Soulcalibur VI DLC Discussion Thread

sytus

[14] Master
I think the only reason the character roster in SC6 was pruned like it was is because of all the changes to the moves and mechanics that were made to each character, plus the work in SC5 being scrapped due to the dislike of the new generation. With the commands all over the place in SC4 and the stripped back movesets in SC5, SC6 had to have a lot of work done to it's core to get it where it is now, and that's not even including the new stuff that was added like Lethal Hits, universal Break Attacks, Reversal Edge and the new meter behaviour. Going forward, I think SC7 will be more about refining the direction the series is currently going in rather than reinventing the wheel again, and if we get all the legacy characters for SC6, then I'm confident they will appear in SC7 as all the grunt of the work has already been completed.
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
I have high hopes for SC7 if the dev team generally is retained.
Big props to the SC6 dev team for the following:

• Focus and refinement of each character's niches (intended strengths and weaknesses) that makes each character play unique and pretty much slayed the "clones" argument in 1 series.

• Lethal hit conditions help cement the "intended" use of certain moves, which help define the characters. Of course you can play without using them, but it shows the dev's plans. Replacing SC5's random bonus damage for "clean hit" damage to SC6's conditional special combos is one of the best decisions in this game's history.

• certain commands are pretty universal (with some rare exceptions) that help you learn the basics of the characters. The character unique differences seem to branch out from this foundation of basics. It felt like in SC4/5 at least, the basic foundations and character unique traits were sort of arbitrary and good moves were just sort of randomly sprinkled throughout the movelist simply by chance and not intention.
There are exceptions, but most of this is universal
AA - quickest step kill, low risk low damage
BB - low risk mid string, generally fast
K - short range, fast high kick
3A - mid step kill, slower
3B - mid launcher, hits grounded
3K - safe mid short range poke
2K - low fast kick, (-) frame on hit, hits grounded
2A - crouching fast step kill, short range but good frames on hit/block
2B - hits grounded
1A - slower tracking low
1B - linear slower low
1K - slower low kick
8A/8B/8K - jump attacks
A+B - guard break that LH against GI/RE
A+G / 4A+G - grabs
running kick

• Combo paths (for most characters) seem to have a LOT of options compared to SC5. There is almost always one optimal solution, but the other choices may only result in 5% less damage which makes the attack commands seem to "fit together" better. The combo scaling seems to be "carefully" considered rather than just a lucky coincidence, due to the fact how consistent across characters this is.

• RE parry isn't perfect, but I think its still a better design than SC5's just guard. There's actual counter play against RE, being the following:
i) step in anticipation
ii) guard break, especially those with LH on hard reads
iii) RE safe pokes
iv) strings with ambiguous length of hits
Theres no counterplay against JG except hoping the opponent messes up their execution since there is no resource cost or drawback

Suggestions for polishing RE (ie making it disruptive and flow-breaking) could be an entire discussion.

• Despite the movelist pruning in SC5, which the Dev explained as trying to add a purpose to every move and trimming away useless strings, it feels like each character in SC5 had a smaller list of "good useable moves" compared to SC6

• Conditional (move specific or matchup specific) voice quotes are pretty cool and are a fun little touch.

---

The things that the SC7 team needs to focus more on would be (yes, SC6 is not a perfect game and there are actual shortcomings comapred to previous versions)
• 2p costumes. Soul Calibur always had really creative zany designs as 2p
• Armor break is going tostay, and its kinda sad that SC4 had the best armor "tear/shatter" rather than in SC6 where things just disappear. The DLC characters fair much better in this regard
• Greater stage variations/choices. SC5 really hit it out of the park with the stage diversity + every character had a theme music.
• Other fluff like intro cinematics, but things like this is almost like a strict budget issue.
• Upgrade the mesh/textures of the weapons. The weapons themselves (to me at least) is as important as the wielder. Look at Mitsurugi's hilt wraps for his katana or Seong Mina's weapon:
 
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Rusted Blade

[13] Hero
I was thinking more generally about this and SCVII - who can we assume will be in the base roster for that game and who will be DLC? It doesn’t seem right that just because a character was DLC in SCVI means that they then can’t be in the base roster in SCVII. In fact the optimist in me would like to think most of if not all of the DLC characters in SCVI will make the base roster next time round (excluding guests and budget providing)..
As of now there are 25 characters (including setsuka and hwang if leaks are true) that would be suitable to return in SCVII from the roster. I took out the guest and inferno. If we add a potential Season 3 that adds 3-4 more characters who could come back in VII too. SC has never really topped 30 characters on launch which is why I'm hesitant to assume that we would get that.

