Scores for Community Matchup Chart

Sacharja

Sacharja

[12] Conqueror
Title says it all. For those who dont know what this is all about check Jaxels matchup chart thread in the tactics section.
Keep your argument as reasonable, thought-out and objective as possible. First post will be updated with the results of discussion in this thread.

Algol
Amy
Astaroth
Cassandra
Cervantes
Hilde
Ivy
Kilik
Lizardman
Maxi
Mitsurugi
Nightmare
Raphael
Rock
Seong Mina
Setsuka
Siegfried
Sophitia
Taki
Talim
Tira
Voldo
X
Yoshimitsu
Yunsung
Zasalamel
 
just looking at Jaxel's chart regarding to Talim's score kinda discourages me to even attempt doing something like this.

Here are the following reasons.

1) I honestly can't trust most players here to be objective.
2) Everybody loves contributing... however the problem is... either they aren't good enough or their opponents aren't good enough.
3) Nobody has played every single match up against a good player using specific characters. It doesn't help when I can play a certain character better than someone who mains that character.... and when you start beating the other player based on your experience... it makes things kinda skewed one way or another..... another way of saying this is.... most people haven't played against a good Rock player (or list another uncommon character...)... because simply there aren't that many available in the world.
4) There's always human error in practical play... but in theory world there's no human error or reaction time.... in this world... Yoshimitsu should be like god-tier... think about it.. i can do his attack reversal and get off an unblockable AND heal immediately after that... or i can launch you and you are instantly dead (4A jf over and over again.. theoretically possible.. but i haven't seen any video where someone did more than 2 times in a row). When i see results like Talim vs Algol is 1:10...
5) Maybe in Siegfried's forum people will be more understanding of this... but in other forums... they don't regard throwing as a valid strategy... in the theoretical world... throws don't do any damage because you can break it.. but they fail to realize. a) throws are NOT 50/50... simply because if you got a good mind game.. you can read your opponent's choice based on their habits/ring position.... opponent's back to the edge... you're sieg... you do a B throw against them.. and they aren't complete noobs.. chances are they'll most LIKELY not gonna break B.. .unless they are extremely low on health where it doesn't matter anyways. b) throw range are usually disregarded despite the fact that a long throw range can usually lead to interupts where it catches your opponent off-guard... c) throws especially those from NM/Sieg leaves them at a TREMENDOUSLY good wake up game... people fail to recognize that as any advantage as well
6) This will lead to pointless argument and will turn out to be a 'I can guess right more than you can' war.... or... 'your theory doesn't make sense but mine those'
------------------------

Enough with my ranting....

Here's my contribution... that will be argued to no tomorrow simply because that's how it's been with this topic. And I honestly think I know this match up pretty damn well and played enough sieg players... and also being both a decent NM and mediocre Sieg player..... I think i'm pretty credible to say the followings:

NM vs Sieg: 5.5:4.5... NM advantage
A) NM RO > Sieg RO.. and is more useful than Sieg's CF > NM CF
B) NM Throw range > Sieg's Throw range vs Sieg's got a better poke/mid range game.... I say in the end I'll rate this as canceling each other out....
C) both characters are taking a clear risk for going into any stance... however imo... NM has the upperhand when sieg goes into SCH.. vs NM going into GS/NSS.... the average damage i can dish out for guessing right is generally higher than the average damage sieg can dish out when he guesses right.... (this is based on getting into stance and guessing)
D) NM agA series >>> Sieg's (FYI NM's got 4 different variation of agA)
E) both character's wall game is strong.....however i say NM is better simply with more options and tech traps, anti-tech traps and re-wall combos based on anti-tech trap/tech traps...

once again... i say... this match up is in favor of NM by a bit. so 5.5:4.5...

-LAU
 
IMO, Siegfried + patience = owning. No matter what.
But, here are things that by experience I think are outside of the norm: Astaroth's 66K and all the push back all of his moves have on guard, plus SC4 not having [ G ]+[ 6 ] or [ G ]+[ 4 ] is down right troublesome, even for Siegfried.
 
I have three Taki pros in my friend list. We play with good connection and our matches are mostly even. I'll check with them to see if I can post their names here for anyone who wants a shot at them.

I have an Astaroth player who I have not defeated ever. He's got soul, lol.
 
I only say that because I've been playing against all types of Seigs since day one and since before I dropped Taki (granted I missed the opportunity to play the best one MISTER OFFBEAT WHO KEPT DODGING ME AT EVERY TOURNEY! lol. =P) But yea, I always thought this was nothing better than a 6:4 for Taki =/
 
yep I was going to post up something like LAU did, but then reconsidered. Anyway first start should be an agreement on who the good players are and then let the good players who can meet up and play regulary discuss their opinion.
The only ones who have a good chart are FR players. They can do it b/c players discussing can play each other and discuss their opinions in person.

