Stop making match-up charts!

Quoting myself since, although no one openly agreed with this, the same theme continues to be echoed throughout this thread...

With Amy....You have to play around Amy's style the whole time. You must. There is no way around it, her tools are just that good. Are there ways to get around her stuff? Absolutely. But the key factor is that the only way to beat Amy is to take gambles and/or strategize around everything she can do as best you can. This is what makes her a top tier. Not her 6BB, not her 2B+K, not her wakeup, not her safety, not her aGIs, but ALL of these things combined that you, as the opponent, must always keep in mind throughout the fight.

So why is Amy not the best legal character in the game again?
 
I could tell you my own rationalization, but I like the discussion between you all much, much more. >_>
 
I'm pretty sure Belial said it, but the reason Amy's so effect is because she has tons of options defensively and offensively that cover a wide range of the opponent's because of the game's mechanics (which is why she can basically go into matches with the same type of game regardless of character).

I mean, you used 33B blocked as an example but you also have to realize that, because of her tools (her aGIs in particular), the defensive player doesn't necessarily gain the initiative. Even after 33B, she has the ability to step G/whiff punish, do a KD TC attack, use an aGI, or just block.

I mean, you were talking about delaying attacks, but, knowing personally how Thugish plays, he probably just isn't comfortable playing you yet. Any time you go defensive, you're forfeiting your advantage and giving your opponent the ability to continue their mixup. I'm not saying being defensive is a bad thing in the least, but I think you're honestly underestimating Amy's tools and not realizing you're still playing to Amy's tune.

Still, I honestly don't think she's as bad as some people, so yeah. She just has a bunch of more specialized, mini-asuras. >_>

I didn't always delay attacks, in fact I hit him with like 4 CH WP 3As in a row later on in the set, but yeah obviously he adapted or else he wouldn't have beat me.
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Playing defensive isn't underestimating Amy's tools, it's the opposite. It doesn't matter which character (that isn't banned) YOU pick, you still have to let Amy dictate the offensive. If the character can't punish her hard after stepped and/or blocked moves, they're pretty much screwed. Simple as that. This is a LONG discussion about Amy yall are havin...

What do you mean by letting her "dictate" the offensive? That sounds kinda vague to me. If you mean let her run up to you and freely mix you up whenever she wants, I'd have to disagree.
 
Good lord this is gonna happen every calibur now since I've been winning. Happened in sc3 with x where ppl tried to disect my gameplay. Now 4 with Amy. It's a good discussion for sure! But I don't think I do anything special in either game. Keep going though, I like the discussion!
 
What do you mean by letting her "dictate" the offensive? That sounds kinda vague to me. If you mean let her run up to you and freely mix you up whenever she wants, I'd have to disagree.
sorta like that but not that simple. You can limit her options with spacing and stepping, and make her think by throwing in evading moves. She "dictates the offensive" cause even when you're on the offensive, you often have to do defensive attacks and maneuvers to counter her potential auto-GI's and attacking at disadvantage. When you turn that around, for the most part it's far more dangerous for any other character to attack her at disadvantage, cause they'll just get killed faster. So...you're on defense and active defense like 70% of most rounds unless you can keep her ass on the ground. It's like this EVERYONE vs Amy except for Hilde and Algol.

also Noface, if you go to FSAK, don't use Amy like an asshole...
 
Algol has his own ways of dictating offensive, so they can go back and forth depending on the Algol player's style. She might dictate offense MORE than he does, but he controls space way better. Up close Amy has to be really careful about doing much of anything at disadvantage cause of his 2B+K (best move in the game, or damn near, SUPER spammable). I've never used Algol vs Amy tho, so whatever...
 
I don't think so. Algol has an extremely hard time with Amy. I don't see how 2b+k is so good. It's just safe and pushes out a bit. It's not that fast. And Amy can step it
 
2 Things:

1. NoFace before u go to FSAK look over ur matches again from Dev with u vs. Thuggish and even Dreamkiller to a lesser extent. Don't get caught up in the theoreticals for Amy. She is not wat most make her out to be. I say this because u had it right at Dev. I would get into detail about all the things u did right that in my eyes u had Thuggish one up'ed by a significant margin until u did what most do against her and choked (ducking for no reason with back to edge leading to ringout heaven like 5 in a row I think). Build off the things u did u had the right idea.

Good lord this is gonna happen every calibur now since I've been winning. Happened in sc3 with x where ppl tried to disect my gameplay. Now 4 with Amy.

2. Thuggish if SC5 does end up being created which I doubt I promise SC4 will be ur last reign. People bow down to ur characters of choice before the matches even begin. Its funny but ur victories are won before the match even begins.
 
