Siegfried Combo and Tech Trap Discussion

ChaosK said:
Pyro you forgot A+B. It does the same damage as both 3B and normal agA but you have the chance for the 3rd hit to not whiff in which case it even slightly surpasses iagA (not on clean hit though).

So all things considered, agA is the best (but only if you'll manage to get iagA decently often).
Imo A+B > 3B, after SCH K BE.
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You're right about higher damage if the third hit connects, if it does not you are boned. I also prefer iagA afterwards for better wakes, rather than being a stance with a reactable extraordinarily unsafe mixup.
 
Hello again. This time I tried to find tech traps involving SCH k(BE), as inspired by Sachararahaha - Sachjaarajar - Jarascharj - that one German guy and his SBH B combos involving it. And what I found was pretty nice.

SRSH :K: ~ :8::B+K: ~ SCH :kA+B+K: ~ :a-small:::g-small:::A:
  • 59 damage - no Clean + agA
  • 62 damage - Clean k(BE) + agA
  • 64 damage - no Clean + JagA
  • 67 damage - Clean k(BE) + JagA
That's a general list at damage, which can be so variable because of two clean hits, a JF, and differing damage depending on what height your opponent is at. So basically you're putting yourself at risk of getting nothing for roughly 20 more damage. Not bad, but not the best, especially if you're spending meter. However, let's say you delay the SCH k(BE) so it hits them later in the tech, when they've reached the crouching part of it. Then the damage looks like this:
  • 81 damage - no Clean + agA
  • 86 damage - Clean k(BE) + agA
  • 88 damage - no Clean + JagA
  • 102 damage - Clean k(BE) + Clean JagA
You have no idea how many attempts went into getting the double Clean hit + JagA version. Anyway, this is a MUCH better reward over SRSH K ~ SBH B. 40 more damage is much more convincing for taking risks, and it can also be more if you get lucky - 60 odd damage + wall potential is extremely convincing.

Now is the question of the hour - "What am I mixing it up with? Surely not SCH B, I hope!" It is, in fact, SCH B, and this isn't a bad thing for a number of reasons. For one, SCH B is not rollable at all. You can even delay the SCH B like you'd delay the SCH k(BE) for more damage and that just guarantees you're going to hit them for damage if they roll. It's also a force block if they either tech forwards or backwards, or don't tech at all, and we all know how nice it is to get SCH B blocked. The idea is to start hitting them with SCH B after SRSH K to make them think the mixup is between guaranteed SBH B and 8B+K ~ SCH B. Then when they finally start trying to tech SCH B, it's time to FLY HIGH. Give it a shot in matches and let me know how you like it.

A small taste of what you can do with a wall:

SRSH K ~ 8B+K ~ SCH k(BE) ~ JagA ~ W! ~ iWR (B) ~ SCH k(BE) ~ CE - 161 damage

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I seem to be having a good night, since I'm still finding things. I decided to start screwing around with delaying strings after knockdowns, and, well, take a look at this:

SBH :B: ~ :2h::B::B: - 91 damage
SBH :B: ~ :2::3::6::2::3::6::A+B+K: - 113 damage

That's the combo we all know and love. Our bread and butter follow-up for SBH B, unless we have meter to spend and want to kill them. However, if you delay the 22BB a second, you get something a little different:

SBH :B: ~ :5: ~ :2h::B::B::4: ~ SCH :kA+B+K: ~ :a-small:::g-small:::A: ~ :K+G: - 126 damage

And that's without ANY clean hits - three moves in that can Clean Hit and it also costs much less meter for more damage than using a CE. It also catches tech to ALL sides, however, the timing for catching right tech and getting the standing 22B KND is a bit different timing for catching front and back tech and getting the standing 22B KND - if you screw up, however, they just get hit normally. Extremely powerful for something that's not hard to do, catches all tech, and still gives guaranteed damage unless you delay it waaay too late.

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This seems to be a fortuitous night for me, indeed. This one works similarly to the SCH k(BE) listed earlier.

