Excuse me sir but... who are you?
Stop making match-up charts!
- Thread starter MONEYMUFFINS
- Start date
Excuse me sir but... who are you?
malek
[10] Knight
KingAce
KingAce, I will agree with you if you can tell me that at least some other people agree with you. Cause you just told me all this guy and girl are wrong because... you say so... Why are you the one who is right, and why are we wrong ?
Just based on Maxou vs thuggish you can say that Maxou beats Thuggish 2-0 in the first side competition. Then Thuggish beats Maxou 3-0 3-1 in the Grand Final. So 6-3 between them. You really think it's enough to say anything about a match up between two character based on just two players ? I don't think so. Maxou for example says, right after his loss, that in the end "it looks like Setsuka doesn't have any advantages on Amy" and we all laugh at him ! He lost, Thuggish won. That's all. Shenchan's Rock beats Satana's Astaroth, so what ? ShenYuan'Xiang beats Dina's Hilde, so what ? SamSam's Siegfried beats RTD's Hilde, so what ? This is just a particular match between two people. Rock can beat Ivy if Rock player is better than Ivy player.
Thuggish was the best at Cannes 2010, and that's why he won.
About Hilde, my first post about her brokeness was on the french match up chart topic : Mer Jan 07, 2009 3:58 pm
http://soulcalibur.fr/forum/viewtop...id=7cc8eed899ae603cb26abfed899e45d2&start=501
then we talked a lot about this character (and watch RTD, KDZ and Ceirnian vids) but at the time no player used her as main character in France. Some people already said they want to ban her, but as no one played her + some people ask not to ban her (myself for example or Humphrey) then nothing has been done.
Then some Fr travel to EVO and finally meet RTD and Cernian + Dina decide to stop Sophitia for Hilde in France. He basically defeats ALL THE TOP FR PLAYER with her in FT5 or FT10. So right after Cannes 2010, the Fr community vote and decide to ban (I was still against this but... the majority decide).
About Omega you're right. Everyone told me the same thing. But even with this statement, I cannot forget our fight and the feeling that this character is unstoppable. I know I'm wrong cause everyone else told me so, but his CF game, his spacing game, his combo, all this is still in my mind.
I have lots of strats against Amy just like avoid close range, step her, JustUkemi her 236KK, decide to duck from time to time based on previous opponent moves, press her on ground (she is strong to press on ground but weak to avoid pressure), always try to Gi her auto Gi, jump a lot cause she don't have lots of damage from air combo, use powerfull CF move on her, don't be afraid to use unsafe move cause 6:6B is her best punishment and it's not very powerfull considering the fact the player can missed it or you can just ukemi it, never freeze, choose a guard on wake wake and try to understand what is going to be the next mind game of your oponent, don't be afraid to take damage on your choices if you can deal more the day your choices will work, + specific strat proper to Ivy.
But the question I wanna ask you is, you talked about "our knowledge". Do all the US players agree with you ? Do all of them think Fr match up chart is stupid cause we said Amy is weaker than Cassandra ?
SU
Yep.
Kayane found some tech however. Still risky, but hey it's a bad match up. It's better to try something risky than to die for sure. So right after 1B B+K, she uses 66+BK (unsafe but Ivy can only punish it with 6K) or 66A (but sometimes this move wiff... randomly). Also, she 8wr on Ivy left side then 88*5B and pressure a lot on Ivy's wake up with FC 3B and WS A+B. But then yo can also use CL 214B wich is always broken against X at some range cause she annot punish it properly. FC 3B will whiff and 66*5*66B+K is her only way to punish it, but the timing differs depending on the distance where CL 214B hit her... so it's not possible to master this 100%. And she is forced to attack or else she will die to CF game or use random Gi.. which is VERY dangerous. But still, she beats me recently 2-0 ah ah
But yeah CL 1B B+K do the job in this match up. It beats 44B, 1B+K and all the rest.
KingAce, I will agree with you if you can tell me that at least some other people agree with you. Cause you just told me all this guy and girl are wrong because... you say so... Why are you the one who is right, and why are we wrong ?