Plus we would need at least one guest for SCVII and at least one to two newcomers for SCVII. With how small project soul is I think they would cut the least popular characters and either use them for DLC or omit them entirely.
I think Dissidia has the right end of the stick here. Indeed, i would go further and say, much as we might not like to hear it, we ought to be expecting exactly the opposite trend. We are simply done with the days of getting huge rosters off the bat: the future of this industry, particularly as concerns this genre (and even more particularly, the games with lower market share within the genre) is the continuing support DLC model. I think you will see content increasingly serialized and that you will be paying more for the complete roster, but as a consequence, those rosters will get larger by the end of a game's DLC support cycle, even if the same roster is somewhat anemic for the base game.

And I feel this is something we should celebrate and embrace, not treat as stinginess on the part of the developer. This has been a longtime coming: developers in this genre in particular have been squeezed between a stagnate price for the base product, skyrocketing production costs, and decreased buy-in for many years now, and that's the biggest part of why both the quality and quantity of content in some classic fighter franchises has plummeted. It's taken them a long time to convince the consumer that multiple season passes are worth the price of admission and now that they've got there, expect them to double down in the next generation. I expect you will get anywhere from 16-24 characters in the base game for SCVII, but that by the time the last DLC character drops, you might have a massive roster in the vein of 40 characters.

At least, that's how I hope it goes. But for those expecting the entire SCVI roster (DLC characters and all) to show up in SCVII's base game, I'm afraid that's just a pipe dream. The numbers just don't add up for that--and this is a business, where those numbers are king over just about any other consideration.
 

sytus

[14] Master
Certain commands are pretty universal (with some rare exceptions) that help you learn the basics of the characters. The character unique differences seem to branch out from this foundation of basics.
In comparison to past games, the basics are even more universal. I personally find this to be one of the crowning changes in SC6 as you're no longer scratching your head when using a new character, trying to remember what command does a low (for example) as they are all universally 1A, 1B, 1K across all characters.


Some thoughts on what I would like to see implemented and removed when it comes to mechanics.

RE has got to go. It was a decent experiment and while it's no longer the tedious bitch it was in season 1, it's still a mini game in a competitive fighting game which is never going to match the main mechanics.

More delay attack moves. What I mean by that is having moves or strings where you hold down a button and delay the swing. Some characters in game even buff those delay attacks to a Break Attacks. This is where I think SC7 really needs to focus on. It would add tons of mind games and would allow players have more freedom with their character. I don't think I'm alone with the opinion that it's great to see players play the same character in different ways (I'm still butt mad that Taki's neutral was butchered in SC6, let alone the shit lows which makes her ridgid as fuck to play).

Make Soul Charge moves normal moves. I like SC6's Soul Charge but I don't like having moves locked behind it. Just balance them accordingly. Soul Charge already buffs moves with chip damage and there are other ways to buff moves like turning certain moves into Break Attacks, Just Frames or extend the reach of some moves while in Soul Charge (Maxi's 6A+B is a great example).

Bring back advance step guard. It would give people the option to shuffle away from an opponent who is applying pressure. No idea why this was removed.
 

Crash X

[14] Master
In comparison to past games, the basics are even more universal. I personally find this to be one of the crowning changes in SC6 as you're no longer scratching your head when using a new character, trying to remember what command does a low (for example) as they are all universally 1A, 1B, 1K across all characters.


Some thoughts on what I would like to see implemented and removed when it comes to mechanics.

RE has got to go. It was a decent experiment and while it's no longer the tedious bitch it was in season 1, it's still a mini game in a competitive fighting game which is never going to match the main mechanics.

More delay attack moves. What I mean by that is having moves or strings where you hold down a button and delay the swing. Some characters in game even buff those delay attacks to a Break Attacks. This is where I think SC7 really needs to focus on. It would add tons of mind games and would allow players have more freedom with their character. I don't think I'm alone with the opinion that it's great to see players play the same character in different ways (I'm still butt mad that Taki's neutral was butchered in SC6, let alone the shit lows which makes her ridgid as fuck to play).

Make Soul Charge moves normal moves. I like SC6's Soul Charge but I don't like having moves locked behind it. Just balance them accordingly. Soul Charge already buffs moves with chip damage and there are other ways to buff moves like turning certain moves into Break Attacks, Just Frames or extend the reach of some moves while in Soul Charge (Maxi's 6A+B is a great example).