:6h::k-small::Ah::+::Bh::+::Kh: ~ SCH :kA+B+K: ~ :a-small:::g-small:::A: - 79 damage

Now add in a pirouette, and instead you get:

:6h::k-small::Ah::+::Bh::+::Kh: ~ SCH :2::B+K: ~ SCH :kA+B+K: ~ :a-small:::g-small::A: - 97 damage (ALL)

Again, the motivation to tech here is SCH B, which adds another dimension of scary ass damage when you see that it ALSO catches tech:
  • SCH :2::B+K: ~ SCH :4: ~ SCH :B: ~ :2::3::6::2::3::6::A+B+K: - 141 damage (FLB)
  • SCH :8::B+K: ~ SCH :4: ~ SCH :B: ~ :2::3::6::2::3::6::A+B+K: - 142 damage (FRB)
The direction you pirouette catches the opposite tech, and the SCH 4 is necessary to realign him because he gets a case of the Whiffles after the pirouette. Either way this just added a lot more depth to getting 66k(BE).

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At this rate I'm going to discover everything tonight.

Here's the combos we all know and love:

:4h::Bh: ~ SBH :B: - 60 damage
:4h::Bh: ~ SBH :kA+B+K: - 69 damage

Add a pirouette, and this is what we get instead:

:4h::Bh: ~ SBH :2::B+K: ~ SCH :kA+B+K: ~ :a-small:::g-small:::A: - 97 damage (ALL)

Note that all three moves in this can Clean Hit, and that it catches all techs, and you're looking at a huge buff to damage dealing off of it. There's no delaying required whatsoever for this tech trap, either - just do SCH k(BE) immediately after the SCH pirouette finishes. Again, the motivation for tech is SCH B, but the motivation to tech is slightly less strong here:

:4h::B: ~ SBH :2::B+K: ~ SCH :6: ~ SCH :B: - 32 damage (FB)

Yeah. Here is the problem - SCH B is only a "force block" in this situation. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but after they realize you can't hurt badly unless they tech, they're going to wise up sooner or later. It's also techable left or right, and you know what happens to you on whiff with that move, but if their gauge is flashing and they're not doing too well on health, either move on hit will end the round - it's a 50/50 after 44(B) on hit, essentially.

Note that the whole thing whiffs entirely if you hit 44(B) at tip range, so just get your SBH B combo if that's the case.
 
I think Heaton's been doing too much work, I wanted to save these tech traps for tourney tech. And then I realized no one else reads the Sieg forums except Belial to troll Pantocrator. So here are some of my techtrapping gems.

Any combo that involves a ground hitting 3B can be techtrapped to all sides by both SCH K, or SCH kA+B+K

For example:
CH 66K, W!, 3B, W!, ~(until feet touch ground), SCH B, 3B, SCH K (tech trap)
- that option gives a bunch of advantage on hit and lets you follow up with SCH B for advantage near a wall (my personal favourite)
CH 66K, W!, 3B, W!, ~(until feet touch ground), SCH B, 3B, SCH kA+B+K (tech trap)
-relaunches for approximately 160 damage with a half meter I believe, follow up of choice (though iagA afterwards does not re-wall splat I believe; or iagA will re-wall splat and 3B will hit and glitch leave them standing). You also have the added benefit that if they do not tech they will eat a +10 on block hit or relaunch from the second hit of SCH kA+B+K.

Furthermore SCH B has awesome tech traps depending on delay:
SCH B,~ 3B is a tech trap on all sides that relaunches, the timing is finicky
SCH B, ~ 1B/6B are tech traps as well, though the timing is different from 3B (though each of these misses on one side, I'm not at home now and cannot check)

You can also mix that up with wall-combo tech traps such as
CH 66K, W!, 3B, W!, ~(until feet touch ground), SCH B, ~ 3B for relaunch
CH 66K, W!, 3B, W!, ~(until feet touch ground), SCH B, ~ 6B/1B

Here's where you start putting together really cool / hilarious strings.

Imagine one of those situations where your back is to the wall and you force a whiff with 2_8B+K and net yourself an SCH B, you get something like this.

SCH B, ~ 1B (tech trap), W!, 3B, SCH kA+B+K (techtrap), iagA, W!, 3B, SCH B (I don't believe that 3B will wall splat, this is from memory when messing around in training, I can test it when I get home tonight)

As you can see though, the damage potential with so many resets in scaling is.... pretty off the hook. That set up if they tech will probably net close to full life.
 
Awesome finds. The SBH B, -delay-, [2]BB4, SCH kA+B+K, JagA tech trap also works if you use SRSH B as a starter instead of SBH B.