Just based on Maxou vs thuggish you can say that Maxou beats Thuggish 2-0 in the first side competition. Then Thuggish beats Maxou 3-0 3-1 in the Grand Final. So 6-3 between them. You really think it's enough to say anything about a match up between two character based on just two players ? I don't think so. Maxou for example says, right after his loss, that in the end "it looks like Setsuka doesn't have any advantages on Amy" and we all laugh at him ! He lost, Thuggish won. That's all. Shenchan's Rock beats Satana's Astaroth, so what ? ShenYuan'Xiang beats Dina's Hilde, so what ? SamSam's Siegfried beats RTD's Hilde, so what ? This is just a particular match between two people. Rock can beat Ivy if Rock player is better than Ivy player.
Thuggish was the best at Cannes 2010, and that's why he won.
About Hilde, my first post about her brokeness was on the french match up chart topic : Mer Jan 07, 2009 3:58 pm
http://soulcalibur.fr/forum/viewtop...id=7cc8eed899ae603cb26abfed899e45d2&start=501
then we talked a lot about this character (and watch RTD, KDZ and Ceirnian vids) but at the time no player used her as main character in France. Some people already said they want to ban her, but as no one played her + some people ask not to ban her (myself for example or Humphrey) then nothing has been done.
Then some Fr travel to EVO and finally meet RTD and Cernian + Dina decide to stop Sophitia for Hilde in France. He basically defeats ALL THE TOP FR PLAYER with her in FT5 or FT10. So right after Cannes 2010, the Fr community vote and decide to ban (I was still against this but... the majority decide).
About Omega you're right. Everyone told me the same thing. But even with this statement, I cannot forget our fight and the feeling that this character is unstoppable. I know I'm wrong cause everyone else told me so, but his CF game, his spacing game, his combo, all this is still in my mind.
I have lots of strats against Amy just like avoid close range, step her, JustUkemi her 236KK, decide to duck from time to time based on previous opponent moves, press her on ground (she is strong to press on ground but weak to avoid pressure), always try to Gi her auto Gi, jump a lot cause she don't have lots of damage from air combo, use powerfull CF move on her, don't be afraid to use unsafe move cause 6:6B is her best punishment and it's not very powerfull considering the fact the player can missed it or you can just ukemi it, never freeze, choose a guard on wake wake and try to understand what is going to be the next mind game of your oponent, don't be afraid to take damage on your choices if you can deal more the day your choices will work, + specific strat proper to Ivy.
But the question I wanna ask you is, you talked about "our knowledge". Do all the US players agree with you ? Do all of them think Fr match up chart is stupid cause we said Amy is weaker than Cassandra ?
SU
Yep.
Kayane found some tech however. Still risky, but hey it's a bad match up. It's better to try something risky than to die for sure. So right after 1B B+K, she uses 66+BK (unsafe but Ivy can only punish it with 6K) or 66A (but sometimes this move wiff... randomly). Also, she 8wr on Ivy left side then 88*5B and pressure a lot on Ivy's wake up with FC 3B and WS A+B. But then yo can also use CL 214B wich is always broken against X at some range cause she annot punish it properly. FC 3B will whiff and 66*5*66B+K is her only way to punish it, but the timing differs depending on the distance where CL 214B hit her... so it's not possible to master this 100%. And she is forced to attack or else she will die to CF game or use random Gi.. which is VERY dangerous. But still, she beats me recently 2-0 ah ah
But yeah CL 1B B+K do the job in this match up. It beats 44B, 1B+K and all the rest.
sWoRD_LoRD
[09] Warrior
lol, Omega's THAT good huh?
Something-Unique
[10] Knight
Malek:
Nice extra info that I could use. X's movement is so good as well as her moves with built in step that I find she places limitations on Ivy's versatility. Because she is so fast to much faster compared to Ivy the few tracking moves she has are to slow. As it stands for me so far from what I notice CL is key in the matchup with CL 1B B+K, CH CL 3A (catches her built in step moves) and her general movement that allows me to space for stance switch setups. I don't use CL 214B since I cater toward a safe playstyle but if it works I will use it. I think ull be surprised how unorthodox my Ivy is and she's still new.
On the matter regarding Omega he's just phenomenal and people underestimate Zasalamels tier placement/effectiveness.
