RT0wn
[10] Knight
Lmfao. This.
Soul Calibur V Raphael - Nerfs? Buffs? Change Of Style?
- Thread starter ShenRii
- Start date
Lmfao. This.
ShenRii
[09] Warrior
That would be nice, make him more 'serious'. Remove the funny looking attacks, like Prep K:K and 1K (altho I really love this move).
Some ideas on Raph stances:
New Prep (assuming they refuse to give him back his multiple preps)
Prep A - Same, make it track to Raph's left and give advantage on hit. (Make it slightly unsafe, around -14?)
Prep 4A - 4A, please give this Crumple Stun on CH.
Prep 4[A] - Raphael will cancel his 4A into VE.
Prep B series - Same, but give Prep B(B)~Prep better transition frames
Prep 4B - 8WR 4B
Prep K - High impact, right side mid kick (similar to NM's 3K). Tracks to Raph's right, Double Over Stun on CH. (-15?)
Prep B+K - removed, since there's Prep 4A now.
Prep Throw - *This throw animation will be different from the normal throw animation.
Prep 2~SEA - Same
New VE: Bigger Step, no more Auto-Evade.
VE A - Same
VE 2A - Quick Low Horizontal Swipe, Low damage (-16 on block)
VE B series - Same
VE K - Same
VE (K) - Chargeable version of VE K, huge blockstun + soul gauge.
VE A+B - Slow Horizontal High, slight block stun, decent gauge.
VE 4/6 - Raphael teleports while in VE (not the current teleport animation), 4/6 just moves him forward or backwards (about 2 character spaces). Not in front or behind the enemy. Recovers neutral.
VE Throw - Same deal. Remove the blood suck on Voldo. Raph is not blind!
Jump Evade (7_8_9G, Raph has no normal jump)
JE ABB - Hori Mid, Vert Mid, 236B. JE AB is NC, JE ABB is NCC.
JE 1A - SC 2 1A (Low hori swipe)
JE 4/6 - Raphael teleports while JEing, similar to VE 4/6.
Notes:
*Raphael will push the enemy with his sword hilt, if it connects, Raphael will stab the enemy's heart (15 dmg) while the enemy's being pushed back, does a little twist (20 dmg), then pulling his rapier out (15 dmg) (Total of 50 dmg). The enemy will drop kneeling down then fall face down feet away.
EDIT:
1. Typo error, 60 dmg should be 50 dmg.
2. Forgot to add VE Throw.
3. Prep 4aG to Prep 4[A]
Some ideas on Raph stances:
New Prep (assuming they refuse to give him back his multiple preps)
Prep A - Same, make it track to Raph's left and give advantage on hit. (Make it slightly unsafe, around -14?)
Prep 4A - 4A, please give this Crumple Stun on CH.
Prep 4[A] - Raphael will cancel his 4A into VE.
Prep B series - Same, but give Prep B(B)~Prep better transition frames
Prep 4B - 8WR 4B
Prep K - High impact, right side mid kick (similar to NM's 3K). Tracks to Raph's right, Double Over Stun on CH. (-15?)
Prep B+K - removed, since there's Prep 4A now.
Prep Throw - *This throw animation will be different from the normal throw animation.
Prep 2~SEA - Same
New VE: Bigger Step, no more Auto-Evade.
VE A - Same
VE 2A - Quick Low Horizontal Swipe, Low damage (-16 on block)
VE B series - Same
VE K - Same
VE (K) - Chargeable version of VE K, huge blockstun + soul gauge.
VE A+B - Slow Horizontal High, slight block stun, decent gauge.
VE 4/6 - Raphael teleports while in VE (not the current teleport animation), 4/6 just moves him forward or backwards (about 2 character spaces). Not in front or behind the enemy. Recovers neutral.
VE Throw - Same deal. Remove the blood suck on Voldo. Raph is not blind!
Jump Evade (7_8_9G, Raph has no normal jump)
JE ABB - Hori Mid, Vert Mid, 236B. JE AB is NC, JE ABB is NCC.
JE 1A - SC 2 1A (Low hori swipe)
JE 4/6 - Raphael teleports while JEing, similar to VE 4/6.