Threads like these. people take it as an opportunity to show off or more likely a latent whine. where they say this matchup is bad b/c they get raped by local player not b/c they really know it inside out. Damn, most people exuses after losses are truly pathetic. Everytime I get beaten by a char I go and think what possible advantages I have in the matchup, why did I misplace those moves that look favorable for me in theory. If there is no favorable mixup seemingly is there a way to create one. I have reconsidered a lot of matchups that seemed bad at first into quite the opposite with doing a lot of research and practice. But most players do exact opposite, they prefer to whine how bad this is and then they go to local forum and say "this is unwinnable". Now its the local forum I speak about. But on 8wr scrubs all over the world rigorously create an ultimate whine masked behind the "tier/matchup" discussion facade.

Theres really no way for this to be productive unless some kind of a "skill control" is intact and like I posted above ability to meet and play out the different opinions is vital.
 
I trust in whatever the players from Dominican Republic say about SC overall. For them SC is like a religion, they have weekly meetings and monthly rank tournaments, all Offline, face to face top playing action.
Dam, I wish I could go there. I believe they have like 15 top players, including Omega.

I would be glad to match up with anyone using different characters to clarify the whole SC4 game. One way I have practiced to get the best results is for both players to switch their character to their opponent's character per match. For example: I play Siegfried/Yun against a player who uses Siegfried/Yun too. At every new battle we swap characters, 1st match Sig vs Yun, 2nd match Yun vs Sig, 3rd match... If we do this with most or all characters, not only we'll get a near accurate "Tier" score, but we'll also improve a lot in our knowledge and spotting/punish skills.

The session must be between two character. After session is over, one or two new characters can be selected. The session can be of 1st-to-5 or 1st-to-10, etc. Whatever the outcome, players must record the numbers of Wins/lose during that session and the number of sessions won by that character.

Then later, if possible, we can arrange for day to play 4 players in one session. Players will only play using two different character on discussion. After each win, the player who won must remain with that chatacter until he/she beats all three players using the secondary character in discussion.

I have over 12mbps of connection speed and I'm at Calumet City IL. I have a list of good player in my PS3. We can all share and meet up new players and learn a lot from each other as we accomplish this plan.


Does it sounds like a good idea?
 
So I guess this calls for a thread close?

because most of the people that's contributing or going to contribute to this thread is neither from FR or DR

case closed

-LAU
 
Jink:
Playing like you said is very important, you can both learn counters and counters to counters from each other. improve the basics. But the most important part the understanding of which strategy is hard to deal with for your opponent. many times I failed to realize how intimidating some of my strategies were, untill my partners pick my character and copy this strategy.
But like the lau said
It doesn't help when I can play a certain character better than someone who mains that character
Click to expand...
 
Dreamkiller said:
Come to Evo =P
Click to expand...

Ohh, f**k, I wish I could.

The thing about character mastering: It mostly takes knowing the command and make good use of them. Anyone who gets to understand the basic purposes of some essential moves, has good chances of beating anyone who main that character.

We all know that SC has never been a "command challenge game." It doesn't require that much skills to perform efficient things like combos and setups. SC is very playable for that reason, it takes out the worries from the skill part. SC is mainly a metal, gamble/reaction game. Moves like Just Inputs are not that necessary to win against any character. The reason for that is; that nearly every moves has its way of being countered (crouch, dodge, jump, etc.), and are not guarantee to work all the time (Example: Asta's 66K > most Sig options, and one must play very different against any Asta player because of the potential of 66K being used during the match).

The other point about mastering anything: It mainly requires time. "Time is the teacher", and everyone has the same potential. Its just a matter of deciding how to invest in that potential, that's what makes some individuals stronger, faster, etc. than other individuals. There's no set limit, only what the game (in this case) provides.

Playing good and winning is more of a defensive matter also. A player's offense game will always be limited by their character, but a player's defensive game is only bound to change and adapt, just like water. IMO, the art of fighting comes in the defense. In order to apply one's wits, one must know what can be done. "Knowing is half the battle" (G.I. Joe).

Gambling vs reflexes: This is very simple...
Reflexes > gambling
If a player is fast enough to spot and act, they will not need to relay on gambling their way out of a situation. What helps reflexes in fighting are the character's strings of attacks. "If you know the next move's target, guard it, counter it, or punish it, if possible. Good gambles can not harm a player with good reflexes (Bruce Lee taught us that)...

...I got to go, Transformer2 is on the way!
 
I would make a new signature... "No Taki in the World can defeat me"... well that's another story... I want to share a story: "I was making my first challenge against Yun in the hands of the very best Yun player on DR, a player who plays against Omega every day... he beat me 10-1. I recorded the match and practice to control my B game against Yun. So in the next time we play I was winning 8-5, so he switch to Amy for a better chance to beat me... at the end he lose."


For me, Siegfried is top tier, better than Siegfried only Hilda and the difference is only her guarranted A charged auto GI and her doom combos. With the correct defense and GI game I can do it, but in the end against a player who have same level or higher the game just become a harder gamble. Patiente will be our friend in those hard gambling matches...

A phrase that I said to any opponent before the match: "If you can block all my RSH attacks and dodge all my throws you are in the way to win."

-Stryker-
 
LOL. I contrast this with the discussion in the Ivy forums...

I think one of our problems here is the fact that there is a huge variability in the play styles that people adopt using Sieg. Whereas for some other characters, there is less variation. Certainly, even just comparing the Dominicans and the French shows differences in their style of play.
 
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