I think u were baffled by his skill level. I think u would do better a second time but I can't say u would beat him. Also Ivy's movement is nerfed against Zasa's ability to track and even though he is unsafe on a number of things Ivy can't really punish him. She can't dominate the matchup.
The key thing in ur statement that makes u able, me, and Belial to give Amy an uphill battle is don't freeze. People still don't get this.
Nice extra info that I could use. X's movement is so good as well as her moves with built in step that I find she places limitations on Ivy's versatility. Because she is so fast to much faster compared to Ivy the few tracking moves she has are to slow. As it stands for me so far from what I notice CL is key in the matchup with CL 1B B+K, CH CL 3A (catches her built in step moves) and her general movement that allows me to space for stance switch setups. I don't use CL 214B since I cater toward a safe playstyle but if it works I will use it. I think ull be surprised how unorthodox my Ivy is and she's still new.
On the matter regarding Omega he's just phenomenal and people underestimate Zasalamels tier placement/effectiveness.
I think u were baffled by his skill level. I think u would do better a second time but I can't say u would beat him. Also Ivy's movement is nerfed against Zasa's ability to track and even though he is unsafe on a number of things Ivy can't really punish him. She can't dominate the matchup.
The key thing in ur statement that makes u able, me, and Belial to give Amy an uphill battle is don't freeze. People still don't get this.
ZeroEffect317
[13] Hero
Speaking of Omega, I think that how well he does/did with Zas says two things:
1. He's a really talented player that knows how to win
2. This game is a lot more balanced than people have given it credit for all this time.
That's why people have hard times rating certain characters place on tier lists and all that. A character doesn't suddenly jump up in ranking due to one great player's success. If Kura had beaten Thugish at Nationals with Talim, we'd have lots of people saying how Talim is suddenly mid-tier or better when that's clearly not the case. It just means the character wasn't "impossible to win with" as everyone thought once someone was willing to put in some work.
Again, Amy can be beaten, but that doesn't mean she isn't tops in the game. The fact that both you and Malek have devised these in-depth strategies in the first place is a testament to just how good the character is. That's why I don't get the whole debate about her.
I think people, especially the people who think they're the best in the community, have a tendency to overlook the obvious a lot of times. This is likely because they travel, place well in tournies where they face many different players using these same top tiers. They figure because they can beat them, these top tiers must not be as good as everyone thinks. Understandable, I suppose. But I am asking all of you to try to look at things objectively.
With Amy....You have to play around Amy's style the whole time. You must. There is no way around it, her tools are just that good. Are there ways to get around her stuff? Absolutely. But the key factor is that the only way to beat Amy is to take gambles and/or strategize around everything she can do as best you can. This is what makes her a top tier. Not her 6BB, not her 2B+K, not her wakeup, not her safety, not her aGIs, but ALL of these things combined that you, as the opponent, must always keep in mind throughout the fight.
Ivy in a lot of ways is the same. I've always thought Ivy was top tier for these same reasons. Not just based on my own experience, but from seeing what it is Ivy has to work with while watching plenty of other Ivys.
She has the tools for every situation, just like Amy does, but Ivy requires a lot of work to play to her fullest, so people dismiss her from being that good. They look too hard into her minute weaknesses and bad frames. I wouldn't say she's broken, but she is so versatile that it can oftentimes seem that way.
Kilik has Asura. On it's own, it's beatable.... you can bait it, you can GI the second hit, step, use kicks, highs, etc.... But when you combine this move with his other tools (for example: WS B) you start to see how the THREAT of Asura becomes super relevant. Do you chance a high in anticipation of Asura? or do you chance a mid to thwart the TCs? With this said, is Kilik beatable? Yes of course. But again, you have to play around many tools of his in order to stand a chance.
See where I'm going with this?
As much as I like to discuss matchups and in-depth character analysis, (which is necessary when figuring advantaged/disadvantaged matchups), it's little oversights like this that make people delude themselves into thinking some of the established top characters are worse than they are.
