The AMAZING SC4 Online General Discussion Thread

[Xeph]

I was pressuring his 3b, 1a, 6k, and his 1b along with WR AA. And basically any K/B in his stances.

1b/1b/1b 3A+B? Hmm Never thought about it.

Normally use 3/6A+B after BB, 4B, 2A, 3A, 6BB, 6BB5GA+B, 1BA, 22K, or 22_88B

Although Vader has no "Online BS". Anyway you look at it, Vader has no way in shape or form to be even remotely cheap online. He doesn't even have any known Lag lows or a set of lag tactics. 4B+K may be it but it can't be blocked on reaction Offline either. Also BB ~ 1A+B works just as well online as it does offline.

Not to mention Vader has NO moves that can punish Side Roll but 4A+B Which uses meter. His 66B whiffs most of the time and his 2k can't even punish rolling. Add on top of the fact most people either Shake his BB or GI the 2nd Hit, There should be no reason to even remotely complain about vader online or offline. To Cry about falling into Impact Traps is worse than Crying about Spam. You FALL into it. I pressured you into falling into it, just the same with Mix-ups. Got tons of Hate mail for "Grabbing too much" When they won't Crouch and Fall for the 8WR A+B into 2B+K -> 3KB mix-up.

Vader is more than capable of being abused online. His 1B on block is +frames, online. The A part of 1B A can be ducked... trying to duck it on prediction (since we're talking online) allows for you to mix up, since said player can't recover from duck and interrupt on time. Also, all those strings (BB, AA, ETC.) Are either duckable or GIable on reaction.... offline. Not online. If you try and predict GI, leaves you open for a punish which shouldn't have happened offline. Another note, what Sephalump is trying to say is GIing after unsafe or "Fake frame traps" is very much so enhanced by lag. I'm speaking of GIing after 66B. That's just the icing, he's way more easily step-able offline,

Really... until you play offline, your arguments about what works offline is null. I'm talking about competing in high level, as well. Playing the CPU for 20 minutes to unlock The Apprentice, isn't valid- or your mother for that matter. Like someone said to me, either show up or shut up.

 

[Inori DWF]

And you didn't make a Definitive reason as to why He does have Online BS.

1b,1b,1b 6A+B? I don't know any Competent Vader that does 1B more than Twice. Because 8/10 Chances he will get punished for doing it three Consecutive times.

I just told you why vader has NO online BS. He has no Lag tactics or Lag lows. Vader is literally a Plain Character outside his Force moves. 2A isn't a lag low, 4B+K isn't a lag low. He doesn't have many Tech Traps, He has no Lag tactics outside of what anyone else can normally do online.

I Think you just don't generally approve of vader Simply because he's SW and a Guest Character. If you look more closely Vader is pretty damn slow even Offline. (And I would know, Got my ass handed to me by a Beasting Ivy and NM player Offline)

So tell me how can Vader be cheap online? 6A+B is a Mid/High GI. 3A+B is a Mid/Low GI. It uses meter and believe it or not It feels more delayed Online than offline. How can his Force moves be Broken online? What about his Mix-ups and a lack of Wake-up punish?

I freaking hate Siegfried/Ivy/Soph Online but Offline their actually not as Crazy as I thought they were and I enjoy beating them and losing to them. That said those 3 I named actually Have lag lactics and Lows as to which Vader doesn't.

If you can name just ONE move that vader has which would be considered online BS (Better yet a Combo, Strategy, Etc) you get a Cookie and $25.

Vader 11K is a lag low believe it or not.

GIing after something pretty unsafe is generally lag abuse iirc. Some moves just have too slow of a reset to be able to GI offline right after it.

Vader being slow is complete BS. He can force cancel safe moves and step forward making for some scary mixups. You must not use him properly.

Siegfried was never good to begin with, and Ivy/Soph are still really good offline. Shrugging off things like TAS B and Ivy 9B for instance will get you murdered in a tournament. I guarantee it.

Vader is absolutely amazing at disobeying frames online. Most of his punishable moves become safe in a 4 bar connection (even 5 bars punishes can be lagged).

While you seem to be passionate about the game, you need to start doing your homework. Otherwise people will just laugh at you. I'm being nice right now because I see you are still learning.

