Siegfried Combo and Tech Trap Discussion

I don't see anyone complaining about his damage in the sense that they find it to be too high. If they do, they're most likely ranking scrubs and I have stopped playing that after my first 5 matches, because it's a cesspool of stupidity.
That being said, his damage isn't too bad - especially considering the accessability of it and the returns of meter usage. It just can't compensate for the lack of tools and safety, but he'd have to deal half life on everything + more with meter to do that and that'd be a stupid band-aid fix to begin with.

Well, we'll see if the upcoming patch will do anything for him. If not... I got my secondaries ready for the next tournament.
 
Sacharja said:
If done later SCH K BE~CE will deal 15 points more dmg post launch than with regular timing. The reason for this is most likely that the opponent is treated as grounded rather than airborne. The difference in scaling can be observed in 22BB4 and SBH B combos using this follow-up as well.

Using this 3(B)~SCH K BE~CE deals 119 points of dmg before clean hits. WS (B) 123. Not too shabby.
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I also found this about 2 weeks ago. I haven't been trying this because it's kinda easy to mess up the timing, if you do the Critical Edge too late if will get blocked and you die.
 
The CE isnt where you switch up the timing. You just buffer that as usual. SCH K BE has to be delayed, but its a certain window, nothing too tight imo. Ill practice it in actual matches and see how it goes.

PS: I'll send you a friend invite on PSN in a few minutes, when Im done with breakfast.
 
Sacharja said:
The CE isnt where you switch up the timing. You just buffer that as usual. SCH K BE has to be delayed, but its a certain window, nothing too tight imo. Ill practice it in actual matches and see how it goes.

PS: I'll send you a friend invite on PSN in a few minutes, when Im done with breakfast.
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Oh, I was thinking about something else then. If you delay CE only then 3(B) SCH K BE, CE will do abou 111-113 dmg. But the timing can be messed up easily.

Send me a message, my list is full since like early SC4 ;) I will have to remove someone in order to add you.
 
I've been experimenting with 3B~SCH~K (A+B+K)~W!~A+B and 22_88 BB4~SCH~K (A+B+K)~W!~A+B.. Sometimes all three hits from A+B will land, sometimes they will not. I'm finding A+B an easier and better alternative to agA, which seems inconsistent after the BE - the only drawback is you don't get the ringout, but I think it is doing more damage then with agA if you land it correctly.

Generally, A+B while standing sucks, but you got to use what you got.
 
Leinahtan said:
I've been experimenting with 3B~SCH~K (A+B+K)~W!~A+B and 22_88 BB4~SCH~K (A+B+K)~W!~A+B.. Sometimes all three hits from A+B will land, sometimes they will not. I'm finding A+B an easier and better alternative to agA, which seems inconsistent after the BE - the only drawback is you don't get the ringout, but I think it is doing more damage then with agA if you land it correctly.

Generally, A+B while standing sucks, but you got to use what you got.
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The problem with A+B is that it is extremely inconsistent with its hits. For example, against Patroklos, it seems that the second hit will whiff against him extremely often from many positions, whether you're juggling him or he's standing up. I'm not sure if it's just against him or there are others, but I play against Patroklos often and notice it on him more. Not to mention, being in SSH at that distance seems like an extremely poor choice to me. SSH BBB at close ranges has a habit of whiffing right through them, SSH K is stuffed by rollers and most WR attacks, and SSH A is extremely unsafe on block.

It's a bit more damage for putting yourself in an extremely disadvantaged situation, which makes it not worth it, I think - okizeme is about your grounded person trying to beat you from a disadvantaged position, not you trying to beat your grounded opponent from what's supposed to be an advantageous one.

Sacharja said:
If done later SCH K BE~CE will deal 15 points more dmg post launch than with regular timing. The reason for this is most likely that the opponent is treated as grounded rather than airborne. The difference in scaling can be observed in 22BB4 and SBH B combos using this follow-up as well.

Using this 3(B)~SCH K BE~CE deals 119 points of dmg before clean hits. WS (B) 123. Not too shabby.
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Just a quick note that the extra damage only applies specifically where noted. With 66k(BE) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ JagA as the combo, delaying the SCH k(BE) actually results in less damage - 68 damage with delay VS 75 damage without delay. This also applies to CH 11(B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ JagA - 64 damage with delay VS 73 damage without delay. This has to do with the opponent's current state. Delaying on 3(B) and WR (B) launches does more damage because grounded hits do more than hits in the air. But not delaying on 66k(BE) and CH 11(B) does more damage because hits on standing or crouching opponents do the most damage, and the opponent is in a crouched state when SCH k(BE) is done at the first opportunity after 66k(BE) and CH 11(B).