1. He's a really talented player that knows how to win
2. This game is a lot more balanced than people have given it credit for all this time.
That's why people have hard times rating certain characters place on tier lists and all that. A character doesn't suddenly jump up in ranking due to one great player's success. If Kura had beaten Thugish at Nationals with Talim, we'd have lots of people saying how Talim is suddenly mid-tier or better when that's clearly not the case. It just means the character wasn't "impossible to win with" as everyone thought once someone was willing to put in some work.
Again, Amy can be beaten, but that doesn't mean she isn't tops in the game. The fact that both you and Malek have devised these in-depth strategies in the first place is a testament to just how good the character is. That's why I don't get the whole debate about her.
I think people, especially the people who think they're the best in the community, have a tendency to overlook the obvious a lot of times. This is likely because they travel, place well in tournies where they face many different players using these same top tiers. They figure because they can beat them, these top tiers must not be as good as everyone thinks. Understandable, I suppose. But I am asking all of you to try to look at things objectively.
With Amy....You have to play around Amy's style the whole time. You must. There is no way around it, her tools are just that good. Are there ways to get around her stuff? Absolutely. But the key factor is that the only way to beat Amy is to take gambles and/or strategize around everything she can do as best you can. This is what makes her a top tier. Not her 6BB, not her 2B+K, not her wakeup, not her safety, not her aGIs, but ALL of these things combined that you, as the opponent, must always keep in mind throughout the fight.
Ivy in a lot of ways is the same. I've always thought Ivy was top tier for these same reasons. Not just based on my own experience, but from seeing what it is Ivy has to work with while watching plenty of other Ivys.
She has the tools for every situation, just like Amy does, but Ivy requires a lot of work to play to her fullest, so people dismiss her from being that good. They look too hard into her minute weaknesses and bad frames. I wouldn't say she's broken, but she is so versatile that it can oftentimes seem that way.
Kilik has Asura. On it's own, it's beatable.... you can bait it, you can GI the second hit, step, use kicks, highs, etc.... But when you combine this move with his other tools (for example: WS B) you start to see how the THREAT of Asura becomes super relevant. Do you chance a high in anticipation of Asura? or do you chance a mid to thwart the TCs? With this said, is Kilik beatable? Yes of course. But again, you have to play around many tools of his in order to stand a chance.
See where I'm going with this?
As much as I like to discuss matchups and in-depth character analysis, (which is necessary when figuring advantaged/disadvantaged matchups), it's little oversights like this that make people delude themselves into thinking some of the established top characters are worse than they are.
KingAce
HERMITISM
And who the fuck are you?
Malek,
For me it makes perfect sense that we don't have an official tier list. Because they're just too many variables to consider to even come up with one. Of course you Elitist like to place yourselves on a pedestal and believe what you say to bring true, never truly the case. I highly doubt everyone in France came to majority decision about that list, I bet it was just the Elite crowd deciding on the outcome, because you guys are so knowledgeable.
Either way I don't think you're list is stupid, just out there. Here we might not have an official list but we damn sure have a general idea.
Setsuka hasn't won anything here, she has never had a real presence here, us placing her on top, makes 0 sense.
No seriously, in france many players have a good knowledge of the US/world community, but all the day in the french forum, the question was "but who is this mysterious Kingace? he must be known cuz he has a very important numbers of post on 8way run"
Excuse my English, can't be an elite in all domains haha
Excuse my English, can't be an elite in all domains haha
TheHumanTyphoon
[08] Mercenary
Dont listen to everything kingace says. not everyone here agrees with him either.
InsaneKhent
[12] Conqueror
Well for the love of Baby Jesus, The Virgin Mary and Saint Joseph - France's chart is almost dead on with their appraisal of Mi-na's tier position. I say "almost" because I simply disagree that Rock is worse than she is. Yoda aside, why is she not dead last, France?
I don't care about their exact numbers, but having her at a disdvantage to everyone because her basic design is flawed? I completely agree, and it's uphill battles everywhere.
I don't care about their exact numbers, but having her at a disdvantage to everyone because her basic design is flawed? I completely agree, and it's uphill battles everywhere.
malek
[10] Knight
Typhoon
Ok, thx.
Zero
I have in depth strategie for all the character in the game, not just Amy. I just answer for Amy cause KingAce ask me to.