Bring back advance step guard. It would give people the option to shuffle away from an opponent who is applying pressure. No idea why this was removed.
I kinda want to see the characters RE specific attacks reworked into actual moves for the cast. Astaroth for example would get some benefit to his RO game if his RE B was reworked into a regular move in his move list. Perhaps retune it into a Counter hit move (possibly a Just Frame) to avoid making it completely ridiculous, if they decide to scrap RE.

As for Soul Charge. Yes, I hate exclusives being locked inside that state. Voldo’s Landfish for example, which isn’t even that good in this game.
 

WuHT

Premium Moderator
Here's a question:

Is every character's RE attack and RE A/B/K brand new animations created in SC6 ? I know that the movement animations mainly are (there are exceptions like Raph's RE4 was his old SC2 214)

I dare say it is (groh and azwel for sure) but i'm unfamiliar with like about 70% of the cast.

I'm not even sure about the first attack in Ivy's RE BBBBB, though the rest of the string is clearly her SE B series
Nightmare's RE A is actually different from his 44A (his 44A animation is 2 handed and hits more with the flat of the blade, while his RE A the sword is swung by his monster arm and connects more with the edge).
 
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Klimat

[12] Conqueror
I was thinking more generally about this and SCVII - who can we assume will be in the base roster for that game and who will be DLC? It doesn’t seem right that just because a character was DLC in SCVI means that they then can’t be in the base roster in SCVII.
Let's say we are limited to 20 non-boss characters just like in SC6.
From the way things are going I think in SC7 base roster we are guaranteed to have:

1). Zasalamel - since I believe SC7 will be a combination of SC2 and SC3 storylines, Zasalamel is basically the main player here orchestrating major events.
2). Azwel - his main purpose is to fill original timeline plotholes with explanations which he will continue to do (in particular when it comes to Raphael's vampire transformation and so on). Also I believe people in general really liked the character, which is important for a newcomer. Also he is the main Libra of Soul antagonist.
3). Raphael - he is the secret SC2 protagonist and the one to defeat Siegmare.
4). Siegfried - can't have a SC game without one of the poster boy knights. Also giant plot relevance.
5). Nightmare - can't have a SC game without the other poster boy knight. Also giant plot relevance.
6). Amy - her journey to find Raphael is heavily teased in her SC6 Soul Chronicle. Also you can't have Viola's origin story without Amy.
7). Viola - she's the most popular SC5 character and her inclusion was teased in Amy's SC6 Soul Chronicle for a good reason.
8). Wilhelm aka ZWEI - I think Wilhelm is a better name for the character, but the point is for ZWEI's moveset to return (hopefully with many refinments). His inclusion was teased in both Amy's (a mysterious companion to join Amy and her maid on their quest to find Raphael) and Hilde's Chronicle (an injured wolf themed edgeboy with a cross-shaped weapon traveling around the world doing diplomacy for Wolfkrone Kingdom).
9). Cassandra - she's basically on the mission to break old timeline canon, which is one of the most important things to do in SC7.
10). Tira - from a story perspective she'll be Cassandra's main opponent and the final boss of Cassandra's Chronicle.
11). Kilik - the obvious SC2 protagonist (with Raphael being the secret one), also you can't just drop SC6 main character from SC7.
12). Ivy - way too popular and unique of a character, also her plot against Cervantes is really cool.
13). Cervantes - he's a popular cool character, also he's needed for Ivy's story.
14). Taki - way too popular and cool to miss. Also after SC5 people will be doubly mad.
15). Mitsurugi - another staple poster boy you need to have.
16). Yoshimitsu - another staple poster boy you need to have.
17). Astaroth - series top grappler. You need at least one to appease the archetype.
18). Voldo - series top weirdo.
19). Yun-Seong - you need at least one Korean and he is the most popular according to the official poll, also his SC7 role will be properly established and teased in his SC6 DLC Chronicle.
20). Talim - I guess I can't ignore her popularity poll placement forever, also Yun-Seong needs a companion, so those two go hand in hand.

Only having 20 slots is definitely rough, my most controversial uninclusions are:
1). Groh - I believe he should be essential for Libra of Soul sequel storyline to work, yet as I look at my 20 base roster character selection, I can't find anyone to kick out to free an extra slot. Maybe they'll have to make SC7 base roster 21 non-boss characters big just to be able to fit him. I really can't see any other solution.
2). Sophitia - the final major character in the whole Cassandra/Tira/Sophitia plot. Story-wise she's the least important of the three at this point, but I still think she's very popular, so it hurts to cut her. I think she might be a good candidate for day one free with the season pass DLC the way Tira was in SC6.
3). Xianghua - in a SC2/3 remake her story purpose won't be near as important as in SC1 (she basically hangs around Kilik and Maxi as the trio tries to stop Nightmare for the second time only to fail), but she is still a hightly popular cool character. Definitely a strong contender for Season 1 DLC.
4). Maxi - same as Xianghua, but a little less popular.
5). Seong Mi-na - a very cool and popular character, still for SC7 purposes Yun-Seong is a better choice for the base roster. Should be among top priority DLCs.