Notes:
*Raphael will push the enemy with his sword hilt, if it connects, Raphael will stab the enemy's heart (15 dmg) while the enemy's being pushed back, does a little twist (20 dmg), then pulling his rapier out (15 dmg) (Total of 50 dmg). The enemy will drop kneeling down then fall face down feet away.
EDIT:
1. Typo error, 60 dmg should be 50 dmg.
2. Forgot to add VE Throw.
3. Prep 4aG to Prep 4[A]
RT0wn
[10] Knight
I suppose there was a big change in attitude between SC2 and 4. But, he has always been snobby, and now he's a psuedo-vampire. If that's not an excuse to be snobby I don't know what is. However, he has lost the "grit" that his first incarnation provided. The intro video showing Raphael staggering through the streets of France, clutching a wound, and Amy's shadowed face leading soldiers away... quite poetic. He was a shattered, desperate man back then... now he owns a castle and is doing pretty well. Where's the dirt, Namco?
Anyway... only thing I disagree with from the above is the prep throw... pressure stance with a throw? Unless it's an attack throw, like on CH or something, from B+K. And damage would need to be decreased... most stance throws don't do nearly that much damage.
Jump Evade is a pretty interesting idea. I suppose since he's a vampire he can hover a bit... that would be fun.
And keep 1K. It's very French. But you're right about Prep K:K... that's -too- French.
Anyway... only thing I disagree with from the above is the prep throw... pressure stance with a throw? Unless it's an attack throw, like on CH or something, from B+K. And damage would need to be decreased... most stance throws don't do nearly that much damage.
Jump Evade is a pretty interesting idea. I suppose since he's a vampire he can hover a bit... that would be fun.
And keep 1K. It's very French. But you're right about Prep K:K... that's -too- French.
Luff_The_Talim2
[09] Warrior
Ok. I know nowone here knows me. But Rapheal is freaggin amazing and I wanted to see your Idea's on how he could change. :D I definatly think his Preperation should have at least one move that can stop step.
ShenRii
[09] Warrior
RTOwn - If you read the 60 dmg part, it's a typo on my end. It's supposed to be 15+20+15 = 50 dmg.
If that's still too high, perhaps make it 45 dmg?
Current Prep is easily killed by step or weakened by crouching. My idea is to make Prep have a solution to every option just slightly more specific.
Prep will need to be able to catch step and have the option of throw, low or gauge dmg. In this case, I chose throw.
On hindsight, I think VE might become too strong. It's also complete. Perhaps VE 2A and VE (K) should go?
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Luff - No worries, the more the merrier. I think Prep should not have an easy step cutter, hence my rationale to have Prep A track left and Prep K track right.
Prep 4B does track both sides slightly, but that's really slow and telegraphed.
If that's still too high, perhaps make it 45 dmg?
Current Prep is easily killed by step or weakened by crouching. My idea is to make Prep have a solution to every option just slightly more specific.
Prep will need to be able to catch step and have the option of throw, low or gauge dmg. In this case, I chose throw.
On hindsight, I think VE might become too strong. It's also complete. Perhaps VE 2A and VE (K) should go?
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Luff - No worries, the more the merrier. I think Prep should not have an easy step cutter, hence my rationale to have Prep A track left and Prep K track right.
Prep 4B does track both sides slightly, but that's really slow and telegraphed.
Egg
[10] Knight
Rii pretty much voiced what I was going to say about prep. I have more to add but this will be in the future. Raph needs to be changed. Hes not a fencer anymore hes just this dude who misses a lot now....
Also I would like to see an AE attack where he evades almost in the same fasion as VE but instead of doing a salute he dodges and stabs the sword from around his back. I have a picture of what i'm talking about but its in a book I own. Il have to get that scanned.
Maybe we could revive the raosty if they make him better again.
Also I would like to see an AE attack where he evades almost in the same fasion as VE but instead of doing a salute he dodges and stabs the sword from around his back. I have a picture of what i'm talking about but its in a book I own. Il have to get that scanned.
Maybe we could revive the raosty if they make him better again.
Luff_The_Talim2
[09] Warrior
VE... Thats the one where he sidesteps right?
(forgive my ignorance)
(forgive my ignorance)
Egg
[10] Knight
Luff_The_Talim2
[09] Warrior
Oh! well then. I do think VE (k) needs to go. That move is Anti Talim on so many levels. I cant punish it even though it looks rediculously punishable. It also stops step like nothing I have seen. T-T I personally just think Raph tops characters that need to be super in close and step and junk.
