The 1.02 Critique (Save-A-Natsu movement!)

SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe

SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe

Red Lotus
Okay. We saw the pre-release patch notes and we can pretty much discern that they want to scale Natsu's damage and her CH options.
However, it has been addressed by our top players such as TaXi that the adjustments to the character are a tad bit overbearing.

The Goal:

Let us gather the top players in here such as Tokyo1220 (Hawkeye), Tha_Shogun, TaXi, Wombat, Masher, Okami, ASZ etc. and try to find a way to save the character from becoming overnerfed, while still respecting Namco's wishes.
-and then somebody appeal to them with a reasonable list of known bugs and requested changes before the patch hits.

The Rules:
No ranting
No drivel
Only people who know what they are talking about
(ie competitive player, natsu arena moderator, etc.)
post what you think could go differently and what definitely needs fixing.

I'll start, as this comes from people who do know their stuff and that I agree with:
- WRK did need a nerf badly.
- Bomb+skydrop should do less damage. (down to 33% from 45%)
- Do not murder FC A+B, it's important, reduce damage on 44KK instead.
 
While i do appreciate the valiant effort, i doubt that we will be able to change anything in a patch that is due in 2 days. Takes weeks for it to get approved by MS and Sony, so i doubt they will change anything simply because the Natsu section of the 8wayrun forums made some noise. At this point there is nothing we can do. Best thing we can hope for is the possibility for another patch that hopefully takes away a few of Natsu's nerfs.
 
there will likely be no other patch. Like in SC4, we get one and then we are done. Get used to the bottom guys.
 
Uber1337 said:
there will likely be no other patch. Like in SC4, we get one and then we are done. Get used to the bottom guys.
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Not so sure, it seems they're pushing to make this game a main stay in the competitive scene, which I respect. Thinking we'll see more to come, it's far too early even for this patch imho. As an OG MvC2 player, I've seen how a game changes over time and am a firm believer in letting it run it's course. Tiers and characters were still being discovered, far too early for a patch imho. Though that's how Namco always was, even with arcade versions of SCII.

I'll have to really sit with the patch before I contribute to this thread. I definitely dislike the direction they're going with it, but that much is obvious. Need some sit down time first.
 
If they were pushing this game to stay competitive, they wouldn't have patched after only three "majors" (mind you, this patch was probably already made before Final Round even took place so TWO majors), hell, before MLG and EVO.

They wouldn't patch from community feedback. They would patch from tournament play/statistics.

They're not pushing it stay competitive. Whos knows that their actually doing.


Ofcourse, this is just me being salty. I still don't know how the patch will play and my opinion might be different.
 
kk i think we should keep this thread open just in case utoh-san reads this (apparently he's the only member of Project Soul that reads english, and checks out 8wr from time to time).

here's what i think needs to be addressed:

- poison dart to cause stun on grounded opponents again. in return i'd be ok with 44K having reduced dmg and STK throw dealing less dmg.

- hitbox issues with ivy, aeon, raphael, algol, viola and ezio that cause PO A to whiff after 6A+B, and STK throw to not connect after catching these characters' left ukemi with 4A+B [after setups like 66B BE]. in return i'd be ok with increased recovery and reduced pushback for 66B on block.

i've posted on the soul calibur fb page to ask if there will be subsequent patches, as part of the team's commitment to the competitive scene.
 
Adding to that list:

BBK, BK, and 33_99K should stand the opponent when they hit crouch so the combo is actually able to be completed.
The main point of mids are to hit crouching opponents- am I mistaken?
 
a 20 frame move that is mid high, will whiff the 2nd hit if the opponent is crouching, and does only mid 20s damage is intentional?

this makes it close to useless. i could understand MAYBE saying B,K is only for punishment purposes at 15 frames, but there is no excuse for a 20 frame move to have properties like this. same with BBK, if the first hit hits a crouching opponent on CH the 2nd should stand them up, she even swings upward in the animation.
 
I could post a video, but I believe that FC A+B isn't necessary in most of the combos. After 3KKK, just doing 44KK will do the same amount of dmg as doing 3KKK, FC A+B, 44KK. WS K should really be used as a punisher rather than a CH fisher anyways, so more negative on block shouldn't be too bad, I think. Besides, we could always just do mix-ups after a duck with PO or whatevs. Heavy Burden (11K) launching lower won't affect much if it still links into 33bA+B+K into 44KK.