All other base roster uninclusions like Setsuka or Hilde I think are not controversial at all.

P.S. Thinking about it, there will definitely be new characters and at least one guest... oh my...
 
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WuHT

Premium Moderator
Alternatively you can think about which characters can be bundled in DLC packages that are enticing "must-haves" yet won't cause a riot if they are not included in the main roster.

I was wrong in SC6 about the "clones" and was happy that Sieg and Mina were in the base roster (at the expense of Tira / korean swordsman)
I guess unlocks are now the new DLCs.

The DLCs I noticed a couple of things:
• Tend to have more complex armor break (strictly cosmetic)
• Mechanically they have something more complicated, such as 2 gloomy/jolly stance,l holy charge states, flower counts, or charge holds + regalia perks.
 

Klimat

[12] Conqueror
RE has got to go. It was a decent experiment and while it's no longer the tedious bitch it was in season 1, it's still a mini game in a competitive fighting game which is never going to match the main mechanics.
Make Soul Charge moves normal moves.
I have to disagree with both.
With RE I won't cry if they cut the mini game from it, but attack deflection phase should absolutely stay, it simply can do something else on hit depending on a character like Raphael's prep RE already does. I think that might be a decent compromise, but I'm very much against removing RE mechanics completely.
Also locking certain moves behind Soul Charge is great. It allows non-soul charged gameplay to stay more calm and pokey while with Soul Charge crap hits the fan for a limited amount of time, allowing crazy combos and massive damage. I absolutely don't want crazy combos and massive damage to be the default norm at all times, if I wanted that, I would have played Tekken instead of SC.
 

HD_Reed

[04] Fighter
I think Dissidia has the right end of the stick here. Indeed, i would go further and say, much as we might not like to hear it, we ought to be expecting exactly the opposite trend. We are simply done with the days of getting huge rosters off the bat: the future of this industry, particularly as concerns this genre (and even more particularly, the games with lower market share within the genre) is the continuing support DLC model. I think you will see content increasingly serialized and that you will be paying more for the complete roster, but as a consequence, those rosters will get larger by the end of a game's DLC support cycle, even if the same roster is somewhat anemic for the base game.

And I feel this is something we should celebrate and embrace, not treat as stinginess on the part of the developer. This has been a longtime coming: developers in this genre in particular have been squeezed between a stagnate price for the base product, skyrocketing production costs, and decreased buy-in for many years now, and that's the biggest part of why both the quality and quantity of content in some classic fighter franchises has plummeted. It's taken them a long time to convince the consumer that multiple season passes are worth the price of admission and now that they've got there, expect them to double down in the next generation. I expect you will get anywhere from 16-24 characters in the base game for SCVII, but that by the time the last DLC character drops, you might have a massive roster in the vein of 40 characters.

At least, that's how I hope it goes. But for those expecting the entire SCVI roster (DLC characters and all) to show up in SCVII's base game, I'm afraid that's just a pipe dream. The numbers just don't add up for that--and this is a business, where those numbers are king over just about any other consideration.
You make some very fair points particularly in relation to the direction of the wider industry and where it’s heading, but I very much disagree that we should be celebrating and embracing what is essentially getting less bang for your buck / value for money.

The average consumer is arguably less likely to factor in things like wider direction of travel of the industry when making their purchase decision, and will instead make a judgement based on how much worthwhile content they’re getting from an initial purchase.

I’d like to assume a couple more things - that SCVII comes out within the next 2-3 years as an early next gen title, and that the budget is bigger in light of the relative success of SCVI. If this is the case, I think it’s extremely unreasonable to lock content behind a pay wall that only requires minimal effort to put in the game (my point being it shouldn’t in theory be hard to port SCVI characters to SCVII). Yes this might be a critique of the wider industry rather than Project Soul, but I think it’s an important one nonetheless and that we shouldn’t just accept what we’re given without challenge.

