So... can I have tips on beating Nightmare?

Bloodredtyrant

[01] Neophyte
My main problem with Nightmare is his ridiculous range. On most stages, it feels like the match starts while I'm already in Nightmare's optimal range. I play Tira, so I'm always trying to get in and he's always backing away from me. Nightmare's speed is a little too fast for his damage output and range, I personally feel. But rather than just complaining, I want to learn the match-up.

What I want to know is, where are the gaps in his strings? What moves are unsafe? Where do you, the Nightmare mains, find yourselves getting punished the most? What don't you want me to know if I should ever face you?
 

Doctor_Gore

[08] Mercenary
I haven't played Tira yet, but you need to find out what Tiras best options concerning range and anti-step are.
Get close to him with a good range move and interrupt any Nightmare stance with 2A.
Nightmare is slow and unsafe, find your best block punishing moves for him.
Almost all fast Nightmare move are high > duck and punish.
Find a good range move and hit him while he steps back, so you get a counter and (hopefully) a good combo.
And most important: read the player, not the char he plays.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Need help too.
Lets start saying i have no problem until Night gets in the glowing stance D: that seems to give advantage on block on every string.
Also CE but i guess that is simply OP
 

Doctor_Gore

[08] Mercenary
Glowing stance?
Are you talking about Terror Charge oder Grim stride (GS)?

His CE is actually pretty weak.
Nightmare has no CE combos, it's always guessing for the Nightmare player.
But he has 2 CE options: the regular one, which is simply blocklable
and the unblockable with longer animation, which is steppable to the side.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Glowing stance?
Are you talking about Terror Charge oder Grim stride (GS)?
i never used nightmare so i don't know the name but the one purple glowing that gives HUGE block stun (block stun is infact the issue)
I suspect its more a matter of ignorance, about frames and stance openings.. yet making a pressure game so problematic after block and hard to read without data is not a good idea.

His CE is actually pretty weak.
Nightmare has no CE combos, it's always guessing for the Nightmare player.
But he has 2 CE options: the regular one, which is simply blocklable
and the unblockable with longer animation, which is steppable to the side.
CE deals lot of damage and let NM just use it at disadvantage when you can supposedly break his pressure.
Also can break pressure itself after hits being an universal tool.
Its almost guaranteed in the current status.

Most CE are horribly OP but NM, reflecting Attacks, being unblockable and dealing too much damage makes it excessive imho.

Lets not start with the argument i should step when + on frames and being pressured. That is not an argument at all.
 

Doctor_Gore

[08] Mercenary
Okay, but isn't that a problem that you have (almost) with every char?
After you block a safe string and your opponent does random CE you are at risk of eating it.

The stance you talk about is the Terror Charge. You have more damage and access to some additional or enhanced moves. I don't know the exact frames, but I'm really surprised that you say it's all safe! There is a special blockstun move which must be safe: NBS A+B, you can GI the third hit easily.

Maybe you should take a look at the terror charge moves in training mode, I dont think they are all safe...
but if they are, tell me please! :)
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Okay, but isn't that a problem that you have (almost) with every char?
After you block a safe string and your opponent does random CE you are at risk of eating it.
Only NM reflect Attacks, AND is unblockable

Others will be stopped and CH by an answer at + frames.

About terror charge i was exactly asking for direction
Are they really + on block mostly?
What should i look for briefly?
Any mid string interrupt on block (i hope GI is not the only answer)?

Also needed the name ty
 

Doctor_Gore

[08] Mercenary
The problem is, we don't have frame data yet.
I think they will be posted soon but it's a lot of work.
Nightmare is an unsafe character, I bet he has only like 1 or 2 moves which are + on block.
The only option you have is to test it in training mode.

I also cant tell if you have a good interrupt, because I don't know which character you play.
Most characters do have a good 2A, that's a good string interrupter.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Made a short video:

Don't you think is a bit misleading posting a vid deliberately using wrong spacing to prove a point that doesn't exist?

Not to mention most characters have dame problems on block unless they are frame trap that cannot be spammed but needs proper setups and all of them were destroyed by NM new moves (explosin and CE) and new SC mechanics…(universal GI and RE).

Worst NM problems though are:
-CE (how many did you see miss in tournaments vids?)
-Explosion (see above)
-Oki damage
-Wake up options
-Range
-Safety (yet got many moves deliberately adjusted to not being punished by ranged punishers… ex: raph 236:B).
-Overall damage (a successfull step, or random crouch takes away twice to 3 times most other character can, defeating the point of playing safe at frame disadvantage or even blocking on many cases just push your luck….).
-most punishers have been nerfed and cannot compete with mixup damage (and i am not certainly talking about 2K).
-insane throw range

In the end its more a matter of mixups whereas NM just needs to win 3 60% guesses opposed to lose about 8 40%... that until he has the CE… at that point his guesses are even easier.
Add the dumb spammable GI and RE system totally in favour of hard hitters and you know why people complain.