Oh! is it me or does he have more range in SCIV than he did in SCIII and SCII?
And, I think in SCV they need to take his a+k and make it not do the teleport but auto dodge like it did in SCII.
Oh! is it me or does he have more range in SCIV than he did in SCIII and SCII?
And, I think in SCV they need to take his a+k and make it not do the teleport but auto dodge like it did in SCII.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
Some further comments:
1. Stances (raph's stances should all be transient)
It's unlikely he'll get more than 4-5 moves per stance. However, perhaps prep can have a defensive option (prep4) that gives you access to CH fishing, slower, tracking, push-back moves while prep6 will give you riskier, advancing pressure strings. I agree that some sort of decent-speed tracking move is more important than a low (hence i agree kick from an aggressive prep should be a 3k variant (like nightmare or maxi's).
Personally, I'd trade his VE and SE stances for auto-evades only.
2. Auto evades
IMO raph's signature moves were all taken away!
However, the 50/50 evades took away both commands for A+K (i won't miss teleports because i can't see it being implementing without ripping off cerventes' mechanics) and B+K, we may see 4/6 commands in order to differentiate between (either high+mid/mid+low or hori/vert).
Since evades do not guarantee a hit, each evade-stance should offer one way to punish people who blindly standing guard.
SEA (when dodging left-to-right high horizontals) : offers a method to enter stance at significant + frames (like SEA B)
SEB (when dodging right-to-left high horizontals) : offers a move to deal massive soul gauge damage and noticeable pushback
VE (when dodging mid/high verticals) : offers a grab (the A and B grab animations should be different such that i) the chest-drain grab will leech soul gauge meter in addition to damage and ii) the twist and neck bite should drain hp.
jumpAE (when dodging lows) : offers a low (prepK:K variant, no combo guaranteed after).
214 SC2 (when dodging mid horizontals) : Should offer a guard-crush move (to put your opponent in a post GI state).
3. Damage potential
it's been 3 straight version where raph's damage/combo potential is in the bottom tier of the cast. This means that (if this trend continues) he should gain offence from his defence, and is a prime candiate for a character with AEs, awesome tech-crouch/step moves, and aGIs.
I can see raph's damage mainly coming from pokes, or from correctly evading/aGIing an opponent's move and punishing. However, I believe he should have some CH fishing potential, such that 6BBB better be at least + on hit.
The thing is, in SC4, since 4B TC's so early and reliably, it effectively replaced auto-evades against highs. There isn't a move that replaces vertAE, because 4A is has very poor frames.
(regarding egg's post: do you mean something like nightmare's NSS b:A (where instead of side-stepping/spinning high slash, it ends in a thrust?)
4. Command allocation
imo:
A+B be dedicated to aGI moves (and his flashy flamboyant moves). We'll likely see 4A+B, 8A+B, A+B return once again, but with commands changed.
B+K be dedicated to his current directional thrusts (* give it old BB's tracking [but only to the respective side]). I'm willing to take a higher whiff-risk, but longer ranged 1-side tracking mid as opposed to either 1) short range 1 side safe tracking and 2) slow 1-side long range safe tracking. IMO his sc3 B+K series looks more cocky than than his sc4 reiteration because he turns away instead of face-palming.
A+K be dedicated to his AEs
1. Stances (raph's stances should all be transient)
It's unlikely he'll get more than 4-5 moves per stance. However, perhaps prep can have a defensive option (prep4) that gives you access to CH fishing, slower, tracking, push-back moves while prep6 will give you riskier, advancing pressure strings. I agree that some sort of decent-speed tracking move is more important than a low (hence i agree kick from an aggressive prep should be a 3k variant (like nightmare or maxi's).
Personally, I'd trade his VE and SE stances for auto-evades only.
2. Auto evades
IMO raph's signature moves were all taken away!
However, the 50/50 evades took away both commands for A+K (i won't miss teleports because i can't see it being implementing without ripping off cerventes' mechanics) and B+K, we may see 4/6 commands in order to differentiate between (either high+mid/mid+low or hori/vert).