If you planned to face Setsuka without in depth strategie, you'll probably die very quickly. Same for Sophitia, Cassandra, Astaroth, Voldo, Cervantes, etc... Even Maxi need in depth strategie in order to be defeat. Ok Rock and Mina don't really need one but that's all.
so yeah you have to adapt to Amy when you face on, but the Amy player has to adapt your character too. If he don't do that he'll loose, event with Amy.
I mean Voldo has a CF game beyong broken. An unbelievable range, throws from back broken, an excellent auto Gi, lots of option to RO, punishment, he is safe, has some tools (not so much ok) to deal with stepper, etc...
Sophitia can deal half life in one move ! TAS avoid 90% of the mid, TAB B is safe, strong for CF and tracks, she punish almost everything, she is safe, she has very good CF game, she has a throw 70 damage (!). She has lots of range.She just lack some very good lows and RO option.
Setsuka can deal 90 damage out of a middle ! 33B is broken. She has very strong throw, the best move to punish in the game, RO + wall combos, she is VERY SAFE, can use so many option when she is at disadvantage (with good risk/reward), and many more option like 1AAA, 1BB, 11A (against steppers), etc...
Cassandra can also punish. she punish less things, but she punish better than Setsu and Sophi. She has problem with range (just like Amy) but her RO option are insane, her damage are strong, her wake up game is very good, her throws are strong, she has very good standard AA, BB, 2K, etc...
etc etc..
We never said: Amy is weak. We just said, they are some character who are better.
But I understand what you wanted to told me.
InsaneKhent
Rock is really bad. Once you know how to un throw him in order to avoid RO, then it's almost over for him. Mina has more damage on her throw than him... But that was (and still is) a debate between Rock and Mina. Keev, Pantocrator and Saitoh think she is the worst. Ahriman and I don't think so. We have still some diffrent idea on some match up. I think for example that Hilde-Mina is 3-7 and Mina-Night is 4-6, I tried with Keev but he was not ready for this match up at the time, and now I give up with her... But well, no one really care about these two.
Ok, thx.
Zero
I have in depth strategie for all the character in the game, not just Amy. I just answer for Amy cause KingAce ask me to.
If you planned to face Setsuka without in depth strategie, you'll probably die very quickly. Same for Sophitia, Cassandra, Astaroth, Voldo, Cervantes, etc... Even Maxi need in depth strategie in order to be defeat. Ok Rock and Mina don't really need one but that's all.
so yeah you have to adapt to Amy when you face on, but the Amy player has to adapt your character too. If he don't do that he'll loose, event with Amy.
I mean Voldo has a CF game beyong broken. An unbelievable range, throws from back broken, an excellent auto Gi, lots of option to RO, punishment, he is safe, has some tools (not so much ok) to deal with stepper, etc...
Sophitia can deal half life in one move ! TAS avoid 90% of the mid, TAB B is safe, strong for CF and tracks, she punish almost everything, she is safe, she has very good CF game, she has a throw 70 damage (!). She has lots of range.She just lack some very good lows and RO option.
Setsuka can deal 90 damage out of a middle ! 33B is broken. She has very strong throw, the best move to punish in the game, RO + wall combos, she is VERY SAFE, can use so many option when she is at disadvantage (with good risk/reward), and many more option like 1AAA, 1BB, 11A (against steppers), etc...
Cassandra can also punish. she punish less things, but she punish better than Setsu and Sophi. She has problem with range (just like Amy) but her RO option are insane, her damage are strong, her wake up game is very good, her throws are strong, she has very good standard AA, BB, 2K, etc...
etc etc..
We never said: Amy is weak. We just said, they are some character who are better.
But I understand what you wanted to told me.
InsaneKhent
Rock is really bad. Once you know how to un throw him in order to avoid RO, then it's almost over for him. Mina has more damage on her throw than him... But that was (and still is) a debate between Rock and Mina. Keev, Pantocrator and Saitoh think she is the worst. Ahriman and I don't think so. We have still some diffrent idea on some match up. I think for example that Hilde-Mina is 3-7 and Mina-Night is 4-6, I tried with Keev but he was not ready for this match up at the time, and now I give up with her... But well, no one really care about these two.