Algol 1B can hurt her 6BB abuse more than most characters also. I guess Amy can step 33B Algol 2B+K, but I haven't played the matchup at all so I'll let you have it. Algol 2B+K pushback mixed with Algol's backstep and the desire for anyone who's fighting Algol to get really close to him is too good. 2B+K, backstep 2B+K is great. 2B+K, 2A is great, 2B+K, GI, 2B+K is great. 2B+K forces opponent to not ever try and duck a grab mixup (so he gets free grab attempts all day) and it makes opponent scared to attack at any kinda disadvantage. It's also not so easy to step for most characters. 2B+K also destroys CF meter pretty quickly, and obviously, it does combo damage on hit. But yea, Algol vs. Amy in particular, I guess you're right...
 
2 Things:




2. Thuggish if SC5 does end up being created which I doubt I promise SC4 will be ur last reign. People bow down to ur characters of choice before the matches even begin. Its funny but ur victories are won before the match even begins.

It'll just be another character for me if it isn't her again. There'll always be a character for me (:

I wish sc2 was back. There's like 3 or 4 characters I liked in that one.
 
Don't worry, Sets is going to beast all of them, so you'll just have to have fun picking who you like to lose with the most.
 
It'll just be another character for me if it isn't her again. There'll always be a character for me (:

I wish sc2 was back. There's like 3 or 4 characters I liked in that one.

Well u will always be a beast and I believe whatever character u choose will be considered X and or Amy status.

I wish I was around for SC2 but oh well.

I mainly made the above statement though because I plan to take ur spotlight. I learned what I needed to with SC4 to catch up to the vets so watch out muahaha! Just friendly banter.
 
You dont quite seem to understand. If thuggish picked character based on non-competetive reasons he'd stick to X like Kayane. Namco makes characters top tier, Damien picks it. not the other way around.

I'm not trying to belittle Damien here, I'm just against that "TP makes characters top tier" nonsense. Omega makes chars top tier, Kura does, Keev does, Shen Yuan does, well, I do. To make char top tier you have to use it at its maximum or even above it. And Damien doesnt even use Amy to its full, as an "Amy expert" I assure you of this.
What is true is that he wins b/c he is extremely talented, and is one of the best players in the world. Paired with great character is makes him win a bit more tournaments than other tops. Thats all there is to it, and all there ever will be.
 
You dont quite seem to understand. If thuggish picked character based on non-competetive reasons he'd stick to X like Kayane. Namco makes characters top tier, Damien picks it. not the other way around.

This statement is 100% correct.

I'm not trying to belittle Damien here, I'm just against that "TP makes characters top tier" nonsense. Omega makes chars top tier, Kura does, Keev does, Shen Yuan does, well, I do. To make char top tier you have to use it at its maximum or even above it. And Damien doesnt even use Amy to its full, as an "Amy expert" I assure you of this.

I'll use me as the forefront to respond to this since I can hit base here. I am not on the boat that believes TP makes characters top tier. I'm also in disagreement that people like Omega, Kura, Keev, etc. make characters top tier regardless of how good they are. I know Omega is beast for a fact after competing against him but u could make an argument that he get's as far as he does cause people are oblivious fighting Zasalamel (this is fact). This included me at one point. I sparred with Omega in a FT5 before the tournament in which he had me 4-0 before I began to understand what was going on. I had no idea how many +frames, -frames, or lack thereof was being thrown around. But proceeding that 4-0 I came back 3-4 straight (can't remember). Had I not competed against him in that set prior to the tournament he would have stomped me in the actual event. The U.S has no Zas or had a Zas (that is also fact). There is no Zasalamel experience to obtain and that combined with Omega's talent which he has in spades well u can figure out the rest.

Post that set I could compete as u can see in the outcome of our match in the tournament [2-0]. Later in the hotel not known to the masses I also outpaced him. Do u see the complete 360? With all the above said one could make an argument that Omega gets as far as he does because of no Zasalamel experience and to be honest it would be a legit argument but... its tacky and ridiculous. The reason being is in the end Omega wins, TP wins, and their opponents ignorance toward their character is not their fault but the faults of their opponents. Go in the match knowing ur shit and if ur better than them u should win. Otherwise he wins because of "blah blah blah" is 100% bullshit cause again in the end who won?

What is true is that he wins b/c he is extremely talented, and is one of the best players in the world. Paired with great character is makes him win a bit more tournaments than other tops. Thats all there is to it, and all there ever will be.

There all people u can tell have talent and even more so when u compete against them. TP is talented and is the best SC4 player in the world not one of. "Results come before all". The one time results fall short is when that person is inconsistent such as "doing great at one event and tanking at a million others". TP is 100% consistent. Him using a great character means nothing other than the fact that his opponents need to be on notice/informed about that great character. That's all their is to it and a great character does not increase victories; a broken character does. His victories being enhanced are as a result of ridiculous character ignorance. How can I make such a bold statement? The PROOF is in the videos.