 

[ShadowCollector]

Vader is more than capable of being abused online. His 1B on block is +frames, online. The A part of 1B A can be ducked... trying to duck it on prediction (since we're talking online) allows for you to mix up, since said player can't recover from duck and interrupt on time. Also, all those strings (BB, AA, ETC.) Are either duckable or GIable on reaction.... offline. Not online. If you try and predict GI, leaves you open for a punish which shouldn't have happened offline. Another note, what Sephalump is trying to say is GIing after unsafe or "Fake frame traps" is very much so enhanced by lag. I'm speaking of GIing after 66B. That's just the icing, he's way more easily step-able offline,

Really... until you play offline, your arguments about what works offline is null. I'm talking about competing in high level, as well. Playing the CPU for 20 minutes to unlock The Apprentice, isn't valid- or your mother for that matter. Like someone said to me, either show up or shut up.

Let's talk Offline. 44A+K is also +Frames on block OFFLINE (Which leads into funny A+B Follow-up moments.)
Like I said BB Can be Shaked or GI on the 2nd Hit. Did you assume I was talking about Online? No.

Like I posted earlier. Vader is a Very Plain Character. Actually he would be Bottom-Mid tier (Yet he's still Mid tier.).
He's Side step punished or Crouch punished very easily. His Force Moves uses too much meter for so little Scaled damage combo Potential.

His Frames are Average to Below-Average at best. His only non-pressure moves is 4B or 6BB.

Online 6A+B is also laggy as well. You can't punish Taki's 66k or Astaroth's 66AB As well as you would Offline with it.
I KNOW which moves work Online and Offline, and It's hard to get results with Vader as it Would with Talim, Maxi, or Rock. Most of his Horizontal strings are Sadly High which frustrates me since when they see me Dashing towards them they can Safely Crouch Or Rise and Block if I do a Vertical. Or worse Crouch and Side Step Punish me.

And I don't even play the CPU. The Edge master Difficulty is too Unrealistic to practice against. Also I never thought about GI after 66B...Hmm...Interesting >_>

 

[Xeph]

And you didn't make a Definitive reason as to why He does have Online BS.

1b,1b,1b 6A+B? I don't know any Competent Vader that does 1B more than Twice. Because 8/10 Chances he will get punished for doing it three Consecutive times.

I just told you why vader has NO online BS. He has no Lag tactics or Lag lows. Vader is literally a Plain Character outside his Force moves. 2A isn't a lag low, 4B+K isn't a lag low. He doesn't have many Tech Traps, He has no Lag tactics outside of what anyone else can normally do online.

4B+K is easily stepped offline... though, not necessarily a lag low. His 2A is i27. Lag lows are usually considered i24 and above. I can block it offline, and can't online.

I Think you just don't generally approve of vader Simply because he's SW and a Guest Character. If you look more closely Vader is pretty damn slow even Offline. (And I would know, Got my ass handed to me by a Beasting Ivy and NM player Offline)

I use Vader, quite well, too. Also, Vader is not slow. He has an awesome step, his 1b is a great interrupt for close range, and 4b is a great long range interrupt. He's far from slow. And those "beast" players. I'm taking it they're no names?

I freaking hate Siegfried/Ivy/Soph Online but Offline their actually not as Crazy as I thought they were and I enjoy beating them and losing to them. That said those 3 I named actually Have lag lactics and Lows as to which Vader doesn't.

Siegfried is crap. Ivy is top tier, and Soph is arguably high tier. they're good offline, very solid. And lag tactics are more than just lows... anyone can abuse frame data online, which is why it's called lag TACTICS.

 

[ShadowCollector]

Vader 11K is a lag low believe it or not.

GIing after something pretty unsafe is generally lag abuse iirc. Some moves just have to slow of a reset to be able to GI offline right after it.

Vader being slow is complete BS. He can force cancel safe moves and step forward making for some scary mixups. You must not use him properly.

He Can only Force Cancel from 1A+B or A+B. Or a few moves like WR A or BB. Even so I wouldn't say his Mixups would be as scary as Mitsu or Lizard.

Siegfried was never good to begin with, and Ivy/Soph are still really good offline. Shrugging off things like TAS B and Ivy 9B for instance will get you murdered in a tournament. I guarantee it.

Vader is absolutely amazing at disobeying frames online. Most of his punishable moves become safe in a 4 bar connection (even 5 bars punishes can be lagged).

Debatable. Although 5 Bars still has input delay either way you look at it. Just horrible netcoding. By punishable do you mean AA, BB, 4B, 2A, 3A, etc? I noticed BB is extremely safe Online compared to offline but I still have to test out 1BA since I rarely throw out that move unless it's a follow-up for 66B if they don't shake it.

