Siegfried vs Cassandra

[Jink]

Are you beast players or I'm a noob? I search a lot against Cass and found nothing were Siegfried can have the advantage against her!! Maybe the difference in this is the player against I'm playing... his style is wait and punish... and he doesn't fail in any punish chance! Its annoying! I try to get a fight and only I found an insane poke of safe mids and lows everywhere... She have better punish than Siegf (236 combos for example), better RO power (236 B RO power its insane), she can attack from any distance with better properties... I mean come in! be realistic! Toy with them? are you kidding me?

But Maybe you are right, and Siegf have the advantage, maybe is that the player I'm facing is too lucky or too powerful or maybe I born in the wrong country... a country with stupidly strong players.

-Stryker-

I never said that Sig had advantage or disadvantage against Cass. Cass are easily mind owned. Just today I've beated 5 different Cass (with no lag) that did all the stuff we see in vids today. I always lost the 1st two rounds, but the 3rd round, I've already figure and modified their gameplay to my advantage, and then easily won the three rounds to complete the match. Most Cass player are by-the-book players, one just needs to acknowledge their threat on time, then respond. And since I know their book, I can improvise better while they struggle whenever i don't fall for any trick of throw at me.
Agaist Cass, G, 2G, 1K, 2A, b6, SS, B+K, or 8B_K are your best friends. Now don't come and say; "But if guards 2A Sig is doom, booohooo." What guarantee you that they even 2G at all against such lame Low while so dangerous Mids? Nothing, but it works. Just be calm, have patience, and don't limit yourself.
And don't rush down when is not need it, Sig is not an offensive fighter, he's a momentum killer.
Its not about being brave or strong, its about being smart. Dare to mislead them and you'll win.

Of course, luck is always involve. 50/50. Knowing is half the battle. But the odds and outcomes always tells.

@Sacharja:
What I meant was that 11AA - blah, never mind...

By the way, the only thing I'm having serious trouble with in SC4 iiiiissss... Mitsu's 1A. Even smart-ass scrubs are beating me with random gambles of 1A mixed with any other mid that hits on ground. I'm just not lucky enough against such blind gambling game; 1A - 1A - 1A - 66B - 1A - 66B - 1A - 66B - 66B - 66B - 66B - 1A - 66B. A kid was beating the hell out of everyone (with lots of perfects with 4 to 5 bars) in the room that day by just repeating the above. Not me, not Astas, not Ivys, not Maxis, not Algor, not even I-don't-knows, could beat that kid who was just repeating random sequences of 1A mixed with whatever. It was so... hmm, I don't have words to describe it. Anyway, since that I can't give credit to any Mitsu player out there. No matter how good one can be with Mitsu, all that is needed is 1A and lots of luck.

And lately, all Mitsu are doing the same thing too.

Edit2:
Another thing I wanted to add; losing or winning doesn't entirely define how good a player is, because there's always luck involved. What really define how good you are, is your reactions and after-applications post positive reaction. Having good luck, and using that luck, are different things. Anyway, what I'm getting at is; If you lose a match don't hide on the back of your tool, because by doing so You'll mislead yourselves into more losing. I don't know if that's clear, I can't think of a right way to write my thoughts. Anyway don't let bad luck to bother you, because it can always be there. So there's no point in getting mad at something one can't control. Just enjoy the game, and play as good as you can, apply all that you can.

Edit3:
One more thing, the match timer is also Sig's friend. If you hit first, if you are winning by having more life left than your opponent, don't chase them, let them come. Be ready to welcome them heavily. If you've won the first round, by time, it means your are already winning the match. Let the pressure to built on them, and when they less expected, go and fully unload out-loud on them. Boom, bam, dead on a flash!

 

[VortexR18]

Jink are u a high level player? lol

 

[Amanda]

he souns like one ^^ but i know very well what he try`s to tell us =)

 

[Jink]

Jink are u a high level player? lol

I've been paying as Sig since SoulBlade, that's all I'll say. But that alone doesn't make me any better than anyone starting at SC4, with lots of dedication and same-updated knowledge. I just got years of experience; gatherings, tournaments, etc. But that's not important anyway. just learn to learn.