Since evades do not guarantee a hit, each evade-stance should offer one way to punish people who blindly standing guard.
SEA (when dodging left-to-right high horizontals) : offers a method to enter stance at significant + frames (like SEA B)
SEB (when dodging right-to-left high horizontals) : offers a move to deal massive soul gauge damage and noticeable pushback
VE (when dodging mid/high verticals) : offers a grab (the A and B grab animations should be different such that i) the chest-drain grab will leech soul gauge meter in addition to damage and ii) the twist and neck bite should drain hp.
jumpAE (when dodging lows) : offers a low (prepK:K variant, no combo guaranteed after).
214 SC2 (when dodging mid horizontals) : Should offer a guard-crush move (to put your opponent in a post GI state).
3. Damage potential
it's been 3 straight version where raph's damage/combo potential is in the bottom tier of the cast. This means that (if this trend continues) he should gain offence from his defence, and is a prime candiate for a character with AEs, awesome tech-crouch/step moves, and aGIs.
I can see raph's damage mainly coming from pokes, or from correctly evading/aGIing an opponent's move and punishing. However, I believe he should have some CH fishing potential, such that 6BBB better be at least + on hit.
The thing is, in SC4, since 4B TC's so early and reliably, it effectively replaced auto-evades against highs. There isn't a move that replaces vertAE, because 4A is has very poor frames.
(regarding egg's post: do you mean something like nightmare's NSS b:A (where instead of side-stepping/spinning high slash, it ends in a thrust?)
4. Command allocation
imo:
A+B be dedicated to aGI moves (and his flashy flamboyant moves). We'll likely see 4A+B, 8A+B, A+B return once again, but with commands changed.
B+K be dedicated to his current directional thrusts (* give it old BB's tracking [but only to the respective side]). I'm willing to take a higher whiff-risk, but longer ranged 1-side tracking mid as opposed to either 1) short range 1 side safe tracking and 2) slow 1-side long range safe tracking. IMO his sc3 B+K series looks more cocky than than his sc4 reiteration because he turns away instead of face-palming.
A+K be dedicated to his AEs
ShenRii
[09] Warrior
WuHT - Regarding his Auto-Evades.
That's why I asked for a bigger step for VE (in the trade off, he loses the auto-evade aspect), and the implementation of Jump Evade.
So, instead of auto-evades, now we got manual evade.
To me, 44B, 4A, 4B are substitutes to his Auto-Evade. It's just that 4A needs a damage buff which I've nagged about many times lol (4A CH Stun!).
Raph's damage imo should come mainly from pokes (light dmg), punishes (light dmg) and counters (heavy dmg). His current counters are weak except for 4B (Anti-High) and 44B (Anti-Low).
That's why I asked for a bigger step for VE (in the trade off, he loses the auto-evade aspect), and the implementation of Jump Evade.
So, instead of auto-evades, now we got manual evade.
To me, 44B, 4A, 4B are substitutes to his Auto-Evade. It's just that 4A needs a damage buff which I've nagged about many times lol (4A CH Stun!).
Raph's damage imo should come mainly from pokes (light dmg), punishes (light dmg) and counters (heavy dmg). His current counters are weak except for 4B (Anti-High) and 44B (Anti-Low).
darkfender
[10] Knight
aside from damage, if they'll not implement a tracking moves from neutral with decent frames there will be no use in boosting his prep...
Actually raph suffers pokes more than he should...without an i12 tracking AA and an i 13 mid tracking on the left he cannot do much.
imho
Damage is not that important but really an i16 right tracking A is ridiculous :/
Actually raph suffers pokes more than he should...without an i12 tracking AA and an i 13 mid tracking on the left he cannot do much.
imho
Damage is not that important but really an i16 right tracking A is ridiculous :/
WuHT
Premium Moderator
4A needs be WAY better on hit and block (lose the 100% tracking) to be considered his evade-dodge. Right now its basically an unsafe poke with decent evasion (and probably raph's best tracking), not a heavy hitter where the opponent regrets attacking with a vertical.
Step 22B combo kind of fills that roll instead, but i'd rather have that be an actual command instead of manually stepping.
Step 22B combo kind of fills that roll instead, but i'd rather have that be an actual command instead of manually stepping.