 

[sephalump]

Alright then fuck it. wall of text incoming, and Troy/HRD/Static I'm sorry for this.

First off lag lows are so far from the worst online causes that it isn't even worth bringing up. I can lag the fuck out of someone with mitsu and never touch 1A/11a. Same is true for Vader. For the record, he even has something similar to mitsu in his high unblockable. It's slow enough to react to in almost all cases, but online lag can make you eat it. That isn't too big a deal though, and I'll be the first to say it's still easy to react to online.

Atop that in the very first post I explained lag bullshit with Vader. 66B is -16, and I can punish it with agA(well a~g~a+k on my control setup), consistently. If I'm not doing that I'm 3k-ing it offline. Online I'm left with 6K at best, and getting GI'd at worst. Isn't the definition of a lag tactic creating an advantagous situation using lag that would not exist offline? Having a reverse mixup off an unsafe move seems pretty online orientated. Atop that, you can't punish a mid-high GI with a knockdown low like you might opt offline so the risk/reward is slightly skewed. You have to risk delaying your attack which again, burns away your advantage letting him continue his pseudo rushdown.

Now for frame trap bull you can easily pull with Vader online. 1B~1B~1B~1BA is in every sense of the word online trash. Good luck ducking it online, and sure you can try a quick interrupt if you think they'll recycle the string again but if they finish it then you're getting CH and BT. Let's pull a darkfender here too, and bring up the blockstun online for this move. because of it you have a chore and a half of actually timing an interrupt between the street-fighter style block strings. Creating a frame-based pressure game off a -14 move with a high followup that's duckable offline everytime? Sounds shady too but what do I know.

Alright now that I've explained what I was actually trying to say and proven my side time to point out the useless parts of your argument to prove you really don't know what's going on here. Again don't hold this against me I just hope you learn to actually understand something before you try to correct someone.

1b,1b,1b 6A+B? I don't know any Competent Vader that does 1B more than Twice. Because 8/10 Chances he will get punished for doing it three Consecutive times.

They should get punished everytime, or at the very least have advantage shifted to the opponent. This doesn't happen online.

He doesn't have many Tech Traps

What does this have to do with being laggy? tech traps, ya know often the only chance most characters have to use slow lows in legit situations online...?

6A+B is a Mid/High GI. 3A+B is a Mid/Low GI. It uses meter and believe it or not It feels more delayed Online than offline.

Again, what's the point here? you're just reciting character qualities and not defending your post. just trying to prove you know the character. The GI itself isn't the problem, it's when and how it's used. second part...um everything is more delayed online. That's what makes it online and so iffy for serious playing. There's a lot of talk in this forum about lag, that's what that is. The delay...

If you look more closely Vader is pretty damn slow even Offline

you don't have to tell me to look more closely, I know the character's frames like just about everyone else's decently enough. They also don't miraculously change between online and offline, the primary difference is that he can be PLAYED to be quick online because 1B "pressure", and the fear of 6A+B even when it shouldn't work.

But yeah, I'm getting a bit tired and I have work tomorrow so I'm done with this. Anyone whose opinion I care about that's reading this already knows I'm right because they know their shit. For the record though, that cookie should be almonds and dark chocolate chip.

----Edit----Well fuck xeph and jargen already did all this for me. I don't really feel like deleting it, if only for that cookie.

 

[ShadowCollector]

4B+K is easily stepped offline... though, not necessarily a lag low. His 2A is i27. Lag lows are usually considered i24 and above. I can block it offline, and can't online.

4B+K is extremely disappointing move. It's so near useless it makes me cry. It can't Punish Side Roll, It only KND off a CH, Low Damage, Uses a good amount of Meter, Etc. I only Use 4B+K if my opponent tries to play footsies with me.

He has an awesome step, his 1b is a great interrupt for close range, and 4b is a great long range interrupt. He's far from slow. And those "beast" players. I'm taking it they're no names?

Love 4b. That's one of my Favorite moves with Vader, Although I generally don't do the A follow up for 1b for Fear of it being Ducked. Although Arguably on a 5 Bar connection it could be Ducked by reaction and 2k punished.

Soph is arguably high tier.

Wow I thought I was the only one who Felt Soph was more than just a Mid tier or even Upper-Mid. She FEELS like a High tier whenever I fight her.

 

[ShadowCollector]

Super Snip

Hmm.

