The B+K BE thread

Lasercakes

[12] Conqueror
There's no way this move doesn't deserve its own thread. It may very well be the most unique and complicated move in the game and the Zwei SA so far imo hasn't done a very good job talking about all of its properties at length.


Properties:
- B+K can be used after a slight pause after B+K BE without interrupting B+K BE.
- B+K BE can be used immediately after B+K.
- Using other Ein moves (except B+K) before Ein comes out from B+K BE cancels B+K BE.
- Movement after B+K BE and B+K BE ~ B+K affects Ein's range.
- B+K BE can be delayed with (B+K) BE
- Successfully just guarding does not interrupt B+K BE.
- If Zwei is hit or grabbed B+K BE is interrupted.
- B+K BE is special mid.
- B+K BE and (B+K) BE have 30 active frames.
- If Zwei blocks an attack before Ein comes out B+K BE will be interrupted.
- Ein comes out 64 frames after inputting B+K BE. Impact at i77.
- Ein comes out 69 frames (Needs to be verified) after inputting (B+K) BE. Impact at i82.

Stuff to figure out:
- What's the block stun?

It will also be worth discussing B+K BE setups, canned setups and how effective they are, or any where else you can reliably get a B+K BE off (whiffs for example).
 
J

JustinAkatsuki

Guest
Good timing Laser. B+K BE is in fact a strange but effective move...Now I don't have alot to contribute about this move since...Im still testing the moves properties myself. But the setups I use for B+K BE is 214B and 1K. I mainly use B+K BE and 1k on oki but standing works too. If your opponent gets hit with B+K instead of maybe 4B...try B+K BE? after that if they tech maybe 214B into the unblockable hit works, and if they roll 1k and B+k BE is guaranteed.

Im not sure if 1k catches back rollers tho...I know it catches left side. And I'll check to see about it's length later.
 

Fnargle

[08] Mercenary
I used this move once in practice and have no clue what it does. I've completely overlooked it.

Could somebody post a video of it in action? Show some applications or something.
 

Lasercakes

[12] Conqueror
66BA B+K BE is the setup I use the most, but most people I play don't back tech it, so they either get blown up by 1K or 214B. You can end the combo with 1A or 66A+B.

B+K BE potentially works after other knock downs as well. I need to investigate how strong each of them are, but B+K B+K BE seems good. B+K 4B BE B+K B+K BE would probably be good against or near a wall or stage edge.
 

theoriginal

[09] Warrior
Do you activate the B+K BE before 66BA or while they're on the floor? Activating before seems like a gamble, basically praying the opponent doesn't block what's about to come after he sees Z.W.E.I. pose, flash yellow and say "you're on!"

(I'd understand your notation better if you used "B+K BE" for activation and "EIN" for when he hits.)
 

Lasercakes

[12] Conqueror
None of these will require B+K BE activation before hand. Also I will abbreviate B+K BE as UV ("Unleash Vanargandr" abbreviated) since I think that'll be easier to read next to B+K setups.


Pretty much all of these can be beaten by back tech unless mentioned otherwise. If it's beaten by 2A. I think there's very few places you can't replace 1K with 9B with depending on the mind games you have going on in your match.

66BA UV 1K- Doesn't seem to be the force block I thought it was. Omega 2A beats 1K out.
66B UV 1K - 2A wins.
WR B G UV 1K - 2A wins.
B+K UV 1K - However definitely is a force block. Still loses to back tech.
B+K (Airborne) UV 1K - Can't back tech 1K. 214B in place of 1K beats 2A.
4B UV 1K - Actually trades with 1K. Still cancels UV though.
4B BE UV 1K - Also a force block.
4B BE B+K UV 1K - You will also lose to 2A, but with a wall the distance your opponent rolls will be variable. This still maybe a viable setup.
4KB UV 1K - Gets beaten flat out by 2A. Swapping out 1K with 9B will work though.
CH 6A UV 1K - Beats 2A.
3B UV 1K - I think this might be the best setup UV has. Since you can't tech after launchers you can't back tech, and it beats out 2A.
33B UV 1K - Gets beat by 2A. Swapping out 1K with 9B will work though.
22A UV 1K - Beats out 2A.
44A UV 1K - Beats out 2A.
1A RCC UV 1K - Beats out 2A. I will try this out at the end of combos too at some point with a Playstation controller.
A+B UV 1K - Near a wall or ring edge (did not test wall splat) 2A beats out 1K.
66A UV 1K - 1K loses to 2A.
8A+B UV 1K - Loses to 2A.
Einless 1(B)K UV 1K - Loses to 2A.
Einless 66A+B UV 1K - Loses to 2A.
Einless 44B UV 1K - Loses to 2A.
CH Einless 6B+K A UV 1K - Loses to 2A.
Einless 6B+K B UV 1K - 1K actually beats out 2A lol.
6K UV 1K - Beats 2A near a wall.
44K UV 1K - 1K loses.
9K UV 1K - 1K loses.
4A+B UV 1K (near wall) - 1K loses.
4(A+B) UV 1K (near wall) - 1K loses.
214A UV 1K - Loses to 2A.
CE UV 1K - CE and 1K actually combo after UV, but Ein doesn't actually connect.
CE B+K UV 1K - Looks like the best place to do it in the standard CE series.
CE B+K 4A+B UV 1K - 2A trades with 1K.
3A BE UV 1K - There's so much stun here that I don't even get CH trying 2A. 214B becomes a force block instead. It appeared 214B would even beat back tech, but unfortunately back tech then an immediate clockwise step still beats it. It catches counter clockwise step.
44B_(B) (without Ein) (Airborne hit) - Like the other untechable setups 214B even beats out 2A.

