Step Killer Anaylsis

[Leonyx]

How do you guys feel about 4K? It gives +4 on hit, and it's fast and reliable.

 

[Leonyx]

Dude, 4K is one of Raph's best step killing moves. It's fast, tracks to both sides, and can also be a quick punish. It can beat one of Xiba's REM moves (I forgot which one).

I just re-discovered this today. I noticed it wasn't in the OP's list.

 

[darkfender]

tracks step but not qs at proper distance.
Same of scIV with the difference that a whiff can cost you half health -.-

 

[Leonyx]

What do you mean "proper distance"?

 

[darkfender]

lets see that even prep K tracks:
basically some players prefer to step raph preps instead of QS it because they can get more frame before SEA

If you prep K you can track them.

If they QS instead prep K will whiff.

 

[Leonyx]

Oh, I understand the difference between step and Quick Step. I'm wondering what you meant by proper distance. 4K doesn't have much range to it, and from my testing (which could very well be incorrect) it catches QS.

 

[Reptile]

You know what doesn't get sidestepped with Raph? Grabs.

 

[Mandritti]

Don't forget that Raph's grabbing ranged got nerfed. Raph has to run up closer to grab now.

Remember the old problem of "step, fast move, step, TC" ? Even if you saw it coming you had -nothing- that would follow the step and beat out the move coming right after it. Well now that's not a problem. Throw interrupts = pro.

If the guy moves to the side and that's all he does, then sure, don't go chase him for your throw. But you can move backward or forward. Or just take your advantage.

 

[WuHT]

One thing I just want to mention is that you shouldn't immediately try to find a silver bullet to stop EVERY opponent action, particularly the ones where they attack you with a move with good frames on block (like a pyrrha BB) and you know 90% they're just setting up a QS right after.

Instead of trying to stop their step by CHing with a horizontal (which I don't need to mention is risky and the rewards aren't amazing, you can simply anticipate the NEXT move they're doing after the QS. Will they 22B ? Then all you do is QS yourself and let them eat 33kBE. Will she just 2A? You can back dash and whiff punish her.

There is some guessing (down to you versus your opponent) but at least you won't whiff your interrupt and eat the full damage on your own whiff. I treat a lot of my opponent's moves as + on block when they arn't and it helps me learn not to try to swing the momentum with 1 strike but take it away tactfully.

Thats not to say that moves like 22A and 44A and even AA dont' have their place.

 

[LAU]

One thing I just want to mention is that you shouldn't immediately try to find a silver bullet to stop EVERY opponent action, particularly the ones where they attack you with a move with good frames on block (like a pyrrha BB) and you know 90% they're just setting up a QS right after.

Instead of trying to stop their step by CHing with a horizontal (which I don't need to mention is risky and the rewards aren't amazing, you can simply anticipate the NEXT move they're doing after the QS. Will they 22B ? Then all you do is QS yourself and let them eat 33kBE. Will she just 2A? You can back dash and whiff punish her.

There is some guessing (down to you versus your opponent) but at least you won't whiff your interrupt and eat the full damage on your own whiff. I treat a lot of my opponent's moves as + on block when they arn't and it helps me learn not to try to swing the momentum with 1 strike but take it away tactfully.

Thats not to say that moves like 22A and 44A and even AA dont' have their place.

agree...

and this rule applies outside of point blank range... sometimes the smartest thing to do is really to wait...or back up yourself and observe....

------------
recently have changed some of my thoughts on a few moves...

44AB - It's still decent... but the slow speed makes it hard to use.... however i still feel this move shouldn't be ignored simply because it does yield the most damage on NC and the range is still decent... and it's fairly safe if you use it well

22A - the range isn't mediocre.... it's very good

11K - the range is a bit better than i expect it... i've been using it a lot more... however... it really depends on match up.... in some match up especially those who can punish hard after blocking the move it might not be that worth it when you compare it to just throwing.... but if the character can't punish you hard for it... it is less risky than a throw.... and it sets you up nicely for 8A+B/2A/throw

Prep K - the move does track a bit better than i expect... i'm not exactly sure how or when it doesn't track well probably got to do with the frames.... like if i delay it too much it becomes a useless horizontal move (just a thought).