Asking even to get more + on blocks (another overall nerf across the roster, and unfortunately even + on HIT got lot of nerfs) its a bit too much.

Not to mention most low kicks are -2 to -4 on CH…
 
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SwingShot

[01] Neophyte
I was not suggesting using 2K for everyone, I'm sure each character has a much better fast poke to interrupt. Like soph 236B which makes the matchup 10000000 to -99.

True, with spacing you can cause 2K to whiff, but not the other moves I mentioned above. Playing a lot vs Ivy she even punishes the starter without going in GS so I think the point that I exagerated a bit in the video is still 100% valid.

Anyone who complains about Nightmare has no ideea of the other atrocities in the game that are truly overpowered.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
I was not suggesting using 2K for everyone, I'm sure each character has a much better fast poke to interrupt. Like soph 236B which makes the matchup 10000000 to -99.

True, with spacing you can cause 2K to whiff, but not the other moves I mentioned above. Playing a lot vs Ivy she even punishes the starter without going in GS so I think the point that I exagerated a bit in the video is still 100% valid.

Anyone who complains about Nightmare has no ideea of the other atrocities in the game that are truly overpowered.
Trying to not lose temper...despite i think that vid and this discussion is pointless.
1)Read why people complain about Nightmare
2) don't use the best punisher in game as measuring tool expecially when said tool is heavily unsafe AND linear as if you saying a single unfavourable matchup makes NM balanced.
3) i won't even mention how HEAVILY unsafe moves got not only safe but now have counter priority if you even try to punish or getting near (unless you deliberately use wrong spacing).
4) Start making that vid with proper spacing and soulcharge…...since NM can stay in SC all match.


This is only for your personal interest since i am 100% sure that if a balancing patch will come, NM will be on top of it with (with a couple of characters for sure) lot of "reworks" .
They don't even need to check forums between Online stats and offlline tournaments a couple characters moves and attributes will surely catch obvious attention.


That vid will only make people more angry once they discover why is wrong and how they get similar answers on NM forum.
 

SwingShot

[01] Neophyte
I'm not angry, sorry for appearing that way.

I saw a lot of characters nerfed for the wrong reasons in other games as well (Alist in mk for one example) while other infinitisimaly more broken characters didn't get any changes because nobody complained about them and they ended up dominating for a long time.

90% of the NM complaints are because of his soul charge moves explosion counter, since they have no ideea how easily it is countered. Then they complain about NM pressure which is non existant because most of the complainers don't even bother to interupt the stance transitions or don't know how easy it is, and it is very easy. You can even interrupt 66KK in soul charge, it's that bad.

I still don't understand what you're trying to say. What of soul charge, it doesn't change his frame data and you can still interupt GS the same way. There is no spacing where GS is actually uninteruptible unless you whiff the first hit which is certain doom. Spacing only covers very little options, and mostly in NSS, since GS is and will be interupted for most of the cast with long range pokes, which they do have.

One can't possibly complain about nightmare when moves such as Sieg aB exist.
 

darkfender

[10] Knight
Are you saying that having access to free unlimited SC is fair paired with a move that takes away more health On block than most characters strings on HIT and also gives advantage?

Is soulcharge something of minimal importance to you? (as if it didn t give huge blockstuns and heavy guard damage).

Also the idea that both explosions can be countered is naive.
They succeed 90% (possibly more) of times both online and in offline tournaments.

The fact that there are other broken things don't change the fact nightmare and Ivy have most (maybe azwel i don't know him enough to talk).
In regards to nerf.
I perfectly know that most time nerfs are badly thought.
As a raph player who got nerfed TWICE in scV from low tier to bottom tier for no reason i know namco is not famous for well thought nerfs.
Yet i expect a nerf on AG cancel next patch (due to insanely difficult execution you possibly never seen it).
Just hope will get something in Exchange or at least won't have any other nerf but what is needed, but if i could choose i would totally ask the nerf myself.
Nightmare would still be high tier without the CE.
Would still be without the Explosions.
Overall speed, safety (at proper range), tracking and damage makes it a 8:2 matchup against any character without something nerf worthy itself.
 

SwingShot

[01] Neophyte
Ok so the reason for nerf is that it works so good online and in offline tournaments on people that don't practice the matchup?
I've watch tournaments and I watch them all if I can, the only way where this happens is where people don't know anything about NM.

Sonic LOST to Nightmare AGA spam rofl. That's not Nightmare being overpowered, it's Sonic not knowing the matchup.

You're a Raph main? I also main Raph and Nightmare can't hold a candle, 3(B) destroys everything he does with TC and SC, each hit that puts him in a stance is guaranteed death for him and he can't even press any button without getting pulverized.