The customer (and a loyal one at that) has the right to expect a certain standard and level of quality, especially with such a well established franchise. Ultimately I think there’s a sweet spot somewhere in between of us getting a SCVII that is bigger and better than its predecessors (including games like SCII and III which had a starting roster larger than SCVI) and a game that is produced in the current economic climate (which in itself might negate my whole argument once the post Covid-19 dust has settled).
 

Rusted Blade

[13] Hero
Let's say we are limited to 20 non-boss characters just like in SC6.
From the way things are going I think in SC7 base roster we are guaranteed to have:

1). Zasalamel - since I believe SC7 will be a combination of SC2 and SC3 storylines, Zasalamel is basically the main player here orchestrating major events.
2). Azwel - his main purpose is to fill original timeline plotholes with explanations which he will continue to do (in particular when it comes to Raphael's vampire transformation and so on). Also I believe people in general really liked the character, which is important for a newcomer. Also he is the main Libra of Soul antagonist.
3). Raphael - he is the secret SC2 protagonist and the one to defeat Siegmare.
4). Siegfried - can't have a SC game without one of the poster boy knights. Also giant plot relevance.
5). Nightmare - can't have a SC game without the other poster boy knight. Also giant plot relevance.
6). Amy - her journey to find Raphael is heavily teased in her SC6 Soul Chronicle. Also you can't have Viola's origin story without Amy.
7). Viola - she's the most popular SC5 character and her inclusion was teased in Amy's SC6 Soul Chronicle for a good reason.
8). Wilhelm aka ZWEI - I think Wilhelm is a better name for the character, but the point is for ZWEI's moveset to return (hopefully with many refinments). His inclusion was teased in both Amy's (a mysterious companion to join Amy and her maid on their quest to find Raphael) and Hilde's Chronicle (an injured wolf themed edgeboy with a cross-shaped weapon traveling around the world doing diplomacy for Wolfkrone Kingdom).
9). Cassandra - she's basically on the mission to break old timeline canon, which is one of the most important things to do in SC7.
10). Tira - from a story perspective she'll be Cassandra's main opponent and the final boss of Cassandra's Chronicle.
11). Kilik - the obvious SC2 protagonist (with Raphael being the secret one), also you can't just drop SC6 main character from SC7.
12). Ivy - way too popular and unique of a character, also her plot against Cervantes is really cool.
13). Cervantes - he's a popular cool character, also he's needed for Ivy's story.
14). Taki - way too popular and cool to miss. Also after SC5 people will be doubly mad.
15). Mitsurugi - another staple poster boy you need to have.
16). Yoshimitsu - another staple poster boy you need to have.
17). Astaroth - series top grappler. You need at least one to appease the archetype.
18). Voldo - series top weirdo.
19). Yun-Seong - you need at least one Korean and he is the most popular according to the official poll, also his SC7 role will be properly established and teased in his SC6 DLC Chronicle.
20). Talim - I guess I can't ignore her popularity poll placement forever, also Yun-Seong needs a companion, so those two go hand in hand.

Only having 20 slots is definitely rough, my most controversial uninclusions are:
1). Groh - I believe he should be essential for Libra of Soul sequel storyline to work, yet as I look at my 20 base roster character selection, I can't find anyone to kick out to free an extra slot. Maybe they'll have to make SC7 base roster 21 non-boss characters big just to be able to fit him. I really can't see any other solution.
2). Sophitia - the final major character in the whole Cassandra/Tira/Sophitia plot. Story-wise she's the least important of the three at this point, but I still think she's very popular, so it hurts to cut her. I think she might be a good candidate for day one free with the season pass DLC the way Tira was in SC6.
3). Xianghua - in a SC2/3 remake her story purpose won't be near as important as in SC1 (she basically hangs around Kilik and Maxi as the trio tries to stop Nightmare for the second time only to fail), but she is still a hightly popular cool character. Definitely a strong contender for Season 1 DLC.
4). Maxi - same as Xianghua, but a little less popular.
5). Seong Mi-na - a very cool and popular character, still for SC7 purposes Yun-Seong is a better choice for the base roster. Should be among top priority DLCs.

All other base roster uninclusions like Setsuka or Hilde I think are not controversial at all.

P.S. Thinking about it, there will definitely be new characters and at least one guest... oh my...
I think that's a really solid prediction overall. I'm not so sure about X or maxi as either they or a rough analog have been included consistently since the earliest games. And I wonder if maybe Viola might not be first season (day one?) DLC; unlike most people I don't consider that a sin if the core game has given good value. I'm also not super sold on the Wilhelm=Zwei angle, but then I was on the fence about Amy=Viola, so....