-LAU

 

[Mr.Hai]

...If you prep K you can track them. If they QS instead prep K will whiff.

k(BE) will track QS at tip range so that can be used it they step it. A and K will only track to the left anyway.

 

[LAU]

k(BE) will track QS at tip range so that can be used it they step it. A and K will only track to the left anyway.

you mean the BE first hit will track both sides vs regular version won't?

-LAU

 

[Heaton]

People have been saying things I've found odd, so I was prompted to do this.

Preparation K Step Kill​

​

​

Spoiler: 1

Steppable at less than close range, more than mid range.

Spoiler: 2

Steppable at extremely close range.

Spoiler: 3

Catches step only at around tip range.

​

A quick clarification: For the intents of tracking and step killing, Prep k(BE) is exactly the same as Prep K.​

​

As you can see from the graph, Preparation K generally kills step on hit given optimal conditions, and generally will not kill step whatsoever on block or Just Guard. This seems to be intended - the move itself does not seem to track whatsoever, and any incidence of Preparation K hitting a stepping opponent is related to the fact that stance entrances give very good advantage on hit - Preparation K hits people out of step because they do not have enough frames to activate the Quick Step, and in these circumstances Prep AB and Prep BB will also "kill step", so to speak.​

​

I do note that Preparation K can sometimes hit a stepping an opponent after the stance entrance has been blocked. Testing revealed that this is a consequence of doing a move too soon after Quick Stepping, in which case it is not that Preparation K tracks the opponent, but that the opponent moves back into Preparation K's hitbox, and thus I conclude that this was likely not an intended property for the move to have. This is supported by the fact that staple follow-up combo (Prep K ~ A+BA) whiffs at an extremely high rate during these scenarios, and shows that the combo was intended to work in very specific scenarios only.​

​

In conclusion, Preparation K is not a move to be used for killing step on block, and nothing has ever intidcated that it was. In addition, any time that you use Preparation K and they step, on hit or whiff you could have gone into Shadow Evade uninterrupted and subject them to a SE A/SE K mix-up. Preperation K's use lies in punishing people who try and Tech Crouch the stance, or interrupting people who try to interrupt or evade Preparation on hit.​

​

In my opinion, the only buffing this move needs is fixing the inconsistencies on catching step that the move has with entrances on hit, in particular 44A(B). To balance this out, removing Preparation K's ability to kill step on guard seems like a fair nerf, as gameplay itself has shown that entering Preparation on guard is an extremely unwise decision - removing the move's tracking on blocked entrances keeps with the game's theme of punishing unwise decision.People who want this move to track fully on block risk over-buffing Raphael and turning Preparation into Chief Hold, which does not fit with the rest of Raphael's moveset and general playstyle.​

​

As a final thought: remember that Preparation is the gateway to Shadow Evade, and that Preparation's moves are more useful for punishing people trying to interrupt Shadow Evade entrances than it is for directly pressuring people.​

 

[Mr.Hai]

you mean the BE first hit will track both sides vs regular version won't?

It is the same as K, I just tend to throw out the BE version at range once they show they step it close up (which I see Heaton already disambiguated).

I do note that Preparation K can sometimes hit a stepping an opponent after the stance entrance has been blocked. Testing revealed that this is a consequence of doing a move too soon after Quick Stepping, in which case it is not that Preparation K tracks the opponent, but that the opponent moves back into Preparation K's hitbox, and thus I conclude that this was likely not an intended property for the move to have.

