Raphael General Discussion

Lau- Yeah this whole "Step> Raph" nonsense is pretty exagerrated. Outside of prep he certainly has options (although admittedly weak ones) to stop step. Once he is in Prep his step killing ability is pretty solid. few things:

-You can step SEA 100% if you step left. But SEA A tracks that side completely and there is some good juice if land that (I made a post about that in the 'attacks you should be using thread)

-After blocking a SEA mixup stepping left, blocking, and throwing out an attack to deter repeated SEA . Sadly it wasn't recorded but i had a tourney match with Tiamat a month ago where he started NM 33B'ing repeated SEA attempts. (although I could have/should have started doing more prep SEA B---prep A). But yeah the most reliable thing seems to be step left and get ready to throw break if he does prep---wait---throw

-Taki can avoid prep altogether with AB since it is high mid. Even if you do try and do Prep-->wait--> block she'll still punish you for it. As far as I know she is the only character that can completely stop prep.

Basically against characters without fast AAs, Raph can dictate his prep game and force the opponent into 50/50ish mixups all the while inflicting soul gauge damage. Any character with a fast AA presents problems for Raph but doesn't shut down his prep completely (except for Taki). I'd say other than Taki Raph can deal with any option any character in the game throws at him while he is in prep
 
taki's AB is the real killer, as no prep option can avoid both the hits. Luckily, the short range she's got on that move means that not entering prep can make her whiff, and raph's an easy whiff punisher.



-- SEA A is incredibly good on block, so it's back to whoring prep again... after realizing in matches where i get 60% of my damage from pokes, and 40% from stances
 
Remember last night Trolt, vs KrazyCD's Kilik? Prep was getting beat down pretty bad by his TCing moves, I'm not even sure if Prep A would've worked in all those situations since it seems his TCing move steps back alittle, possibly avoiding Prep A....not sure on this though so don't write it in stone.

Whoring prep vs an intelligent opponent is never a good thing, I don't think we should be advising that. Test it out, see if your opponent keeps falling for traps in prep. Don't neglect VE games too, which doesn't even need prep to be useful.

After Hudathan's video's I'm going to be trying alot more iWR A's see how that goes.....

question about Raphael's 6BB punisher: 6BBB on block is how bad? I get punished alot out of this. Also, 6BB as punishment...should you always go into prep? If so, what do you do in prep in these situations? I'm having trouble with Raphael's punishment becomes honestly...it seems so damn weak.....

Also.....I noticed that I'm the only Raphael who's a brawler damnit. I'M NOT SAYING that this is the way Raphael is meant to be played...hell...in a tournament environment it probably is SUICIDE, but if your opponents aren't well informed on anti-Raph....be aggressive as hell. It's fun.

I play a safe Raphael ONLY when I have too, like Trolts dancing pokepoke"I'M A PONY" ASS or Hudathan constantly spacing (git awaaaay) self. <3 u guys.

Ruiner
 
Thanks guys for the explanation...

I guess I was right... and it's not that easy to stop prep or at least it's much exaggerated... as for going against kilik's iWS B... there's always VE... I think that'll solve it... if not perhaps Prep A+B.... but thanks for the hint... that gave me some ideas on what can potentially stop prep...

-LAU
 
I actually don't like to play very defensive and spacing minded, I do it because experience and match up dictates that I should. I would much prefer to play a solid character as much as anyone. I apply Raph's options aggressively when I know I'm in positions to do so, but he's just not very good at containing people so you can't force it half the time.

SEA A is excellent. And fast AA's ruin prep, or Amy's 6BB.
 
perhaps I usually play slow characters.... that's got crappy lows like NM's 1K = his best low..... my style in GENERAL is also fairly aggressive...

imo... perhaps it's partially habit.. but i like to use 2K a lot also throws.... Raph's throw range is decent... that usually can make people hestitate a bit.. and a good mix of GI/44B can contain people from using fast attacks... personally against people who loves to guard/wait for oppurtunities i find... SEA A/Prep B (yes one poke...)/Prep -> throw to be fairly useful when i'm in stance if i'm not... raph's got excellent spacing.. just constant step guard, 2K/throw, 3, 6BB, BB seems to work well for me.....

anyways.. still learning raph... but my impression of him is...