So essentially, Standing = Crouched > Grounded > Airborne, in terms of how much damage you will get for something. There are exceptions, of course - Nightmare's CE kills on an airborne opponent with CH and Clean Hit - but that is the general rule of thumb.
 
Took a look around and didn't see this up. It's a half life wall combo from FC b+g w/ your back to the wall.

FC B+G w! -> 11(B) -> SCH K BE -> agA -> w! -> 3(B) -> SCH B = 124 or so

The easy way to get this to work is to QS to your right then hold to that diagonal. Since you are BT you don't get the QS animation and you are in 8WR state :-). So instead of 11(B) it's actually 221(B). Also, to make sure you get the agA wall splat you would want to step to your right in most cases. So on 2p side it would be 887(B). I've also had it work where you just hold 1 or 7 but I like to make sure I get the move I want so I try to do the former to get it consistently.

There's more damage you can get if you have the meter to burn after the 3(b) relaunch also. If this has already been posted somewhere I apologize in advance.

- I.C.E.
 
Before the patch. Just try this.

CH 3(B) SCH delay KBE 2(A+B) SBH K BE

The Timing is very strict, if you miss try again. I don't know yet if it's reliable in versus. But we will never know.
In any case you have until tomorrow to enjoy it, hahah.
 
Sacharja said:
SBH B~8B+K~SCH K BE~a:G:A~W!~3(B)~W!~(delay) SCH B~CE

Hit it and hear the angels sing.
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Approximately how much damage is this?

I was dicking around with SBH B, iagA, W! 3(B), SCH K BE, iagA, W!, 3(B), SCH B and the last SCH B was not prorated a whole lot. Probably around 150 damage with slightly less meter usage.

The timing on the first agA is really janky though, sometimes they would wall splat too low or not at all.

I'll test it tomorrow and see what I find.

EDIT: It's because I suck balls at SBH, 8B+K, SCH K BE
 
PyroZamfir said:
SCH B was not prorated a whole lot.
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All of my moves are pro-rated because of how pro I am.

(No, seriously, what does that sentence mean?)

And speaking of weird, situational wall combos:

BT SCH B ~ JagA ~ W! ~ WR (B) ~ W! ~ SCH B ~ CE - 160ish damage / 1.0 meter. Extremely situational since you need to be in BT SCH and also have a wall to both you and your opponent's left, and also have the meter for it, which the combo itself builds a fair amount of - though I did, in fact, pull this off when I first discovered it during casuals with Ramon, where I just kept doing things for a bit and then thought "Oh, a CE here would be really nice."

Note the timing on the JagA is probably the hardest out of all the JagA timings because of that weird ass buffer. Do it too early and you end up doing BT A, and now you're BT again and they're on the floor behind you. Do it too late and you either get a wall splat too low for WR (B) to connect in time, or you just whiff completely. There's this really hard to get sweet spot for the JagA, one that seems harder to get than doing it from neutral or a buffered SCH k(BE).
 
Heaton said:
All of my moves are pro-rated because of how pro I am.

(No, seriously, what does that sentence mean?)

And speaking of weird, situational wall combos:

BT SCH B ~ JagA ~ W! ~ WR (B) ~ W! ~ SCH B ~ CE - 160ish damage / 1.0 meter. Extremely situational since you need to be in BT SCH and also have a wall to both you and your opponent's left, and also have the meter for it, which the combo itself builds a fair amount of - though I did, in fact, pull this off when I first discovered it during casuals with Ramon, where I just kept doing things for a bit and then thought "Oh, a CE here would be really nice."

Note the timing on the JagA is probably the hardest out of all the JagA timings because of that weird ass buffer. Do it too early and you end up doing BT A, and now you're BT again and they're on the floor behind you. Do it too late and you either get a wall splat too low for WR (B) to connect in time, or you just whiff completely. There's this really hard to get sweet spot for the JagA, one that seems harder to get than doing it from neutral or a buffered SCH k(BE).
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well this might at least make whiffing 22_88Bb4 not the worst thing in the world...lol
 
PyroZamfir said:
Approximately how much damage is this?