New Motto for the masses "Step Ur Game Up". You can do so by spending less time crying about such and such characters tools and spend more time in the lab.

P.S. This is in response to ur post Belial but not directed at u :). Your view is warped in that u perceive Amy to be broken giving her to much theoretical credit, but u urself don't give enough credit to the fact that u spent time in the lab. The PROOF is in ur results and those sexy videos u put out hence why u can compete against her, I can, NoFace with more practice. That's three different characters and if this game lasts more will pop up I guarantee it.
 
This statement is 100% correct.



I'll use me as the forefront to respond to this since I can hit base here. I am not on the boat that believes TP makes characters top tier. I'm also in disagreement that people like Omega, Kura, Keev, etc. make characters top tier regardless of how good they are. I know Omega is beast for a fact after competing against him but u could make an argument that he get's as far as he does cause people are oblivious fighting Zasalamel (this is fact). This included me at one point. I sparred with Omega in a FT5 before the tournament in which he had me 4-0 before I began to understand what was going on. I had no idea how many +frames, -frames, or lack thereof was being thrown around. But proceeding that 4-0 I came back 3-4 straight (can't remember). Had I not competed against him in that set prior to the tournament he would have stomped me in the actual event. The U.S has no Zas or had a Zas (that is also fact). There is no Zasalamel experience to obtain and that combined with Omega's talent which he has in spades well u can figure out the rest.

Post that set I could compete as u can see in the outcome of our match in the tournament [2-0]. Later in the hotel not known to the masses I also outpaced him. Do u see the complete 360? With all the above said one could make an argument that Omega gets as far as he does because of no Zasalamel experience and to be honest it would be a legit argument but... its tacky and ridiculous. The reason being is in the end Omega wins, TP wins, and their opponents ignorance toward their character is not their fault but the faults of their opponents. Go in the match knowing ur shit and if ur better than them u should win. Otherwise he wins because of "blah blah blah" is 100% bullshit cause again in the end who won?



There all people u can tell have talent and even more so when u compete against them. TP is talented and is the best SC4 player in the world not one of. "Results come before all". The one time results fall short is when that person is inconsistent such as "doing great at one event and tanking at a million others". TP is 100% consistent. Him using a great character means nothing other than the fact that his opponents need to be on notice/informed about that great character. That's all their is to it and a great character does not increase victories; a broken character does. His victories being enhanced are as a result of ridiculous character ignorance. How can I make such a bold statement? The PROOF is in the videos.

New Motto for the masses "Step Ur Game Up". You can do so by spending less time crying about such and such characters tools and spend more time in the lab.

P.S. This is in response to ur post Belial but not directed at u :). Your view is warped in that u perceive Amy to be broken giving her to much theoretical credit, but u urself don't give enough credit to the fact that u spent time in the lab. The PROOF is in ur results and those sexy videos u put out hence why u can compete against her, I can, NoFace with more practice. That's three different characters and if this game lasts more will pop up I guarantee it.

Uh, thanks I guess, but 2 facts are:

1.) You don't know if that's true or not, because no amount of practice is gonna make me less retarded, it's just gonna give me more knowledge about the game and polish on my playstyle. I believe in potential, and I think thugish probably just has more of it than me. I got a lot to improve on vs. Amy, and with general game mechanics that are hard to learn because I'm an online only player except for a select few tournaments that are months, even a year apart, but thugish has stuff to learn about ivy too. So I might end up right back at point A even if he does learn Ivys gimmicks.

2.) Even if it were true, it doesn't matter because nobody in my area is going to be getting any practice any time soon. My scene has been on life support since january 09. I've literally only had 1 or 2 people to compete with since then.

Also, there's no guarantee you'll be taking Thugish's spotlight in SC5 (if it comes out) either. :P
While I am happy that some people are actually motivated and don't in with the attitude that it's hopeless, I think it's better to just let the playing do the talking.
 
algol vs amy isnt that bad considering he has 623B which negates 50/50s and can be done while waking up
 
Something_Unique

I think you have vastly underestimated what Omega accomplished there at EVO or Nationals.

Now that you mention it, I never knew that he took games of you; you being the best Kilik in the country at the time. That's a 7:3 match-up, this is the same guy that makes you guys question Zas's standings on the Tier list. The fact that people had no knowledge about Zas is because he wasn't in question, and that's true for many low tier characters. And this so called knowledge isn't anything special, all good Zas players pretty much play him the same the only difference being the players basics. People give omega props because of what he accomplished in Sc3 with an even worse Zas against an even Stronger Amy (SC3 X) against TP. And not to mention he constantly placed high in one of the strongest SC communities that had Zas Knowledge in DR.

Obviously people that value skill over simply winning tend to pick harder characters. I can relate because how I win is more important to me personally. Just remember he was once Omega Mitsurugi.

But Picking Amy is also a great skill to have. :)
 
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