I have to disagree with both.
With RE I won't cry if they cut the mini game from it, but attack deflection phase should absolutely stay, it simply can do something else on hit depending on a character like Raphael's prep RE already does. I think that might be a decent compromise, but I'm very much against removing RE mechanics completely.
Also locking certain moves behind Soul Charge is great. It allows non-soul charged gameplay to stay more calm and pokey while with Soul Charge crap hits the fan for a limited amount of time, allowing crazy combos and massive damage. I absolutely don't want crazy combos and massive damage to be the default norm at all times, if I wanted that, I would have played Tekken instead of SC.
Largely agreed here as well. I think RE has to morph into something much faster and less pace-breaking than it currently is, not to mention more balanced, but I think there is a great argument to be made for keeping the core roll that it was meant to introduce to the Rock-Paper-Scissors melange of the game. Make it slightly faster, remove the mini-game, and make it either neutral on meter or even cost meter, depending on how the individual RE's other qualities are calibrated, for the sake of balance. Maybe allow succesully application to recover like 80% of what was expended to initiate the move but never make it quite a meter net-positive. Or again, just neutral.

RE as the term applies in this game is nothing less than the most significant and uniformly positive addition SCVI brings to the overall Soulcalibur formula. I think it has to stay in some form for maybe every subsequent title.
 
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Rusted Blade

[13] Hero
You make some very fair points particularly in relation to the direction of the wider industry and where it’s heading, but I very much disagree that we should be celebrating and embracing what is essentially getting less bang for your buck / value for money.

The average consumer is arguably less likely to factor in things like wider direction of travel of the industry when making their purchase decision, and will instead make a judgement based on how much worthwhile content they’re getting from an initial purchase.

I’d like to assume a couple more things - that SCVII comes out within the next 2-3 years as an early next gen title, and that the budget is bigger in light of the relative success of SCVI. If this is the case, I think it’s extremely unreasonable to lock content behind a pay wall that only requires minimal effort to put in the game (my point being it shouldn’t in theory be hard to port SCVI characters to SCVII). Yes this might be a critique of the wider industry rather than Project Soul, but I think it’s an important one nonetheless and that we shouldn’t just accept what we’re given without challenge.

The customer (and a loyal one at that) has the right to expect a certain standard and level of quality, especially with such a well established franchise. Ultimately I think there’s a sweet spot somewhere in between of us getting a SCVII that is bigger and better than its predecessors (including games like SCII and III which had a starting roster larger than SCVI) and a game that is produced in the current economic climate (which in itself might negate my whole argument once the post Covid-19 dust has settled).
The average consumer is arguably less likely to factor in things like wider direction of travel of the industry when making their purchase decision, and will instead make a judgement based on how much worthwhile content they’re getting from an initial purchase.
Only if they want to shoot themselves in the foot should consumers adopt such a dogmatic view. I understand why the early years of DLC made game consumer hyper vigilant about getting the shaft, but there's far too much inflexibility and histionic overreaction to new payment models in those same communities as a result now. As I mentioned before, companies in this genre have been struggling to make a profit for ages: it is very hard for them to hit unit volume targets at the heights necessary to keep pace with rising production costs, especially if you are talking about a major 3D fighter. We can either be squuemish/entitled about what we get or confront the basic reality that we won't get larger rosters unless we are willing to buy into the continuing support model. Everyone is free to decide for themselves how much they invest, and yes, by all means keep the company honest: if you don't feel like you get your money's worth for the core game, there's no real harm in one saying as much. What I can't understand is people who self-sabotage their own interest in more content by being unwilling to consider that season passes have to start after a certain roster threshold. That's my take anyway.[/QUOTE]

The customer (and a loyal one at that) has the right to expect a certain standard and level of quality, especially with such a well established franchise. Ultimately I think there’s a sweet spot somewhere in between of us getting a SCVII that is bigger and better than its predecessors (including games like SCII and III which had a starting roster larger than SCVI) and a game that is produced in the current economic climate (which in itself might negate my whole argument once the post Covid-19 dust has settled).
Very much agree with that generally--I would add only one caveat: it's better to judge the standard flexibly, and not by the question of when content was finished. If they had eight day one dlc characters, my first impulse would be "awesome" if and only if the rest of the core game content was worth what I paid for it at the time I paid for it, if you follow my meaning. If you do that, I view anything further as bonus content and I don't care when it was finished or even if it is indeed on the damn disk: some of the objections people have to this sort of thing are quite irrational and arbitrary and to my mind very much miss the point. if what I get is a reasonable amount of content, considering 1) how it stacks up against my other purchase options, 2) how much I like that particular piece of content and want to support it and, 3) what I think are realistic costs the developer/publisher had to address. I've never understood why exactly "when the content was technically finished" not only gets into people's lists, but in effect sits at the top of their list of priorities.
 