Didn't think 1B was incredibly useful. I only follow up with it twice for fear of Punish. And No almonds on your Cookie. However I will approve of Chocolate Chip.

But Wait his A+B is Easily Ducked even by Online Standards. And Delaying your hits does seem to work. Maybe it's me because I don't play a Very Aggressive RushDown Vader and I like to Turtle and take my time. Although I never thought about using GIing off 66b. Normally just moves that leave me open as they would Offline (Such as BB).

I will admit you are right about Lag tactics. I Always Confuse it with the Idiotic WR AA, 1a, Etc I deal with so I confuse the Lows with Tactics. Although Would Grabs by definitive terms be considered Lag tactics?

 

[ArcticKomodo]

Lag is still a relevant topic?

 

[SCPartisan]

Although Would Grabs by definitive terms be considered Lag tactics?

Grabs are boosted online, but the same can be said for just about everything. They can still be broken fairly easily (Asta/Ivy JF grabs are an exception) and ducking them is possible if your opponent is getting predictable.

Of course reacting to a grab whiff can be difficult online so all kinds of bullshit can fly afterwards (not easy to get away with it in a good connection).

 

[ShadowCollector]

Grabs are boosted online, but that goes for just about everything online. They can still be broken fairly easily (Asta/Ivy JF grabs are an exception) and ducking them is possible if your opponent is getting predictable.

Yeah but that's the problem. I can see a grab coming but When I Tap down my character reacts 2-3 Seconds late to duck the grab even on a 4 Bar connection.

 

[Xeph]

Lag is still a relevant topic?

It is the online section....

 

[sephalump]

Hmm.

Didn't think 1B was incredibly useful. I only follow up with it twice for fear of Punish. And No almonds on your Cookie. However I will approve of Chocolate Chip.

But Wait his A+B is Easily Ducked even by Online Standards. And Delaying your hits does seem to work. Maybe it's me because I don't play a Very Aggressive RushDown Vader and I like to Turtle and take my time. Although I never thought about using GIing off 66b. Normally just moves that leave me open as they would Offline (Such as BB).

I will admit you are right about Lag tactics. I Always Confuse it with the Idiotic WR AA, 1a, Etc I deal with so I confuse the Lows with Tactics. Although Would Grabs by definitive terms be considered Lag tactics?

grabs are lag buffed but if you're playing online it's one of those things you need to suck up and deal with.
1B isn't incrediably useful, it's just laggy. Offline use it only when you think you'll be landing a CH. A+B is easily ducked and I said that. Still I've eaten if when I put in 2G on 4 bar connections. Vader has difficulty rushing down. Xeph and Oof manage it somehow but that's what separates them from guys like me. don't start gi-ing off unsafe stuff. Imho it's just as bad as 1A-ing someone if not worse. offline(and I've proved this) I can punish Cassandra's 236(B) with iGDR. Not everytime, but I expected them to do it and got them for it(cough, troy, cough). Online i'm lucky if I get aB. That's how bad the lag is for punishing and it works great for an aGI.

 

[Nirf]

Although Vader has no "Online BS". Anyway you look at it, Vader has no way in shape or form to be even remotely cheap online. He doesn't even have any known Lag lows or a set of lag tactics. 4B+K may be it but it can't be blocked on reaction Offline either. Also BB ~ 1A+B works just as well online as it does offline.

I've never seen (in tournament footage) or heard of anyone ducking 1BA on reaction. It's one of his most important strings. Without it, most of his other moves tend to be very very slow. He doesn't have a real 2A or BB. It's one of the only thing making people respect frames vs Vader.

This string is highly boosted in lag. 1B/1BA mixups are a legit strategy offline, but like any string completion tactics they are insanely boosted online.

 

[sephalump]

I've never seen (in tournament footage) or heard of anyone ducking 1BA on reaction. It's one of his most important strings. Without it, most of his other moves tend to be very very slow. He doesn't have a real 2A or BB. It's one of the only thing making people respect frames vs Vader.

This string is highly boosted in lag. 1B/1BA mixups are a legit strategy offline, but like any string completion tactics they are insanely boosted online.

Um, you can hear a sound when he switches the lightsaber back on, and even if he doesn't do the A it's -14. twitch duck it, and if he doesn't do the high you're still at like +5. 1B/1BA isn't a legit pressure tactic it's just a good interrupt.