I can say that I always master my characters. Now, having complete control over a gambling tool doesn't completely control the outcome of a gamble. Winning and losing will always be there, what we must always maintain control over, is our reactions. Players who wins tournaments are the ones whom manage to endure the pressure, and are able to play as they normally would at the comfort of their rooms in their houses.

I also learn from everyone here in the forums.

For any beginner: Never learn by granted. This means, don't read and apply without test and early rehearsals. Knowledge is nothing if your fingers can't process it.

For any average: Develop executions to second-nature level, without letting it control you. This means to act fast but not blindly.

For any advanced: Don't fear. Keep it cool, keep it simply, keep it smart. This means to do as necessary, you never know when you'll encounter an opponent who pays extra attention to what you do. Don't show your winning cards too early.

Along with these:
1. Never miss opportunities; Guard punishments, Whiff punishments, etc.
2. Learn your opponent's reactions; If your opponent stops your attempts, watch and apply the counter for there attempt along with matching follow possibilities. Example: Jumps vs 2As, jumping is way better that just Ging a 2A, just as crouching against High is better GIing it, and as stepping Bs is better than GIing, and GIing is easier in tight situations.
3. Be mindful about your opponent's awareness. Quickly judge if are good or scrubs as for they have to be treated very differently. Is impossible to MixUp against a player who's not thinking, just as it is dumb to not admit your opponent's level of skill, if you don't in time, it might be too late.

 

[VortexR18]

Jink, i really look up to you. Even before i joined this forum, i saw ur name in CF giving great advice out. Im under the impression ur a very skilled and talented player, which i bet u are. My question is....

....how come u arent on the ladder? My one wish is that id see a Siegfried player up at the top of the ladder, and im guessing ur the closest one to ever achieving that. I mean, KDZ aside since he ditched him.

Id love to see where u rank and where our siegfried can go too.

EDIT: ZOMG I forgot about kPc! PROPS to u my friend!!!

 

[Cubby]

Since I'm a cass main and I've been looking through the sieg section to come up with strats to beat him, I'm going to have to agree with andur and say cass is defintely at disadvantage in this matchup. Sieg is probably one of the biggest threats to cass in this game. I play against a sieg main offline a lot, and it's hard to get any momentum going against him. Online, sieg just has better tools for devastating mixups, his WS AA from wakeup is stupid fast in moderate lag and catches me everytime, even when I'm anticipating it. Also, his mid hilt hit from stance mixed with that annoying low kick from stance, both of which do unshakeable stun, are annoyingly cheap online.

The single biggest advantage sieg has over cass is range to be sure. If you don't know cass well, it really seems like she can hit you hard from close, mid, or far range and you might think she has no apparent weakness in the range department. But if you do know her, you'll realize that all of her heavy damage and mind games are really only mid to close range, whereas sieg can simply stay out of this range and still have a lot more options. Exploit this fact and she goes down pretty easily. Don't stay SO far out that she has the opportunity to do far range stuff like jumping slash 22B+K or the long range ass hit that cass scrubs love to use (even though they are both linear as hell), just stay far enough to be out of her effective close range. This really can only come from experience fighting her, but once you know it, she's done. Andur has already listed all of cass' frame traps, which are a good part of her game, and yet they are all mid to close range ONLY.

Basically, think of cass' range game like this and you will know what to do:

Close: very dangerous --> Close-Mid: dangerous --> Mid: kinda dangerous --> Mid-Long: WEAK --> Long: suprisingly ok

Mid-Long range is her weakest spot, so try to keep her there. This is also naturally where sieg is at his best so you can see why I think cass fails vs sieg.