HD_Reed

[04] Fighter
Only if they want to shoot themselves in the foot should consumers adopt such a dogmatic view. I understand why the early years of DLC made game consumer hyper vigilant about getting the shaft, but there's far too much inflexibility and histionic overreaction to new payment models in those same communities as a result now. As I mentioned before, companies in this genre have been struggling to make a profit for ages: it is very hard for them to hit unit volume targets at the heights necessary to keep pace with rising production costs, especially if you are talking about a major 3D fighter. We can either be squuemish/entitled about what we get or confront the basic reality that we won't get larger rosters unless we are willing to buy into the continuing support model. Everyone is free to decide for themselves how much they invest, and yes, by all means keep the company honest: if you don't feel like you get your money's worth for the core game, there's no real harm in one saying as much. What I can't understand is people who self-sabotage their own interest in more content by being unwilling to consider that season passes have to start after a certain roster threshold. That's my take anyway.

Generally I think we’re in agreement. I’m not especially critical of how SCVI’s roster and DLC has been handled - this was the first game in the series in 6 years, for a new generation of consoles, made on a tight budget with little indication of whether it would be financially successful or not. I do not expect similar compromises for SCVII however, given the success of SCVI and the likely profits made (providing they make SCVII in the not too distant future and so are able to reuse most of the assets from SCVI).

I think I’m more inclined to lean to the side of the customer / fan feeling they made a return on their investment rather than the business making a large profit.

Also I’m just not buying that Tira was anything other than planned Day 1 DLC from the beginning - and I think this is wrong of companies and we should hold them to account when they adopt these unnecessarily greedy practices.
 
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HD_Reed

[04] Fighter
Let's say we are limited to 20 non-boss characters just like in SC6.
From the way things are going I think in SC7 base roster we are guaranteed to have:

1). Zasalamel - since I believe SC7 will be a combination of SC2 and SC3 storylines, Zasalamel is basically the main player here orchestrating major events.
2). Azwel - his main purpose is to fill original timeline plotholes with explanations which he will continue to do (in particular when it comes to Raphael's vampire transformation and so on). Also I believe people in general really liked the character, which is important for a newcomer. Also he is the main Libra of Soul antagonist.
3). Raphael - he is the secret SC2 protagonist and the one to defeat Siegmare.
4). Siegfried - can't have a SC game without one of the poster boy knights. Also giant plot relevance.
5). Nightmare - can't have a SC game without the other poster boy knight. Also giant plot relevance.
6). Amy - her journey to find Raphael is heavily teased in her SC6 Soul Chronicle. Also you can't have Viola's origin story without Amy.
7). Viola - she's the most popular SC5 character and her inclusion was teased in Amy's SC6 Soul Chronicle for a good reason.
8). Wilhelm aka ZWEI - I think Wilhelm is a better name for the character, but the point is for ZWEI's moveset to return (hopefully with many refinments). His inclusion was teased in both Amy's (a mysterious companion to join Amy and her maid on their quest to find Raphael) and Hilde's Chronicle (an injured wolf themed edgeboy with a cross-shaped weapon traveling around the world doing diplomacy for Wolfkrone Kingdom).
9). Cassandra - she's basically on the mission to break old timeline canon, which is one of the most important things to do in SC7.
10). Tira - from a story perspective she'll be Cassandra's main opponent and the final boss of Cassandra's Chronicle.
11). Kilik - the obvious SC2 protagonist (with Raphael being the secret one), also you can't just drop SC6 main character from SC7.
12). Ivy - way too popular and unique of a character, also her plot against Cervantes is really cool.
13). Cervantes - he's a popular cool character, also he's needed for Ivy's story.
14). Taki - way too popular and cool to miss. Also after SC5 people will be doubly mad.
15). Mitsurugi - another staple poster boy you need to have.
16). Yoshimitsu - another staple poster boy you need to have.
17). Astaroth - series top grappler. You need at least one to appease the archetype.
18). Voldo - series top weirdo.
19). Yun-Seong - you need at least one Korean and he is the most popular according to the official poll, also his SC7 role will be properly established and teased in his SC6 DLC Chronicle.
20). Talim - I guess I can't ignore her popularity poll placement forever, also Yun-Seong needs a companion, so those two go hand in hand.