ZeroEffect317
[13] Hero
@Malek
From what I've seen of you, you are a great player. I figured that you had personal strategies against the whole cast. It's needed to be successful. All I was saying is that where someone would normally plan their strategies to neutralize the opposing character's options, when dealing with a "top-tier" character you end up having to base strategies on being cautious about their options instead.
So instead of taking them out of their element, strategically, you are generally taken out of yours from the start.
And yeah adaptation is necessary regardless of who you fight against. Every character has stuff to look out for, but there's a difference for me to play keeping one solid counter option in mind, (i.e. Mina 4A) then to have to play with several solid counter options to worry about at once. (i.e. Amy high aGI, Mid aGI, A+K jump, 3B, 2B+K,etc...)
Setsuka is really the only one i can't be sure of since I haven't really seen a Setsuka player that plays with lots of anti-character knowledge. It's mostly just destructive offense, heh.
From what I've seen of you, you are a great player. I figured that you had personal strategies against the whole cast. It's needed to be successful. All I was saying is that where someone would normally plan their strategies to neutralize the opposing character's options, when dealing with a "top-tier" character you end up having to base strategies on being cautious about their options instead.
So instead of taking them out of their element, strategically, you are generally taken out of yours from the start.
And yeah adaptation is necessary regardless of who you fight against. Every character has stuff to look out for, but there's a difference for me to play keeping one solid counter option in mind, (i.e. Mina 4A) then to have to play with several solid counter options to worry about at once. (i.e. Amy high aGI, Mid aGI, A+K jump, 3B, 2B+K,etc...)
Setsuka is really the only one i can't be sure of since I haven't really seen a Setsuka player that plays with lots of anti-character knowledge. It's mostly just destructive offense, heh.
InsaneKhent
[12] Conqueror
Malek:
Aside from a lot of nit-picking things that bug me about Mi-na, the reasons I think she's in the dead bottom of tiers is due to two main things:
1. Most people say she suffers at close range, which is completely true.....but I suspect that other than TidalLeaf and myself, no one knows the real reason she's so bad there; the fact that she has abysmal tools in dealing with duckers at that range unless she's in FC. In my research and experience, everything that penalizes duckers harshly is unsafe and not very fast. 1BB doesn't NC. 6AK does not stand them up and leaves you open for 18 frames of punishment. Most people talk about wanting to get thier opponents to duck; Mi-na wants them standing more often than not. When you factor this in combined with her inability to stop bulldogging without resorting to slower (and possibly unsafe) moves to get decent CH reward, it becomes stupidly problematic in the system of SC.
2. Holes/exploits/problems everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Far too many negative frames on hit. I don't even wanna go through the entire laundry list.
ZeroEffect317 plays me constantly since we live in the same town. This guy has every bit of Anti-Mina perfected to a T. He takes advantage of every little hole that she has, and it annoys me to no end that it's even possible to do. I watched him absolutely demolish another Seong Mi-na player in casuals at a recent monthly tournament. The guy wasn't really good, but it wasn't like he was making horrible decisions either; I mean, the guy got launched for doing AA since it's duckable inbetween. AA for crying out loud!
Bottom line is that the level of decision-making required to win with this character is atrocious. And it's atrocious in the way of "Why do I even have to go this far?" I myself am very fortunate to have a solid foundation in basics, so I'm able to stand up to a lot of people with her. But when I run into people who are better than me or I'm unfamiliar with? Forget about it. I either crash and burn entirely, or I struggle to win. And this continues until I figure them out or level myself up to match their skill.
I used to be insistant on her being one of the better low tier characters, and now I see the error in judgement I had.
Anyway, I don't play Rock or know much about him so I won't debate his position as lower than Mi-na on France's chart anymore. I hear he's at least fun to use, though.
Aside from a lot of nit-picking things that bug me about Mi-na, the reasons I think she's in the dead bottom of tiers is due to two main things:
1. Most people say she suffers at close range, which is completely true.....but I suspect that other than TidalLeaf and myself, no one knows the real reason she's so bad there; the fact that she has abysmal tools in dealing with duckers at that range unless she's in FC. In my research and experience, everything that penalizes duckers harshly is unsafe and not very fast. 1BB doesn't NC. 6AK does not stand them up and leaves you open for 18 frames of punishment. Most people talk about wanting to get thier opponents to duck; Mi-na wants them standing more often than not. When you factor this in combined with her inability to stop bulldogging without resorting to slower (and possibly unsafe) moves to get decent CH reward, it becomes stupidly problematic in the system of SC.