Andur is also correct in that she has virtually no good lows (offline anyway, online, her 1A is pretty godly but if someone abuses this all day and beats you with it, consider them garbage) and the only fast lows she has do not knock down, or do any significant damage, so there really is no need to duck against her. Her 33K canned string into K, A+K, or throw is fast and probably one of her best low mixups so I use this a lot, but again, it's stupid short range only and 33K alone does crap damage and does not knock down even on CH, so it's only good for a poke. Her 1K is alright for a low, decently quick, has TJ properties, and on CH, she can get a decent combo or tech trap off it, but the 1K itself does crap damage on NH, is short range only, is glitchy so it doesn't even hit some characters like lizzy, and is unsafe on block, so it's not abusable. If she tries it and you managed to block it, you earned your right to punish the shit out of her. FC 1B is probably her best quick low with decent range, but it's linear as hell, does not knock down either, and is only good for a poke with ok damage. However, beware that if she hits you with this low (and she will hit often with it), she has big advantage after it and anything she pulls out after that hit will probably stuff anything you can pull out, so don't try to retaliate if she hits you with it.

Cass is strongest when she's fishing for a CH, or punishing a whiff in her effective close-mid range, so sieg can play keep-away with her like nobody's business. His 3B... lol you should abuse this vs cass, rapes her with CH at range if she tries anything to close in, and most of his A's easily stop her from trying to step his 3B. I swear his 3B is one of the best 3B's in the game. So best strategy vs cass I think would be to space her and be patient, don't try to close in on her, get some hits in then let her come to you. And be sure to give her a nice welcome when she does.

 

[Jink]

Jink, i really look up to you. Even before i joined this forum, i saw ur name in CF giving great advice out. Im under the impression ur a very skilled and talented player, which i bet u are. My question is....

....how come u arent on the ladder? My one wish is that id see a Siegfried player up at the top of the ladder, and im guessing ur the closest one to ever achieving that. I mean, KDZ aside since he ditched him.

Id love to see where u rank and where our siegfried can go too.

Thanks VortexR18. But don't take my word up that high, as for as much knowledge it seems that I might have, is not compared to the efforts of the real players on top, and that are globally recognized. I just do my best every time.

My absence issues on videos and LADDER: I'm 25, I'm taking care of my grandpa and my down-syndrome uncle (my best friend), I'm working on art projects, fighting the government, spreading the word about Tesla's free electricity, etc. and my PS3 got YLOD, I'm occasionally using my bro's PS3 when ever he lets me to use, which I can't rely on for big things as the LADDER, I even quit playing SF4's championship mode, simply because is not worth it since my bro will be leaving soon and the PS3 with him.

I want to join the LADDER and test my luck there, but is not going to happen until I get myself my own PS3-Slim.

Anyway, I'm not here for credit, if I was that much interested for recognition, I would have been recording and posting vids already. Back in SC3 I tried, but life can have drastic sudden changes.

... ok, this is off-topic enough. Back to Cass.

 

[Tiamat]

I'm not on the ladder either even though I won 2 tournaments in this game. Fight the ladder! *high fives Jink*

 

[onlywingedangel]

wall of txt, DO NOT WANT.

jk i will read it, apparently im just doing too much unsafe moves. well i'll figure that out when i manage to start playing SCIV again. Whether getting the PS3 version or fixing my xbox. mostly the latter since my Xbox version of SCIV is currently MIA.

Close: very dangerous --> Close-Mid: dangerous --> Mid: kinda dangerous --> Mid-Long: WEAK --> Long: suprisingly ok

You know what i might think the reason i do bad aganist some Cassandra's is the fact that my style with Sieg is often very up close. if not mid-close or close. I rarely fight at mid-long or long range because i like to charge at my opponents (Not at the beginning of the match but during the battle)

I've been paying as Sig since SoulBlade, that's all I'll say. But that alone doesn't make me any better than anyone starting at SC4, with lots of dedication and same-updated knowledge. I just got years of experience; gatherings, tournaments, etc. But that's not important anyway. just learn to learn.