Worth noting is the inherent tracking of prep itself (or realignment in general as this can also be seen with ~A). Prep K will catch a step to the left side, but if the step is slightly delayed K will whiff. The step is started slightly after K is started, there is no realignment and the ~K whiffs. But if the step starts before K, I assume Raph realigns before K comes out and the hitbox can catch the step. Additionaly, the range issue is simmilar to the ability of SEB to track better at a range; the opponent must step deeper to escape the hitbox/re-alignment at range, this is also why ~K seems to whiff at close range. Attacking/blocking out of step cancels the full step, so at most ranges ~K will usually catch if the opponent does not wait for the full movement/~K whiff.​

​

Quick test. Hold step after blocking the move:
66B hits (+8)
3B whiffs left (+1)
44aB/4B whiffs left (-1)
AB whiffs left(-2)
BB whiffs (-3)
Presumably we could find the windows where the opponent must step to avoid ~K. Although I have no idea how to further test for it.​

​

Preperation K's use lies in punishing people who try and Tech Crouch the stance, or interrupting people who try to interrupt or evade Preparation on hit.

I assume the ideas was to divide SC4 prep~A into more focused moves. Prep A seems to have been the intended step killer, while K was anti-TC. Yet we get both that do the same job (and not so well).​

​

 

[WuHT]

​

In conclusion, Preparation K is not a move to be used for killing step on block, and nothing has ever intidcated that it was. In addition, any time that you use Preparation K and they step, on hit or whiff you could have gone into Shadow Evade uninterrupted and subject them to a SE A/SE K mix-up.​

I must also champion then ol 3B, AA where you actually don't enter prep but let your negative frames on block get cancelled by your opponent stepping when they actually have the advantage. Obviously the rewards arn't as good as SE but im' just throwing another less offense- committed option. I don't recommend throwing out prep4 much, as I really don't like the options when the opponent is aware of your prep.​

​

​

Preperation K's use lies in punishing people who try and Tech Crouch the stance, or interrupting people who try to interrupt or evade Preparation on hit.​

I've noticed people will try to interrupt or evade a lot more after prepA(B) on hit rather than prepB(B) on hit, so its worth gambling a CH. However, my prepK useage is 90% restricted to after a successful prep4 aGI where i use the BE version. I'm not good at predicting when my opponent will try to TC despite being hit by prep entrance moves, where i'd guess between prep4 and SE to beat their actual attack instead or going for the hard interrupt with prepK.​

​

​

​

In my opinion, the only buffing this move needs is fixing the inconsistencies on catching step that the move has with entrances on hit, in particular 44A(B). To balance this out, removing Preparation K's ability to on guard seems like a fair nerf, as gameplay itself has shown that entering Preparation on guard is an extremely unwise decision - removing the move's tracking on blocked entrances keeps with the game's theme of punishing unwise decision People who want this move to track fully on block risk over-buffing Raphael and turning Preparation into Chief Hold, which does not fit with the rest of Raphael's moveset and general playstyle.​

Faster SE stance like SEA back in SC4 will do the trick. Otherwise increased range on prepA (unlikely they'll want that as his 3(B)~prepAB combo does almost 50 damage while restricted raph to up-close punishment of -16 moves). I've treated prepK as a lost cause, and a waste of a nice "tracking mid" animation that should have went to a move that actually did it.​

​

​

​

As a final thought: remember that Preparation is the gateway to Shadow Evade, and that Preparation's moves are more useful for punishing people trying to interrupt Shadow Evade entrances than it is for directly pressuring people.​

Very good. If you know how strong SE was supposed to be, then all prep really boils down to is either for guranteed damage or just a threat to ensure you to enter SE safely.

 

[Heaton]

Worth noting is the inherent tracking of prep itself (or realignment in general as this can also be seen with ~A).​

Interesting and useful to note, but if you stay in Prep long enough, even Prep BB will be able to hit a stepping opponent if they stop. And again, any time they step, you could have gone into Shadow Evade and used any of those options instead.

