanced entirely, but it is not unbalanced to the point where you assume people cannot give you suggestions to implement.

I am not a tournament player, I don't live anywhere that holds tournaments. I simply want to play and enjoy a game online now that the online works without having to deal with the broken crap I see (and I see a LOT of it) and the assumption that I don't or haven't bothered learning is simply rubbish.

Since you probably don't have any game play videos, maybe replicate and describe the situations where you are being locked down and maybe someone can help you find some holes in it. Being vague about being "entirely helpless" doesn't exactly help others help you.

I know Raph isn't easy to use, and there are plenty of things I find odd with his design, such as why 22A, 22K, AND 33A all barely do over 15 damage. I like to be optimistic and tell myself that i'd take 15 damage over whiffing and eating an opponent's launcher.

Finally, I was thinking about creating a QQ MOAR thread into which we could move all the teary-eyed posts, which could stay on as a venting type thread, cause we'll all have those times where we wanna say "WTF - i10 hori(ish) mids are weak sauce" and we could put it there, where it can be read, or ignored, but not interfere with productive chat.

Go for it. You or KT can let it run wild or close it after a week. Maybe people do need to get something off their chest before they can resume their normal posting activities.

I'd be one of the first to post in it LOL.

 

[Mandritti]

Telling me that 'i don't know how bad I suck' tells me nothing.

If you can't explain how then, yes in my opinion, you are being a dick.

1. My knee-jerk reaction; What Fighter Games are
It's a stylistic variant on Plato's wisdom.
Plato knew he knew nothing.
The cool thing about the world is it's actually friggin' complicated and Humans basically still know nothing about anything. Least of all they understand each other. No actually least of all they understand themselves.

When you realize that your starting point is that you know nothing about how a Fighter game works, then learning can occur. That's the same for everyone.
You've stated that you experience the game to be tough. Okay, yes, you can't be wrong about what you experience. But is the game supposed to not be tough if you just do the first things that are coming to mind? Why would your intuition about how to handle a scenario be one that works? And, why would a belief about a strategy that does not work, do anything other than lose games a lot, repeatedly?

As these gentlemen said , this is a game which is made to have a learning curve. It's your rejection of this statement, and switching the focus around to your victimization (real or imagined) which makes me want to call troll, but I don't want to. I want to finish this up my way.


2. What is very strange about your posts
You make increasingly large posts decrying this, that, and the other lame thing about your "experience". When one point is quoted to provide hard, counterindicative evidence, you reaffirm your denial despite the expertise of the person replying. So, yeah, no one told you how to beat Nightmare. There's a reason for that.*
When you say the character is weak, or chars should be designed differently, or your character isn't fun, or something about online has skewed representation, you take the answer you get, pooh-pooh it, and then change the subject to one of these other things.
What is actually annoying you? It is beyond most people's ability to take in multiple points of discussion at once. You want to demonstrate something, either use logic and sequence, or pander to the emotions of the audience and make them think they agree with you because they sympathize with your conclusion. (The latter one works. Credit where credit is due.) However, the latter is basically the enemy of the ideals of this forum. The Soul Arenas and their hard facts, anyway.


3. How you should re-evaluate your priorities
Please decide what specifically is missing, ask for it deliberately, and then actually listen. And then, coming back to the * point,
* think about it yourself. Players won't talk about a strategy in text, or in person, because know-how defies language. No strategy to approaching a Human character, if the rules of the game are interesting (as a learning curved Fighter is), could actually be exhausted in a simple description. There MAY, there MAY, be a description of a strategy that can exhaust KowTowRobinson's know-how against Nightmare's at this point in time ... but figuring out what that is and arranging a document for someone else's consumption? Sorry, he just doesn't love you that much. Communicating ideas is expensive.

Now, because I love the appearance of my own words on computer screens, I m giving this for free. But I don't have the knowledge these people do. They have gone as far as to entertain this argument to here, when just a year ago it probably would have just been moderator-wiped without notice. Just ask yourself what you want and how badly you want it. Then if it actually falls in line with what you're willing to do to get it, get it. If you're asking someone for something, then they must co-operate to give it to you.

 

[WuHT]

Now, because I love the appearance of my own words on computer screens,

I'm glad you came out and admitted this lol . Intervention successful

 

[Reave]

I wish Rapheal was as bad as this guy thinks. I get pissed being zoned out in a fighting game with very litte projectiles lol. Wavering Lights FTW though.

 

[KowtowRobinson]

I've had enough. Next post of this dumb argument is getting deleted. This is going on 4 pages right now, it's taking up space that can be filled with actual information.

ghost, you'll be getting infractions from here on out if you continue arguing this way. Unless you're gonna back your posts up with facts (move X is too slow isn't good enough, come with actual hard evidence) then you're just repeating yourself.

EDIT: those of you that messaged me about it, don't reply to him any further unless it's with concrete evidence, so at least OTHER people that read it can get some use from it.