2. Holes/exploits/problems everywhere. EVERYWHERE. Far too many negative frames on hit. I don't even wanna go through the entire laundry list.
ZeroEffect317 plays me constantly since we live in the same town. This guy has every bit of Anti-Mina perfected to a T. He takes advantage of every little hole that she has, and it annoys me to no end that it's even possible to do. I watched him absolutely demolish another Seong Mi-na player in casuals at a recent monthly tournament. The guy wasn't really good, but it wasn't like he was making horrible decisions either; I mean, the guy got launched for doing AA since it's duckable inbetween. AA for crying out loud!
Bottom line is that the level of decision-making required to win with this character is atrocious. And it's atrocious in the way of "Why do I even have to go this far?" I myself am very fortunate to have a solid foundation in basics, so I'm able to stand up to a lot of people with her. But when I run into people who are better than me or I'm unfamiliar with? Forget about it. I either crash and burn entirely, or I struggle to win. And this continues until I figure them out or level myself up to match their skill.
I used to be insistant on her being one of the better low tier characters, and now I see the error in judgement I had.
Anyway, I don't play Rock or know much about him so I won't debate his position as lower than Mi-na on France's chart anymore. I hear he's at least fun to use, though.
Maxou
[11] Champion
KingAce : ??? Don't really understand your point. I lost to thugish because he outplayed me. That's all. Not because Amy > Setsuka. Actually I have very poor Amy "in depth" knowledge, I lack match up experience. The same could be said for ThuggishPond although he does have a regular training partner who plays Setsuka. Hence, it says nothing about the match up, only about the better player.
The U.S community just have NO Setsuka experience. You guys just don't know how to play the character, then don't have any correct opinions about it.
The best Setsuka US player is TheHumanTyphoon (probably) and although he has solid basics, he lacks a lot of things, which put apart are uninportant but put together make the difference between a successfull Setsuka player and a unsuccessful one.
Let's take S-U : I talked in the Sets forum about the usefulness of moves like 214~3B:B and 1B:B, he disagreed ! Why? Because of lack of... flexibility. This is a very important thing when playing Setsuka (and other characters but especially Setsuka, when playing only one way make you lose - I recently lost several fight against Malek because I was too stubborn to change my gameplay) that a lot of people can't understand.
France community plays a lot of character, and a lot better than US. That's a fact. You guys are just successful tier whores. We do have the advantage :) for theory fighting.
EDIT : Forgot ShenRei !! Never saw him play so I cannot say for him !!!
The U.S community just have NO Setsuka experience. You guys just don't know how to play the character, then don't have any correct opinions about it.
The best Setsuka US player is TheHumanTyphoon (probably) and although he has solid basics, he lacks a lot of things, which put apart are uninportant but put together make the difference between a successfull Setsuka player and a unsuccessful one.
Let's take S-U : I talked in the Sets forum about the usefulness of moves like 214~3B:B and 1B:B, he disagreed ! Why? Because of lack of... flexibility. This is a very important thing when playing Setsuka (and other characters but especially Setsuka, when playing only one way make you lose - I recently lost several fight against Malek because I was too stubborn to change my gameplay) that a lot of people can't understand.
France community plays a lot of character, and a lot better than US. That's a fact. You guys are just successful tier whores. We do have the advantage :) for theory fighting.
EDIT : Forgot ShenRei !! Never saw him play so I cannot say for him !!!
KingAce
HERMITISM
I agree, we don't see the setsuka you see because we don't play her, and she doesn't win anything here. And we base our tier list on ease of wins. As in who has the best tools to get wins fast and easily.
Otherwise, in my theory Yoshimitsu is the best character in the game.
Hold-up. Last sentence, them's fighting words. You guys need to come to FSAK's...if you talking mess.
docvizzo
[14] Master
@ KingAce
Of course everybody knows that you are THE one and only oracle when it comes to theoryfighting, its cool, every forum needs such a guy. Still i would be very delighted if you could explain your point of view a bit more.