B+K BE seems to last about 30 frames. Proof: Pyrrha 6BK on hit puts us at neutral. I use the block stun to buffer B+K BE. I can't block 1A (i30). I can block 4B though (i32). So B+K BE is either 30 frames or 31 frames long. Algol 3A is 0 on hit. I buffer B+K BE through block stun and his block i31 1A.

And since B+K BE is 30 frames and 1K is i20 and we know 4B B+K BE 1K trades with Pyrrha/Omega 2A (i13), I figured out when Ein comes out. He comes out on the 64th frame after pressing B+K BE. Omega 4B (i27) doesn't interrupt 4B B+K BE if Zwei is blocking, but vanilla Pyrrha 6B+K (i26) does interrupt it if Zwei is blocking.
 

Requiem

[08] Mercenary
It says in the Z.W.E.I. frame data in this forum that UV is i67, i72 on hold. If you're sure it's i64, you should ask someone to correct it.
 

Lasercakes

[12] Conqueror
It says in the Z.W.E.I. frame data in this forum that UV is i67, i72 on hold. If you're sure it's i64, you should ask someone to correct it.
I'm not saying it's i64. I'm saying that Ein pops out after 64 frames. Any attacks Zwei blocks past that frame will not interrupt Ein. And now that I look, B+K BE's impact frames are in the wiki, but they aren't what you just posted. Where did you get those numbers exactly?
 

xZWEIxXIBAx

[08] Mercenary
66BA B+K BE is the setup I use the most, but most people I play don't back tech it, so they either get blown up by 1K or 214B. You can end the combo with 1A or 66A+B.

B+K BE potentially works after other knock downs as well. I need to investigate how strong each of them are, but B+K B+K BE seems good. B+K 4B BE B+K B+K BE would probably be good against or near a wall or stage edge.
Not sure if your aware but after the B+K BE successfully hits there is a short period of time were the opponents legs are lifted up in the same manner as 1B counter hit delayed ein k which is an opening for Z.W.E.I.'s CE that may or may not be ukeimable ,havent tested. Also another good setup is the 11K to get the B+K BE.
 

xZWEIxXIBAx

[08] Mercenary
Another good setup is using B+K 4B BE then B+K BE it creates a long stun period making the love completely untechable
 

Lasercakes

[12] Conqueror
Thanks dude, but I think I already had that covered under 4B BE.


Appended 44B Einless air hit to my list up there.
 
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Fnargle

[08] Mercenary
Good read. I'll be adding this to my arsenal. I'm a Zwei noob still but he's tied with Pat as my sub.
 

Yubashiri

[09] Warrior
Thanks dude, but I think I already had that covered under 4B BE.


Appended 44B Einless air hit to my list up there.
Are there any good setups to force 44B Einless air hit? Ive done it a few times by accident, but cant find anything to do it consistently.
 

theoriginal

[09] Warrior
Would it be broken for B+K BE to come out even if Z.W.E.I. blocks an attack? Viola's 6B+K doesn't get stuffed when she blocks an attack, and she gets that move at no meter cost.
 
J

JustinAkatsuki

Guest
Would it be broken for B+K BE to come out even if Z.W.E.I. blocks an attack? Viola's 6B+K doesn't get stuffed when she blocks an attack, and she gets that move at no meter cost.
I say it would be broken. And viola's orb SHOULD not even come out after she blocks an attack.....and B+K BE does 55 damage I think on hit and thats alot...it would give zwei somewhat of invincibility with ein...I mean I know it sucks but hey atleasts we have a char that has to think and make good reads with B+K BE and not just throw it out there, unlike viola who can just throw out the brain dead 6B+K almost anytime she wants...so I say it teaches us a good principle haha

P.S it's very similar to what lasercakes was saying if Ein's cooldown was removed with the B+G throw...good for zwei but bad for the game.
 

theoriginal

[09] Warrior
P.S it's very similar to what lasercakes was saying if Ein's cooldown was removed with the B+G throw...good for zwei but bad for the game.
True. And I know what you mean about 6B+K being brain dead. It's like guaranteed pressure whenever she wants it. Brain dead is not what any move should be.