He's the new taki.. but with mitsurugi's simplicity.

-LAU
 
LAU said:
perhaps I usually play slow characters.... that's got crappy lows like NM's 1K = his best low..... my style in GENERAL is also fairly aggressive...

imo... perhaps it's partially habit.. but i like to use 2K a lot also throws.... Raph's throw range is decent... that usually can make people hestitate a bit.. and a good mix of GI/44B can contain people from using fast attacks... personally against people who loves to guard/wait for oppurtunities i find... SEA A/Prep B (yes one poke...)/Prep -> throw to be fairly useful when i'm in stance if i'm not... raph's got excellent spacing.. just constant step guard, 2K/throw, 3, 6BB, BB seems to work well for me.....

anyways.. still learning raph... but my impression of him is...

He's the new taki.. but with mitsurugi's simplicity.

-LAU
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Taki ? Hmm that's a very interesting base for comparison. I admit that I find raph very direct in terms of gameplay, though spacing with him is one of the few "tough" things you have to figure out, especially if you are against talim or mina..then your gameplay will change drastically.

I wanna see a Lau-raph vid

--Anyways beloved, I'm pretty sure you have enough time on 3B (no prep) blocked, to sidestep a kilik iWRB .. i've done it once, but against krazie i ALWAYS go into stance cuz i get excited :).. and don't mess up B+K for VE..cuz i did and just did a silly high poke instead of VE-ing
 
WuHT said:
Taki ? Hmm that's a very interesting base for comparison. I admit that I find raph very direct in terms of gameplay, though spacing with him is one of the few "tough" things you have to figure out, especially if you are against talim or mina..then your gameplay will change drastically.

I wanna see a Lau-raph vid

--Anyways beloved, I'm pretty sure you have enough time on 3B (no prep) blocked, to sidestep a kilik iWRB .. i've done it once, but against krazie i ALWAYS go into stance cuz i get excited :).. and don't mess up B+K for VE..cuz i did and just did a silly high poke instead of VE-ing
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there will be some soon

but i don't know if it's a great example... because i'm playing against Chang's Friend's Mina.....

and his Mina got his ass kicked.. basically we played this match up to confirm Raph vs Mina is probably one of the worst match ups in the game... (obviously to Raph's advantage)... he kicked my Mina's ass really badly with raph the week before.. so i kinda wanna do the same back to him to show it was really the character issue not player lol

I'll probably play more.. but right now.. i feel like my raph is still got plenty of room to improve.

Taki comparison was really not SC4 Taki.. but more like i feel like Raph got so many frame traps its as if i'm playing old school SC2 taki possession lockdown.

-LAU
 
LAU said:
there will be some soon



and his Mina got his ass kicked.. basically we played this match up to confirm Raph vs Mina is probably one of the worst match ups in the game... (obviously to Raph's advantage)..
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Ya know, you aren't the first person I've heard say that same thing. I've never really played a high level Mina but I'm really curious to see if its indeed THAT bad
 
Millionz said:
Ya know, you aren't the first person I've heard say that same thing. I've never really played a high level Mina but I'm really curious to see if its indeed THAT bad
Click to expand...

a couple of us from Hong Kong is still working on Mina... it's quite tough with her.. because all her good moves got many weaknesses... FORTUNATELY.. most characters can not counter all her 'good moves' like.. certain characters can counter certain stuff but can't really punish other good stuff.. so you REALLY need to know your match up well with mina and abuse what your opponent have a hard time to punish....

with raph.... he might be the only character that can punish everything.

sometimes... these advantages/disadvantage isn't just like block-> punish... but maybe gotta do with spacing... example.... sophitia.. can punish a lot of stuff mina does... but a properly spaced mina and if you use 4A/GI/aGI well it can give sophie hell.... mina can easily space sophie and sophie will have a hard time to beat her SEMI-keep away strat..... (basically moving in.. then moving out.. and using mina's frame DISADVANTAGE as baits.) ....most of the time... if mina can't beat them with speed she can beat them with range and they'll be forced into 50/50 which gives mina a good chance. Not to mention certain punishable attacks mina does sophie can't punish but raph or other long range characters can... setsuka seems to be able to punish everything on block as well but she lacks raph's range/spacing game that mina kinda relies on when she's up against a character that focuses on block punishment.

with raph... he pretty much excels over mina in nearly all range......mina not having the best step but having only a good front/back step doesn't exactly help against raph who if you don't step against him at all you kinda die.