Huh even though i've played almost all of the soul series i never got being a good player because

in SC-1 i used Maxi and i just button mashed my way to victory
SC-2 i used link the only character other than Siegf that was my main
SC-3 I spammed the Iron Sword's anti-A.I Move
SC-4 I atcually started how to use a character that was mainstream. hehe

 

[Jink]

wall of txt, DO NOT WANT.

jk i will read it, apparently im just doing too much unsafe moves. well i'll figure that out when i manage to start playing SCIV again. Whether getting the PS3 version or fixing my xbox. mostly the latter since my Xbox version of SCIV is currently MIA.

That's another thing I wanted to talk about. An unsafe move is not really unsafe if your opponents shows no signs of punishing it properly. If by studying your opponent's reaction you spot such lack of application, make use of it too.

Edit: @onlywingedangel: PS3 Slim is at $299.99. Oops, did I just made advertisement? Nah, j/k.

Huh even though i've played almost all of the soul series i never got being a good player because

in SC-1 i used Maxi and i just button mashed my way to victory
SC-2 i used link the only character other than Siegf that was my main
SC-3 I spammed the Iron Sword's anti-A.I Move
SC-4 I atcually started how to use a character that was mainstream. hehe

In SB, I was too young to understand fighting games competitively.
In SC1, I was old enough to compete by beat adult players. I was called the king-scrub, because out of the kids I was the strongest and persistent.
In SC2, I was truly introduced to the world of fighting games. I made new friends and started to travel a lot to different arcades to challenge other players. My friends and training partners 24/7 were Dezz, TNPR. I also played with Molddred, Joyo, Angrel-san, DarkKnight, and many others.
In SC3, the great Omega (OmegaMitsu by that time) came to my house, we had a small gathering of like 10 players trying to beat him. I'd learned a lot from him. I also learn from Mono, the great player who's keeping the league alive in PR.
In SC4... just playing it, enjoying it as much as I can online. I'm basically out of offline competition. There are good players around here in IL, but I got no time and money for travel yet...

 

[VortexR18]

Then again, i dont see how you can win consistently with safe moves with Siegfried. He's a risky guy, and thats how he's played.

Unless ur like Jink and can JagA 18 times in a row to win a match lol. XD

 

[Cubby]

I don't think Jink means to mostly use safe moves, he just means you should use unsafe moves if your opponent does not realize that it's unsafe and doesn't punish it. And that's a good call, I don't know sieg enough to know everything unsafe about him, and that's a big deal when I play cass who is supposed to be good at punishing unsafe stuff.

Honestly, if you know all of cass' frame traps, and don't fall for them, you just erased about 60-70% of her effectiveness right there. They're not hard to see coming and every advanced cass you fight will use the same ones. That's usually how she fishes for CH, which is a big chunk of her game, the rest is whiff punish and poke.

This is actually pretty sad because I'm helping you guys kick my ass lol... I'm gonna go back to researching anti-sieg strats now.

 

[onlywingedangel]

That's another thing I wanted to talk about. An unsafe move is not really unsafe if your opponents shows no signs of punishing it properly. If by studying your opponent's reaction you spot such lack of application, make use of it too.

Edit: @onlywingedangel: PS3 Slim is at $299.99. Oops, did I just made advertisement? Nah, j/k.

I already have a PS3 btw, all I play is Metal Gear Online but i suck at that game so i really want to buy something else.
I really want to face you Jink, i have fought only 1 siegfried online that can beat me, although like you said doesen't prove i am the best or anything.

Then again, i dont see how you can win consistently with safe moves with Siegfried. He's a risky guy, and thats how he's played.

I know that all too well.