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
hmmm, just giving an idea. please correct me or comment on this:
Prep 214 from SC2 ?? i cant remember if i am making this up or its correct or the parrry 214. Like the parry of 44B from SC4.
A 214 that has a backstep into middish range. In prep this would work well to avoid 2A and some other close range moves that would kill prep.
236 would TC and counter highs in prep. but prep is hardly punished with a high.
since prep is his core stance, imo, it should have
a transition to most of his stances.
Prep B+K should stay but make the transition more fast.
Prep should transition into SEA when "hit" with a high, but there needs to be a more safe moveset
Prep 214 as stated earlier.
hmm prep 2 from SC2/3?
Include his auto evades from SC2/3 in his actual moveset.
Prep 214 from SC2 ?? i cant remember if i am making this up or its correct or the parrry 214. Like the parry of 44B from SC4.
A 214 that has a backstep into middish range. In prep this would work well to avoid 2A and some other close range moves that would kill prep.
236 would TC and counter highs in prep. but prep is hardly punished with a high.
since prep is his core stance, imo, it should have
a transition to most of his stances.
Prep B+K should stay but make the transition more fast.
Prep should transition into SEA when "hit" with a high, but there needs to be a more safe moveset
Prep 214 as stated earlier.
hmm prep 2 from SC2/3?
Include his auto evades from SC2/3 in his actual moveset.
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
sorry i read the post by WuHT about stances, damage, and auto evades, which makes me repeating his words in a way.
WARUI_NE
Prettier than you
SC3 stance game,2A,BB, and 22B
WuHT
Premium Moderator
214 from SC2 is an "extinct" animation where raph takes a quick step backwards, but kinda ends up in the "crane stance' like yunsung (where he has his front leg raised at the knee). The step is more evasive than regular backstep and he's given some crummy counter-attack options from this stance. He has a 214B which is his aGI against mids but it's built into an advancing mid thrust (which this animation needs to return as well).
So you agree that we say bye-bye to current prepK:K and prepA+B?
That, or it has a true aGI against mids (that can cause mids to ghost through him)when he steps (to guarantee a successful anti-step or aGI).
Probably much rather have a reliable TS (like ivy's 214B).
4(B)~B+K fails against sophie's 236B at anything but tip range but if you watch the replay the sword doenst' even hit raph up close.
B+K is slower than regular step, plus its much less deep (5 B+Ks is approximately 3 step to reach 90 degrees from starting positions).
optymuss
[12] Conqueror
Yeah i agree on Prep K:K being taken out. only because its -17 on block though. It has an oaky TJ. Prep A+B is a great way to deal good SG damage, but overall it has much more cons . Linear, very unsafe, TC isnt needed because of automatic transition into SEA, and good mid pokes can kill it. Of course raph needs cons to be balanced, but i hardly see a raph player use K:K to actually punish lows because its too risky. There should be a more balance K option in prep.
WuHT
Premium Moderator
raph better be less vulnerable to superTC moves. He gets absolutely destroyed by those.
Raph fits in to the defensive, analytical, counter type character, but he has no answer to people who spam safe semi-tracking verticals (like those BBs)
Raph fits in to the defensive, analytical, counter type character, but he has no answer to people who spam safe semi-tracking verticals (like those BBs)
darkfender
[10] Knight
:D finally someone notice...i talk about superTC from years lol
And without an i14 left tracker there is no game :| in certain matchups
Those 2 are absolutely needed to even stand a chance against ppl who knows how to face raph.
The problem is in fact that they can simply play at -2 with eternal step G and even if you catch their step u won t be able to punish :| aside the fact that is quite risky trying to do that, and talking about risk/reward u'd lose anyway due to terrible damage aside from being extremely boring :| if they have also tools like TS+TC or a good backstep is even worse .-.
I mean to win u really have to risk too much in those cases.
And without an i14 left tracker there is no game :| in certain matchups
Those 2 are absolutely needed to even stand a chance against ppl who knows how to face raph.
The problem is in fact that they can simply play at -2 with eternal step G and even if you catch their step u won t be able to punish :| aside the fact that is quite risky trying to do that, and talking about risk/reward u'd lose anyway due to terrible damage aside from being extremely boring :| if they have also tools like TS+TC or a good backstep is even worse .-.
I mean to win u really have to risk too much in those cases.