B+K steps to mina's weak side.. while SEA/SEB avoids mina's best interupters.... her main fast mid punisher... 6AK.. first hit will hit.. second hit will whiff against raph if he's in SEA/SEB to the point where raph can punish mina back despite mina guessed right.. her only hope is 3bK but because of how SC4 changed bufferring system and the range of that move it's not easy to use.

to conclude... raph vs mina is pretty bad.

-LAU
 
Raphael's 236B practically shuts down any long range offensive Mina can do. Sure, she can sidestep all day, but that means a good Raphael can get in close rather easily, which isn't helping Mina either. 236B can also interrupt plenty of her moves in mid combo as well. Prep game owns Mina....Mina just can't handle Raphael. I feel bad for the Mina players I've played, lol.....

Hudathan, I feel you on that. It kinda sucks that as Raphael players, vs higher tier characters we're almost always forced to retaliate and react, only once in awhile taking an offensive with a poke or 2.
 
BelovedChild said:
Remember last night Trolt, vs KrazyCD's Kilik? Prep was getting beat down pretty bad by his TCing moves, I'm not even sure if Prep A would've worked in all those situations since it seems his TCing move steps back alittle, possibly avoiding Prep A....not sure on this though so don't write it in stone.

Whoring prep vs an intelligent opponent is never a good thing, I don't think we should be advising that. Test it out, see if your opponent keeps falling for traps in prep. Don't neglect VE games too, which doesn't even need prep to be useful.

After Hudathan's video's I'm going to be trying alot more iWR A's see how that goes.....

question about Raphael's 6BB punisher: 6BBB on block is how bad? I get punished alot out of this. Also, 6BB as punishment...should you always go into prep? If so, what do you do in prep in these situations? I'm having trouble with Raphael's punishment becomes honestly...it seems so damn weak.....

Also.....I noticed that I'm the only Raphael who's a brawler damnit. I'M NOT SAYING that this is the way Raphael is meant to be played...hell...in a tournament environment it probably is SUICIDE, but if your opponents aren't well informed on anti-Raph....be aggressive as hell. It's fun.

I play a safe Raphael ONLY when I have too, like Trolts dancing pokepoke"I'M A PONY" ASS or Hudathan constantly spacing (git awaaaay) self. <3 u guys.

Ruiner
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out of 6BB i usually prep VE A or A+G mix ups =D

WR A good shit

when they block at tip range of WR A go strait for 44B
_________________________________________
====== DOUBLE POST AUTO-MERGE ======
heh guess what

66K combos into 2A+B if they dont tech

according to training
 
quick question to off-line raph...

How viable is 1A and 33B as low pokes (blockability is probably what i'm getting at).. i'm just asking this around in general.

They're both slowish frame-wise..but the animation isn't as obvious
 
WuHT said:
quick question to off-line raph...

How viable is 1A and 33B as low pokes (blockability is probably what i'm getting at).. i'm just asking this around in general.

They're both slowish frame-wise..but the animation isn't as obvious
Click to expand...

People I play often are starting to block 33B on reaction but not always 1A.

33B is rather easy to learn to see cuz the inital sidestep hop.

Hope this helps.
 
HolyForce said:
People I play often are starting to block 33B on reaction but not always 1A.

33B is rather easy to learn to see cuz the inital sidestep hop.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

WTF? how ?its more of anticipation probably

then anything else

as for 1A isnt that - on hit?
 
angelic_fragment said:
WTF? how ?its more of anticipation probably

then anything else

as for 1A isnt that - on hit?
Click to expand...

and it's linear too... my kinda low!


one thing is that 33B sidestep animation is different from a regular step, but when playing it's probably a lil harder to tell.
 
33B has a pretty distinct animation. If your opponent is someone who plays against Raph a lot they will probably be able to block it consistently. But if you're using 33B mid/max range (which is when you should be using it) most of the cast can't really punish it so go nuts
 
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