The tierlist is based on the matchups, so instead of saying "this and that" is not true, have a look in the matchup chart and say EXACTLY which matchup should be changed and why. Not which position of a char.
And lol at people tried to ban Hilde after RTD showed up, in fact Dina was the main reason since he dominated in a way its not even funny. You can have a look on the soulcalibur.fr for this to see how Dina owned people in FTF....
So again people start trying to discuss a tierlist which comes directly from the matchups with "but X is better than Y", this cant be true bla bla.Go to the matchups and point out whats wrong. Otherwise again like all USA discussions this is meant to fail.
EDIT: Just saw your Yoshi Theory. I play against Yoshi 90% of the time. i know this matchup in and out. really interested in some explanations to this.
Of course everybody knows that you are THE one and only oracle when it comes to theoryfighting, its cool, every forum needs such a guy. Still i would be very delighted if you could explain your point of view a bit more.
The tierlist is based on the matchups, so instead of saying "this and that" is not true, have a look in the matchup chart and say EXACTLY which matchup should be changed and why. Not which position of a char.
And lol at people tried to ban Hilde after RTD showed up, in fact Dina was the main reason since he dominated in a way its not even funny. You can have a look on the soulcalibur.fr for this to see how Dina owned people in FTF....
So again people start trying to discuss a tierlist which comes directly from the matchups with "but X is better than Y", this cant be true bla bla.Go to the matchups and point out whats wrong. Otherwise again like all USA discussions this is meant to fail.
EDIT: Just saw your Yoshi Theory. I play against Yoshi 90% of the time. i know this matchup in and out. really interested in some explanations to this.
Furzy
The "almost-french" guy
Well he did say "in theory" so I guess you could seppuku + JF life recovery all the time -> Yoshi top tier :p
teflon2105
[09] Warrior
Different country different views. I think an majority of players would tell you Amy is the best or 2nd best character in the game behind Hilde.
Belial
King of Hundred Swords
There are other strong Amy players in russia. For example Edge, Krelian etc
Belial DOES think Amy is broken and retarded. She is top2. Top 1 being hilde.
I have elaborated on this numerous times so im not starting this again. Keep on thinking you got it right and lose to Thuggish once again, where skill, knowledge and experience were all on french side. I know why you all lost to Thuggish it was not because Damien is just better. But obviously b/c he was smarter though, smart enough to use ridiculous character. And you were careless enough to never pay enough respect to this bitch (amy).
KingAce
HERMITISM
I have posted 0 theory in this thread, except for my opinion on Yoshi.
Fact of the matter is after Cannes, Hilde was banned, RTD did win a tournament at Cannes.
What's wrong is simple, you have all decided something is absolute when it isn't. I can openly disagree cause I play this game just like everyone else but have the balls to ignore your elitism and say what I think. Trust me a lot people disagree with those match-ups.
If you guys are happy with that list, so be it.
docvizzo
[14] Master
So if you and other people disagree with those matchups just point them out, whats the problem?
Your problem is that you think those numbers are absolute, but they are not. Who said they are absolute? If people actually argue and explain their view and have some people to back up those opinions the frenchies will talk about this. Who of the french said thats this list is 100% correct? Its only the best possible list they can provide with their experience, players etc. And the overall level in France is a lot higher than in the US. I think Something Unique will tell you the same and he is a top US player...of course nobody is going to change the list if ONE person has a opinion that differs from the majority. Just because you think Yoshi is top or Nori thinks Cervantes is top of course nobody is going to change anything. Its not elitism, its common sense.
Your problem is that you think those numbers are absolute, but they are not. Who said they are absolute? If people actually argue and explain their view and have some people to back up those opinions the frenchies will talk about this. Who of the french said thats this list is 100% correct? Its only the best possible list they can provide with their experience, players etc. And the overall level in France is a lot higher than in the US. I think Something Unique will tell you the same and he is a top US player...of course nobody is going to change the list if ONE person has a opinion that differs from the majority. Just because you think Yoshi is top or Nori thinks Cervantes is top of course nobody is going to change anything. Its not elitism, its common sense.