 

[Synraii]

Oh christ I wasn't expecting a post this dumb from Nirf:
Seph was ducking and punishing 1BA vs. Oof at SJ with iWSA - watch that. Hell, my reactions aren't that good and I cosistently iWS(B) that shit with Sieg in casuals. The only reason its so loved is because its an i14 mid, and one of Vader's quickest moves, not because you can rush down with it. (Which you can't...)

 

[Juez]

Not to mention Vader has NO moves that can punish Side Roll but 4A+B Which uses meter. His 66B whiffs most of the time and his 2k can't even punish rolling. Add on top of the fact most people either Shake his BB or GI the 2nd Hit, There should be no reason to even remotely complain about vader online or offline. To Cry about falling into Impact Traps is worse than Crying about Spam.

No. Vader can punish rolls with 44b,66b and 4A+B, and most players with not stay on the ground to roll against vader because 4A+B will give you a free force lift and possible ring out. Also why does it matter that people shake his BB? once they get hit it gives you more options on your own movement.

Let's talk Offline. 44A+K is also +Frames on block OFFLINE (Which leads into funny A+B Follow-up moments.)

Like I posted earlier. Vader is a Very Plain Character. Actually he would be Bottom-Mid tier (Yet he's still Mid tier.).
He's Side step punished or Crouch punished very easily. His Force Moves uses too much meter for so little Scaled damage combo Potential.

His Frames are Average to Below-Average at best. His only non-pressure moves is 4B or 6BB.

Online 6A+B is also laggy as well. You can't punish Taki's 66k or Astaroth's 66AB As well as you would Offline with it.
I KNOW which moves work Online and Offline, and It's hard to get results with Vader as it Would with Talim, Maxi, or Rock. Most of his Horizontal strings are Sadly High which frustrates me since when they see me Dashing towards them they can Safely Crouch Or Rise and Block if I do a Vertical. Or worse Crouch and Side Step Punish me.

44A+K really? That move is something that you shouldn't bother with since it uses way too much force and since 99/33A+K are much better options. He isn't a plain character at all and he is actually considered high mid tier. His force moves don't use that much meter if since they are quick cancels that leave you open for mix up options. Comparing Vader with Talim, maxi and rock is pretty dumb considering Vader has much better tools in his arsenal than the 3 of them. His horizontals are fine and if people are blocking you than just force cancel your moves and grab them. If they crouch then 4b or better yet 3B+K and get some free damage.

4B+K is extremely disappointing move. It's so near useless it makes me cry. It can't Punish Side Roll, It only KND off a CH, Low Damage, Uses a good amount of Meter, Etc. I only Use 4B+K if my opponent tries to play footsies with me.

It is a good move as its a i19 move that people can't block on reaction and people will only step it if you throw it out from a distance. It is a good way to end matches and catch people for that cheap win.

It seems like your trying to make vader sound like he is garbage tier and that is not the case at all, guy.

 

[REPROBEAN_CHILD]

So this dude is hovering over random in player select trying to get me to go random with him.
I don't, he gets mad and picks Yoda and send me this:

"way 2 puss out on random so yoda joke fight"

After I win I get this:

"good job wuss u win yoda joke fight"

lol

I've played that dumbass before. I forgot his name, but he went over random selection with me too. When I cut to the chase and just choose my character created mitsurugi, he said "I pussed out" and earned a joke a fight with Yoda. I beat him 3-0 and he kept going on about it being a "joke fight" afterwards. If he really wants to play that random shit like some western fast draw, he's a bigger joke than any Yoda match.

View attachment 8035

All because I booted him after he used practically every lag low Kilik has... charmed! XD

lol. I like how straight-up he was about it xD

 

[Lasercakes]

I really like the posts that've been going on for the last page or so. The new players that joined after the SC5 hype never got to read the 12 essays posted daily about every single nuance of lag ever and why it's so dumb. Not sure what happened, but I think posts of this nature are extremely useful for newer players that have nothing else around but online.

ShadowCollector, I think your heart is in the right place, but I also think you're a bit too sure of yourself. If you can manage to catch me online, I'll make it a point to break all your bad habits or at least spot them for you.

Just one quick thing on 1B, 1BA. I have seen Oof hit people with it, people like Thugish.

 

[ShadowCollector]

Snip

Why does the Idea of Laser Cakes sound Delicious?

Sure I would love to fight you laser but I never even knew you could 6A+B after 66B. Or even 1B for that matter. However i do use it after 2A.