In SB, I was too young to understand fighting games competitively.
In SC1, I was old enough to compete by beat adult players. I was called the king-scrub, because out of the kids I was the strongest and persistent.
In SC2, I was truly introduced to the world of fighting games. I made new friends and started to travel a lot to different arcades to challenge other players. My friends and training partners 24/7 were Dezz, TNPR. I also played with Molddred, Joyo, Angrel-san, DarkKnight, and many others.
In SC3, the great Omega (OmegaMitsu by that time) came to my house, we had a small gathering of like 10 players trying to beat him. I learned a lot from him.
In SC4... just playing it, enjoying it as much as I can online. I'm basically out of offline competition. There are good players around here in IL, but I got no time and money for travel yet..

IN SC-1 lol I have story to tell one time at my cousins house i was like wat 10? I played Siegfried and the only move i knew was any i happen to beat everyone, except for my atcual cousin who knew how to play and just side stepped owned me lol.

SC-2 I just well played it single player i never faced anyone else.

SC-3 once again i only played single player and i was never good with any character in that game.

SC-4 thats when online started, and thats when I started to atcually "play" for real.

I am unable to travel because well im underage and hell i failed my drivers test (the written one, dont worry i'll pass it sometime i only got a 78 hehe) im in NJ so i hear the community is very big around here.

I don't know sieg enough to know everything unsafe about him, and that's a big deal when I play cass who is supposed to be good at punishing unsafe stuf

Hey thats just like me and Cassandra, i barely fight her and i don't really analyze her moves i don't know what moves go into techtraps, combos.etc. in fact i think she is the only character i don't know much about. I pretty much see allot of every other character. Espicially Astaroth i see way too much of him.

 

[Jink]

I don't think Jink means to mostly use safe moves, he just means you should use unsafe moves if your opponent does not realize that it's unsafe and doesn't punish it. And that's a good call, I don't know sieg enough to know everything unsafe about him, and that's a big deal when I play cass who is supposed to be good at punishing unsafe stuff.

Yup, playing unnecessary safe means limiting yourself. Just open up enough to see how your opponents reacts, without exposing yourself too much. Remember, Sig has 2 rounds to exploit opponents.

Honestly, if you know all of cass' frame traps, and don't fall for them, you just erased about 60-70% of her effectiveness right there. They're not hard to see coming and every advanced cass you fight will use the same ones. That's usually how she fishes for CH, which is a big chunk of her game, the rest is whiff punish and poke.

Yup, that's what I meant by "by-the-book players." (I don't mean you, btw)

This is actually pretty sad because I'm helping you guys kick my ass lol... I'm gonna go back to researching anti-sieg strats now.

Heheheh, get better. What doesn't kill you, makes you more strong.

 

[ShenYu]

B6 more guys. Keep her out and YOU WIN FOR FREEEEEEzzz!!1~~

 

[onlywingedangel]

btw:

is that EXTREMELY low sword poke by Cass GI-able? I've tried so many times and I can't do it! Thats like coward fighting like im not even kidding. Poking you so damn low, What a jackass. I understand poking with a 1K or a 6B but damn is THAT low.

 

[Cubby]

btw:

is that EXTREMELY low sword poke by Cass GI-able? I've tried so many times and I can't do it! Thats like coward fighting like im not even kidding. Poking you so damn low, What a jackass. I understand poking with a 1K or a 6B but damn is THAT low.

FC 1B is probably her best quick low with decent range, but it's linear as hell, does not knock down either, and is only good for a poke with ok damage. However, beware that if she hits you with this low (and she will hit often with it), she has big advantage after it and anything she pulls out after that hit will probably stuff anything you can pull out, so don't try to retaliate if she hits you with it.

You talking about this one? FC 1B?

GI-able: yes, but not easy. It has a little startup lag so timing the GI is hard. It is her best ranged low, online and off. Decent range and big advantage on hit. She crouches REAL low so a lot of shit whiffs over her head when she does it, including some mids.

No point trying to GI it especially online, just step it cuz it's linear as hell. Or take the poke damage cuz that's all it is, a poke. It's not any cheaper than say... lizard crawl lows, and I only use it to fish for CH.

GGs last weekend btw. Remember the witch cass? I don't generally abuse 1A that much if at all (FC 1B and 33K low kick series are my go-to lows), but since your low/mid abuse game was in full swing, and you were throwing taunts after winning with that abuse, I assumed it was all fair game and you wanted to play that way.