I was dicking around with SBH B, iagA, W! 3(B), SCH K BE, iagA, W!, 3(B), SCH B and the last SCH B was not prorated a whole lot. Probably around 150 damage with slightly less meter usage.

The timing on the first agA is really janky though, sometimes they would wall splat too low or not at all.

I'll test it tomorrow and see what I find.

EDIT: It's because I suck balls at SBH, 8B+K, SCH K BE
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Provided you actually get both JF agAs it should do something between 160-180. The combo has 5 moves that can clean hit, so damage varies a lot.
 
Today, I went and tried to unearth the secrets of SBH B ~ 44K. This one is special because it's the manliest combo available post SBH B, and also one of the most damaging - it can beat SBH B ~ CE depending on how it hits.

SBH B ~ 44K - 100 damage
SBH B (Clean) ~ 44K - 109 damage
SBH B ~ 44K (Clean) - 108 damage
SBH (Clean) ~ 44K (Clean) - 117 damage

Note that these numbers assume you get both hits from the dropkick - the kick itself, and then Siegfried dropping onto them. To do this, two criteria need to be met:
  1. Your opponent must have their back to a wall, but not close enough that they could easily be wall-splat with CH 4K or 3(B) - being too close will make the dropkick whiff entirely.
  2. Your opponent must not try to tech it.
The first requirement isn't too hard to meet, but the spacing is a bit wonky - try it in practice mode. The second criteria makes it seem like you would NEVER hit it, but if you tech any other option post SBH B, you're eating more damage - the opponent is probably not going to want to do that.

You can also use this combo to ring people out - they go FLYING after you dropkick them out - but be extremely careful. If you were right next to your opponent when you hit SBH B, and it looks like SBH B itself will not ring them out, don't 44K - you'll dropkick over them and ring yourself out. Lab it up and figure out what the right distance is so you don't make an embarrassing mistake in a match.

Try it out and see if you like it. If you're near a wall and don't have any meter for SCH k(BE) combos, it's your best bet at that kind of damage.
 
Sacharja said:
Provided you actually get both JF agAs it should do something between 160-180. The combo has 5 moves that can clean hit, so damage varies a lot.
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The combo in your original post is absurd, 178 seemed to be the most common damage I got when doing it through clean hits. Unfortunately I don't think I could land SBH B, 8B+K in a match, the timing is very strict. In good news SBH B~ iagA~3(B) SCH B is about 120-130 damage. The timing is odd, you want the agA to hit very low. Pretty solid meterless damage though if you break with a (B) or SBH aGI.
 
I don't get what's so hard about the timing. You buffer 8B+K during SBH B's recovery and then just do the same with SCH K BE during the end of the spin. Provided, the combo is distance-specific and there are a few scenarios where it won't allow for the pickup due to the opponent landing in a different position, but the inputs themselves are piss-easy. I should know, my execution is very sub-par and I can do this easily.

Good ways to land this combo in actual matchplay are to use B+K~SBH B vs anticipated throw attempts or stepping NMs CE at closerange. Or, you know, simply from a successful auto-GI against a 2A attempt. The issue with this combo is less with it being situational and more with the meter cost.

EDIT: Also, I misread your post. The 160-180dmg value only really applies with the CE ender and low or no clean hits.
 
I was having more success with this combo when the opponent's back was to the wall, rather than the wall being on the opponent's right. A lot more consistent after that.
 
I know this is a pretty retarded question but I want to make sure. What is the best meterless option after SCH kA+B+K?
 
Solo said:
I know this is a pretty retarded question but I want to make sure. What is the best meterless option after SCH kA+B+K?
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iagA is the best meterless option, higher damage than 3B and potential wall splat. However, 3B does more damage than regular agA after SCH kA+B+K.

EDIT: I should double check the regular agA vs 3B thing before I get flamed.
 
Pyro you forgot A+B. It does the same damage as both 3B and normal agA but you have the chance for the 3rd hit to not whiff in which case it even slightly surpasses iagA (not on clean hit though).

So all things considered, agA is the best (but only if you'll manage to get iagA decently often).
Imo A+B > 3B, after SCH K BE.
 
Thanks, I guess I'll continue to use A+B after it then. And PyroZamfir can continue beating the shit out of me. Lol
 
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