Then again, are we supposed to be talking about how we play Natsu after the patch or something else? :x
 
OkamiBW said:
I could post a video, but I believe that FC A+B isn't necessary in most of the combos. After 3KKK, just doing 44KK will do the same amount of dmg as doing 3KKK, FC A+B, 44KK. WS K should really be used as a punisher rather than a CH fisher anyways, so more negative on block shouldn't be too bad, I think. Besides, we could always just do mix-ups after a duck with PO or whatevs. Heavy Burden (11K) launching lower won't affect much if it still links into 33bA+B+K into 44KK.

Then again, are we supposed to be talking about how we play Natsu after the patch or something else? :x
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the opponent can tech left or right to avoid 44KKK after 3KKK... which is where bombs come in as tech traps to discourage teching.

a few comments:
  • WS K shouldn't be used as a punisher except in a scenario when you block something crouching and are at anything less than -16. at -16 you should always be using 6A+B PO A:6 to punish. and if you're in range to punish with FC A it actually gives better frame advantage (+8 as compared to +5).
  • WS K should still be used as a CH fisher... just more cautiously now.
  • PO doesn't give TC frames.
 
kAb said:
a 20 frame move that is mid high, will whiff the 2nd hit if the opponent is crouching, and does only mid 20s damage is intentional?
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A lot of characters have this one "weak" move they have that is somewhat good for beating people unfamiliar with her (like not knowing to crouch the 2nd hit)Looks like you've found one. Not every move is supposed to be awesome, which was kinda what they said about the whole wabi-sabi thing
 
so i need to rely on my opponents ignorance for a move to be good? nah, thats not right, in fact thats downright (sc)rubbish.

even if the move DID combo on crouching opponents it wouldnt be an awesome move, its mid 20s damage with a risk of being ducked for heavy punishment from many members of the cast. which is why it should be changed.
 
This thread is a joke. We're discussing about details that are better served in an already made thread. I appreciate the sentiment in opening this thread, but this patch was in the works for months, and much of what we think needs to change, is already posted elsewhere. Natsu is still competitive, but we still need to see FC A+B in action, and the general backdash nerf.
 
SoNG-Of-SiLeNCe said:
Let us gather the top players in here such as Tokyo1220 (Hawkeye), Tha_Shogun, TaXi, Wombat, Masher, Okami, ASZ etc.
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TaXi said:
the opponent can tech left or right to avoid 44KKK after 3KKK... which is where bombs come in as tech traps to discourage teching.

a few comments:
  • WS K shouldn't be used as a punisher except in a scenario when you block something crouching and are at anything less than -16. at -16 you should always be using 6A+B PO A:6 to punish. and if you're in range to punish with FC A it actually gives better frame advantage (+8 as compared to +5).
  • WS K should still be used as a CH fisher... just more cautiously now.
  • PO doesn't give TC frames.
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I don't fit in there... :x
 
Afrofrog said:
This thread is a joke. We're discussing about details that are better served in an already made thread. I appreciate the sentiment in opening this thread, but this patch was in the works for months, and much of what we think needs to change, is already posted elsewhere. Natsu is still competitive, but we still need to see FC A+B in action, and the general backdash nerf.
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actually i think the issue here is that people are going off-topic with their comments instead of making comments about the changes they want to see and why. also, song or one of the mods just needs to update the first post with the patch changes that we want.

i'm not optimistic for a second patch, but i would like for our thoughts and feedback to be made available in a clear format in the event that someone (utoh-san?) notices this thread. and at the very least it stirs discussion.

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with regards to 33KK, i have to admit that this move seems pointless at the moment. there are ways to get the second hit to land, but i think there has to be some sort of incentive to do so.

as for BK i think that it might be a bit much to have an i15 knockdown NC mid for 30 dmg that wallsplats/RO and is safe. BBK not so much since it's NCc, but then again it's more damaging (would kind of be like 3KKK being NCc).
 
I think bk would be fine since it doesn't jail on block. HOWEVER bk on a crouching opponent the opponent should stay crouched.

BBK on the other hand should force the opponent to stand and block on normal hit and NCc regardless if they crouching or not on the first CH B. bb[k] on block should not jail.

FC a+b should stun even if it only does 2 - 5 damage.

a+b should only be -10 instead of -12

I'll think of more here soon.
 
poison dart could do zero dmg but stun and i'd still use it, haha. and the safety of A+B should be proportionate to its damage output... we'll see i guess.
 
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