It has only 2 possible clean hits, but it's still a nice alternative to good old SRSH B, 44{B}, SBH kA+B+K, since it provides at least guaranteed damage not far behind the above combo, and can offer way more, especially when you're near a wall (through the roof damage, as long as you have meter).
 
can someone plz confirm WS B SCH B NC on opponents back?
tried this against NM then on Viola and it seems to work. If someone already posted this then my bad
 
kPc said:
can someone plz confirm WS B SCH B NC on opponents back?
tried this against NM then on Viola and it seems to work. If someone already posted this then my bad
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I know that WR B , SCH B is a character specific combo. I know it works against Astaroth and Aeon, Ivy rings a bell too. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with back hit.
 
Was in the lab. Found some 1B ~ W! combos. Note these only apply when getting a high wall splat off 1B:

1B ~ W!
  • iFC A+G*B+G - 70 damage [1]
  • BB - 79 damage [2]
  • 66B - 79 damage [2]
  • B4 (latest input) - 81 damage [2]
  • A+B - 86 damage [3]
  • 2(A+B) ~ SBH k(BE) - 99 damage [4]
I didn't realize you could get a Flap Jack pick-up off of the move because...I guess I'm ignorant. The BB is interesting since it gives a possible setup for BB(A), which I was convinced didn't exist. It's also there if you can't do B4 (latest input) consistently, or at an odd angle. A+B is amazingly consistent in this situation - if you get a wall splat that puts your opponent directly between you and the wall, you WILL get the 86 damage. 2(A+B) is the opposite, however - it's amazingly inconsistent and I can't tell what causes it to whiff or hit, though I do suspect the hitbox nerf it took in the patch plays a role in that - my best guess is that the timing of the 2(A+B) determines it The SBH k(BE) part is also techable to their left.

Difficult without High + BT wallsplat, impossible without High wallsplat
Not a combo without High + BT wallsplat
Third hit whiffs without High + BT wallsplat
Whiffs when it feels like it
 
Pantocrator said:
Interesting.
I guess most of this only work at long range, right ?
I will do more test about this too.
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Basically, you need a high wall splat and your opponent needs to be BT on the wall for all of the combos to hit, with a few exceptions. To get the High + BT wallsplat, you generally need to be as close to and as perpendicular to the wall as possible, because at a certain distance you only don't get a BT wallsplat, and at certain angles you don't get a high wallsplat. I added notes to the post to clarify which combos are actual combos under which circumstances.
 
Sorry if this has been answered...what is the best meterless option after FC B+G (Flapjack) into a wall? Turn around and 3B and then something, or BT SCH B and then something? I think it's the former, but the latter is so much more awesome...
 
BTSCH B, ag:A or time a backgrab as they land.
In SCIV you could BTSCHB, iWS AA for even more damage but I don't know if this still works. =/
 
Synraii said:
or time a backgrab as they land.
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Such things are a relic of the past, friend.

There are a few combos involving 11(B) afterwards that kPc posted a few pages back, I think those are the highest damage possible because of re-splats.
 
I forget to post a noob player tips here :-) , it's About 66KBE and the wake up game.

After 66K[BE] it's possible to do a slight step with 2 (but whitout B+K) before to launch SCHB.
With a good timing it give you 2 points more (62) and 1K will be combo (71) and techtrap (79) all side, except if the opponent tech back.
But if this one techroll back then 3B is techtrap. It won't relaunch but will add about 30 damage (93 in total).

So 66K[BE] SCH 25B 1K/3B. I guess that Namco don't know this (maybe I should delete it now), because the timing is quite strange and it can't work without it, but on my point of view, this time it's reliable.
 
Pantocrator said:
I forget to post a noob player tips here :-) , it's About 66KBE and the wake up game.

After 66K[BE] it's possible to do a slight step with 2 (but whitout B+K) before to launch SCHB.
With a good timing it give you 2 points more (62) and 1K will be combo (71) and techtrap (79) all side, except if the opponent tech back.
But if this one techroll back then 3B is techtrap. It won't relaunch but will add about 30 damage (93 in total).

So 66K[BE] SCH 25B 1K/3B. I guess that Namco don't know this (maybe I should delete it now), because the timing is quite strange and it can't work without it, but on my point of view, this time it's reliable.
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I posted something similar here (third section), but it does involve SCH 2*8B+K, which is definitely the better option because pirouettes are awesome. Not to mention SCH k(BE) catches all tech and launches for FLY HIGH shenanigans, and SCH B will still give you the two extra points of damage (albeit techable to left or right depending on your actions).

I'm assuming when you say 3(B) doesn't re-launch, you mean it gives you that weird "get hit but no knockdown whatsoever" property?
 
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