Still GGs though, your sieg is commendable.

 

[onlywingedangel]

GGs last weekend btw. Remember the witch cass? I don't generally abuse 1A that much if at all (FC 1B and 33K low kick series are my go-to lows), but since your low/mid abuse game was in full swing, and you were throwing taunts after winning with that abuse, I assumed it was all fair game and you wanted to play that way.

Oh so that was you could barely see that PSN, I always throw taunts after winning its liek what I do.
If theres anything that would be laggy-low abuse online for sieg its the following moves

SRSH K
2A+B
SBH A+B
1AA

Recently I have tried to play Online without doing ANY of those moves, and its kind of hard. Because obviously SRSH K is one of siegfried's best moves for a mixup.

low/mid abuse game

Your probably talking about my usual Mixup 3B SCH A A B6 3B SCH [A] SSH A mixups. They are pretty confusing
I don't remember how matches go though was I really abusing lows? If I am please say so because online its very hard for me as an onliner to recognize this.

 

[Cubby]

I wouldn't say you were really abusing lows, otherwise I wouldn't say GGs. Although it was more than I usually get playing with the 2 offline local siegs I play. Online laggy lows don't bother me that much though, I understand it's a different game than offline, but I will fight fire with fire if it comes to it. Cass doesn't have any lows that will knock you down on NH other than 1A (cuz 8A+B, K does not count), so all she has is throws. Break them and all she has is low pokes.

I wouldn't say SRSH K is really lag abuse, although it does work better online. It's like saying mitsu 2KB is lag abuse when it's really not, because both are fast enough to require prediction blocking whether offline or online.

Your spacing was pretty good, kept me at bay most of the time. I had to work pretty hard to close in, that's the way you should be fighting cass.

As for judging which lows are considered cheap online, I just generally stay away from anything kinda slow that knocks down on NH. For this reason, I trained my cass to do pretty much nothing but CH fishing and low pokes, my taki uses no bombs unless in a combo, and my asta does no 1A or 1[A]B. All my characters throw a bit more to make up for not using lows, but throws can be broken easier than trying to block lag lows imo. This all changes once my opponent tosses laggy lows my way though.

 

[onlywingedangel]

I wouldn't say you were really abusing lows, otherwise I wouldn't say GGs. Although it was more than I usually get playing with the 2 offline local siegs I play. Online laggy lows don't bother me that much though, I understand it's a different game than offline, but I will fight fire with fire if it comes to it. Cass doesn't have any lows that will knock you down on NH other than 1A (cuz 8A+B, K does not count), so all she has is throws. Break them and all she has is low pokes.

I wouldn't say SRSH K is really lag abuse, although it does work better online. It's like saying mitsu 2KB is lag abuse when it's really not, because both are fast enough to work well offline too.

Your spacing was pretty good, kept me at bay most of the time. I had to work pretty hard to close in, that's the way you should be fighting cass.

Finnaly someone who isn't completely offended by a couple of online laggy lows (not that I try and purposely lag and purposely intend to lag low)

You see Cassandra while to other Siegfried players is not much of a threat, My playstyle is like Pitbull Sieg, its how I learned him Jink I believe said earlier Siegfried is a momentum killer which he is, By I try to play aggresively,

Playing Cassandras goes against everything I've ever learned and done in SC so you can imangine its quite hard for me to completely flip my style to the other side. Because I rarely try to play keep away or try to be far as possible with Sieg.(I was expiermenting with 4A and it was working pretty well.) Getting Close with Sieg is what I do and I am at a knowledge loss trying to play keep away with him..well not really but im not used to it. Also I can't break throws and If I do its accidental. I can see throws coming but I never try to break them i only duck them and since Cass has a low throw well thats not working out too well.

If you're ever on PLZ, I implore you invite me to a match I need to get better at fighting Cassandras.