I've been playing Nightmare since SC3 and he is more or less identical in terms of safety and punishment. He is thought as a high risk high reward character and the risk is very much real as once one knows the matchup one can basically shut down everything but 3K and K.

SC on Nightmare? Huge blockstun and guard damage? This applies only on 6BBB as the other ones will never get out. Ever. Everything is interuptible, even 6KK, as I said. Any decent player with Nightmare matchup knowledge will always shut everything down.

If 6BBB is actually what the issue is with Nightmare (since I can't possibly find a scenario where anything else he has is actually useful) it's sincerely not a good argument. This vertical is very good, but remember, high risk high reward. Just do it and get sidestepped, it's RO time or 50%. There's no scenario that guarantees 6BBB for Nighmare, he just has to close his eyes and do it and hope for the best, which is exactly what the character is intended to have as design.

I'd complain more about SC KB if we need to actually pinpoint very strong moves as it gives a 2A+B on CH and you can endlessy continue doing so.
 
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darkfender

[10] Knight
Ok so the reason for nerf is that it works so good online and in offline tournaments on people that don't practice the matchup?
I've watch tournaments and I watch them all if I can, the only way where this happens is where people don't know anything about NM.

Sonic LOST to Nightmare AGA spam rofl. That's not Nightmare being overpowered, it's Sonic not knowing the matchup.

You're a Raph main? I also main Raph and Nightmare can't hold a candle, 3(B) destroys everything he does with TC and SC, each hit that puts him in a stance is guaranteed death for him and he can't even press any button without getting pulverized.

I've been playing Nightmare since SC3 and he is more or less identical in terms of safety and punishment. He is thought as a high risk high reward character and the risk is very much real as once one knows the matchup one can basically shut down everything but 3K and K.

SC on Nightmare? Hige blockstun and guard damage? This applies only on 6BBB as the other ones will never get out. Ever. Everything is interuptible, even 6KK, as I said. Any decent player with Nightmare matchup knowledge will always shut everything down.

If 6BBB is actually what the issue is with Nightmare (since I can't possibly find a scenario where anything else he has is actually useful) it's sincerely not a good argument. This vertical is very good, but remember, high risk high reward. Just do it and get sidestepped, it's RO time or 50%. There's no scenario that guarantees 6BBB for Nighmare, he just has to close his eyes and do it and hope for the best, which is exactly what the character is intended to have as design.

I'd complain more about SC KB if we need to actually pinpoint very strong moves as it gives a 2A+B on CH and you can endlessy continue doing so.
Well i think i could discuss with someone not saying that a vertical is weak because it doesn t track and affirming to be a raph main.

e fact you seems to totally ignore the matchup yourself doesn t help either.
And NO you should know how nightmare used to suffer raph 236B as a punisher and how it was miraculously made safe if you really mained raphael.
As much as you should have noticed how raph has huge damage issues compared to nightmare being on the opposite side.
Not to mention you think everyone is scIV Hilde AND sophitia at the same time.

The part about risk/reward is the insult to injury (once again you said to main raphael since when?).
Applying your logic to raphael it would be a trash tier.
Since its clearly mid/high (for now) i can get why you think nightmare is OK.


P.S. grats on using 3(B) as Nightmare counter.
Its the worst prep entry on block if anything 4B Always used to be but "Just do it and get sidestepped, it's RO time or 50%." -.-
Also a sidestep from NM earns you 100+ damage and a strong KD game opposing to? :)
Did you talk about risk/reward early?
 

SwingShot

[01] Neophyte
Raph is not weak, never said that, he's a power house. His cancel combos and the ability to cancel RE with a combo without having to go to guessing game is insane. 6B is also insane. 4B+K B tracking is off the grid overpowered broken safe, but he deserves/needs it so no complaints here. So I pretty much think I haven't disagreed with anything on Raph's side with you yet ;)

Maybe I was misunderstood, 3(B) done yolo is as useless as NM 6BBB done yolo. It's the best tool Raph has against nightmare explosion as you can do it on reaction easy and interrupt him while going in cancel shenanigans. It's working wonders for me on any NM i've encountered, and I've spent some time in training mode to practice NM options against it for when i'm playing NM and I encounter a Raph player. Not much to do at all, it shuts down everything.

Also, the argument is not in black and white, I never said the vertical was weak, it's very good. Just not overpowered. I never said NM was trash tier, just not broken.

There is a huge difference between top tier and broken, the kind of difference that justifies nerfs or not.

And repeating myself a bit, it's very funny that people complain about NM stuff that isn't even the main problem.

As I've said, I think SC KB is as close to overpowered as it gets. I would have understood any argument towards this angle, as his fastest standing punisher going into SC again and repeating this forever will mainly shut down any opponent from pressing buttons. After seeing how horrendously good this is I can't even think of a good reason to waste SC on 6BBB when I can have KB at all times.
 
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