Only having 20 slots is definitely rough, my most controversial uninclusions are:
1). Groh - I believe he should be essential for Libra of Soul sequel storyline to work, yet as I look at my 20 base roster character selection, I can't find anyone to kick out to free an extra slot. Maybe they'll have to make SC7 base roster 21 non-boss characters big just to be able to fit him. I really can't see any other solution.
2). Sophitia - the final major character in the whole Cassandra/Tira/Sophitia plot. Story-wise she's the least important of the three at this point, but I still think she's very popular, so it hurts to cut her. I think she might be a good candidate for day one free with the season pass DLC the way Tira was in SC6.
3). Xianghua - in a SC2/3 remake her story purpose won't be near as important as in SC1 (she basically hangs around Kilik and Maxi as the trio tries to stop Nightmare for the second time only to fail), but she is still a hightly popular cool character. Definitely a strong contender for Season 1 DLC.
4). Maxi - same as Xianghua, but a little less popular.
5). Seong Mi-na - a very cool and popular character, still for SC7 purposes Yun-Seong is a better choice for the base roster. Should be among top priority DLCs.

All other base roster uninclusions like Setsuka or Hilde I think are not controversial at all.

P.S. Thinking about it, there will definitely be new characters and at least one guest... oh my...
Sophitia, Maxi, Xianghua and Seong-Mina are such series staples (SCV not withstanding) there’s no way in hell they won’t make the base roster!

Also, if a bunch of the SCVI characters (base roster or DLC) don’t make the cut for SCVII - what’s the incentive to move on to the newer entry? For me personally, you could give me all the new flashy combat systems and game modes in the world, but if the newer entry is missing a good chunk of characters from its predecessor, it’s a pass from me. I think Project Soul would need to be careful that they don’t inadvertently make SCVI the definitive edition in the franchise if they are having to cut characters for SCVII (arguably what happened with SCIV and V, judging by the respective sales of those games)..
 
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Assassinate

[10] Knight
Sophitia, Maxi, Xianghua and Seong-Mina are such series staples (SCV not withstanding) there’s no way in hell they won’t make the base roster!
Right!? Isn’t Xianghua the one that actually had Soulcalibur? Also, unlike Yun or Amy, Sohphitia and Xianghua actually have something to do with the main story and the Soul Swords. Could not see a SC without them.
 

DanteSC3

[14] Master
Sophitia, Maxi, Xianghua and Seong-Mina are such series staples (SCV not withstanding) there’s no way in hell they won’t make the base roster!
Sophitia and Mi-na almost didn’t make it to SoulCalibur II, you know. The plan was for Cassandra and Kilik to usurp them completely, like Astaroth was for Rock, except he has now succeeded in doing that now. Yun-seong hasn’t won the war yet, though, with Hwang getting into SoulCalibur VI first or only depending on if we get a season three or not. I’m not saying that they’ll repeat past mistakes, but there was an attempt. It didn’t work, and they were essentially forced into bringing them back for the home release of SoulCalibur II, but there was a real attempt back then to remove Sophitia and Mi-na.
 

Assassinate

[10] Knight
Sophitia and Mi-na almost didn’t make it to SoulCalibur II, you know. The plan was for Cassandra and Kilik to usurp them completely, like Astaroth was for Rock, except he has now succeeded in doing that now. Yun-seong hasn’t won the war yet, though, with Hwang getting into SoulCalibur VI first or only depending on if we get a season three or not. I’m not saying that they’ll repeat past mistakes, but there was an attempt. It didn’t work, and they were essentially forced into bringing them back for the home release of SoulCalibur II, but there was a real attempt back then to remove Sophitia and Mi-na.
This was attempted twice and failed both times. They need to phase characters out and in more smoothly than they did with SC2 and SC5.
 

sytus

[14] Master
Also locking certain moves behind Soul Charge is great. It allows non-soul charged gameplay to stay more calm and pokey while with Soul Charge crap hits the fan for a limited amount of time, allowing crazy combos and massive damage. I absolutely don't want crazy combos and massive damage to be the default norm at all times,
That's why I said just balance them accordingly. A lot of these Soul Charge moves have been normal moves in past games, it's just a case of making them do less damage overall and change the frame data so you're minus on hit or punishable on block.
 

sytus

[14] Master
Well, let me just put the brakes on this whole exercise right here ...
QFT. We're not even officially done with SC6, why would Bandai Namco sacrifice the current momentum just because 9th gen is just around the corner. If anything, it will probably be better for fighting game devs to release their sequels mid generation due to a console player base being adequate in size by that time.