I assume the ideas was to divide SC4 prep~A into more focused moves. Prep A seems to have been the intended step killer, while K was anti-TC. Yet we get both that do the same job (and not so well).​

​

Honestly, I don't think that Prep was ever supposed to have a step kill. The idea is to keep pressure via correct on-hit guess (Prep A, B, K) or correct defensive guesses (Prep A+B, 4), and entering Shadow Evade when you've conditioned them with pressure often enough so that they freeze up. Giving Prep a consistent step kill means that there's not much of a point to entering Shadow Evade, since you can do everything you need to in Prep. To say that they do the job is misleading, I think, since they do it not because of tracking or horizontal properties but because the opponent tried to do something foolish at disadvantage and got interrupted; them killing step on hit is more of a bonus than anything.​

I must also champion then ol 3B, AA where you actually don't enter prep but let your negative frames on block get cancelled by your opponent stepping when they actually have the advantage. Obviously the rewards arn't as good as SE but im' just throwing another less offense- committed option. I don't recommend throwing out prep4 much, as I really don't like the options when the opponent is aware of your prep.​

​

Ah, the old 3B ~ AA. I hate to use something so underhanded, but people seem to automatically assume that Raphael always enters stance off of 3B, so it's an interesting way to pressure people.​

On Prep 4: it's more for spacing than anyway, and is the only reason I'll do 3(B) on block at tip range.​

​

Faster SE stance like SEA back in SC4 will do the trick. Otherwise increased range on prepA (unlikely they'll want that as his 3(B)~prepAB combo does almost 50 damage while restricted raph to up-close punishment of -16 moves). I've treated prepK as a lost cause, and a waste of a nice "tracking mid" animation that should have went to a move that actually did it.

​

If you commit, Prep K works wonderfully, but since he has other options you don't necessarily need it. It leads to very nice wall combos, however, so that's one thing it has going for it that other moves don't. All together, Preparation and Shadow Evade don't really need buffs - the only thing I can think of that would be a reasonable desire would be to make SE A neutral on block again, but even that is asking for quite a bit.​

​

And I maintain the best way to buff Raphael is to give him back SC4 44B, frames, attack throw, "What a joke!" and all.​

​

Very good. If you know how strong SE was supposed to be, then all prep really boils down to is either for guranteed damage or just a threat to ensure you to enter SE safely.

Exactly. Preparation's strength lies not in the moves it has itself, which are generally more annoying than painful (until you spend meter), but in the fact that it allows you to use Shadow Evade, one of the best stances in the game. Trying to spend as much time as possible in SE is probably the best way to use Raphael offensively.

 

[LAU]

​

Exactly. Preparation's strength lies not in the moves it has itself, which are generally more annoying than painful (until you spend meter), but in the fact that it allows you to use Shadow Evade, one of the best stances in the game. Trying to spend as much time as possible in SE is probably the best way to use Raphael offensively.

Probably not a discussion here.. but the timing to JG against SE A and B is identical... fortunately.. you can kinda mess the timing up a bit by delaying those moves when you get into SE... and SE K is always a good choice.

..... on another note... I saw SE K stepped for the first time a few days ago..... but seeing it stepped once to me is just a fluke

----------------------------

minor updates on original post

basically added Heaton's Prep K chart
and changed a bit with 22A

will make more changes when i get a chance...

-LAU

 

[WuHT]

Reading up i'd like some more discussion on 1A vs 2K.

It seems to me that 2K actually tracks pretty decent to Raph's left due to character re-alignment. 1A tracks well to Raph's right simply because of the fat weapon path to raph's right (like like how 6A will always catch left steppers at the right range).

1A will fail consistently against movement to raph's left, but also at close range movement to raph's right. Very similiar issue with why prep K is "unreliable" it appears.

Lastly, 33B and 99B will sometimes hit people QSing and guarding only because the attack seems to have a fat hitbox to whichever side you step to. This means that there is a chance that you may attack someone stepping in the same direction as you, and this is more easily observed at close range. There is 100% chance of failure in tracking if the opponent steps in the opposite direction, as the hitbox seems to only jut out from the side that raph originally executed either 33B or 99B.