The future of Soul Calibur

[Mr.MeatHook]

*sigh* Due to the fact that being on the internet had nothing to do with my question, I decided against replying, figuring I would let others reply and take the thread where they wished, putting an end to these petty/futile "discussions" we were having.

Still gonna do that.

 

[optymuss]

good choice

im just saying. if you wanted to ask a personal question you are welcome to but you can ask it via PM or on my profile.

 

[Emanuel]

It's fine some people find predictability as a strength somehow, that's all I'm seeing here.

 

[Emanuel]

Lower your guard there. I thought we were giving critical opinions on the game. If you don't see a fact in my sentence there (3 move game = turtle wins,) please explain why.

Please don't make yourself look like a touchy fool. Surprise factors DO apply to skilled players. Are you insinuating that a skilled player would not fall for a mix-up? On this same note, are you insinuating that more moves will not affect mix-ups?

You sound like one of those "Just Guard beats all!" guys who assume that everyone who plays is a robot custom built by Daishi. There is not, will never be, and has never been a "perfect player." More moves WOULD affect gameplay, even at the highest attained levels of skill.

I answer this by stepping into your shoes and considering your, frankly valid (albeit concieted,) opinion. I suggest you do the same. Even if I more wrong than the guy who decided that it was high time for a holocaust, don't jump down my throat.

To address the rest of your post:
Sentence 1- Blanket statement with no back-up to try and retort to my own blanket statement. Don't take a high-ground here by making my mistake.

Sentence 2- Tekken. The rest is invalid, even seeing as both are fighting games.

Sentence 3 - Completely different matter. We're talking how move-lists affect matches. System mechanics and their affect on defense / offense is a different matter.

Newspapers are black and white.
Penguins are black and white.
Thus newspapers are penguins.

SC5 has less moves.
SC5 is more aggressive.
Thus less moves makes the game more offense orientated.

Get me?

Somebody with some damn sense, and is going to do as I did a couple of months ago, only to return to the very same thing.

 

[Solo]

So if...

Move A was i13, hits Mid, 25 NH damage, +6 on hit, -10 on block, -14 on JG, had good pushback on block and hit, a CH stun for a combo for 65 damage, and had the range of Natsu's WR K.

Move B was i16, hits High, 18 NH damage, +4 on hit, -14 on block, -20 on JG, had no pushback, a CH stun for 46 damage, and had the range of Zwei's throws.

Would you use move B even though they're both made for CH fishing and Move A is better in every way only because they look different? I know I would use Move A every single time for CH fishing.

 

[Zanaken]

Answering that would require a response that makes that Drakealdan dude look like a man of few words. Why use anything other than a mix-up of your best 2 moves and a grab?

Look, I'd explain it really clearly, but that would require a lot of effort for something I see as rather self-explanatory. If you can't see multiple strengths in using a more varied move-list, I have no idea why you even play fighting games.

Try FPS games where your options are bullet and bomb.

(I got over myself and decided to post in this thread again.)

 

[Emanuel]

Move A twice and then Move B because it's slower and you may possibly try and interrupt it, if your not fast enough i get my counter hit and if not? Good game, you got me.

 

[IdleMind]

Answering that would require a response that makes that Drakealdan dude look like a man of few words. Why use anything other than a mix-up of your best 2 moves and a grab?

Look, I'd explain it really clearly, but that would require a lot of effort for something I see as rather self-explanatory. If you can't see multiple strengths in using a more varied move-list, I have no idea why you even play fighting games.

Try FPS games where your options are bullet and bomb.

(I got over myself and decided to post in this thread again.)

I'm of the opinion that variety should give way to teachability and not wasting people's time. There is probably a reason FPS is an infinitely more popular medium than FG's, and I'd wager a large part of that comes in the barrier to entry. Variety for it's own sake is just another one of those barriers.

I said it before, and I will say it again: even if a game had about 8 moves per character seeing common use; good players still find a way to make the game their own, mix it up, and win. This is true even in SC5, where suddenly an entire category of moves have their own dedicated use (horizontals) because Step-G was finally removed. This should show you that any discussion of movelists relies on certain assumptions in the basic engine of the game.

In previous games with larger movelists, it didn't matter that you had 80 moves because the *core system* did not reward using them. That's why top level players in SC2 used 5 moves. You want a culprit for variety and usefulness? Blame the base system. On average, you have to use a wider variety of moves in SC5 to get by, even though superficially the amount of moves is less. That is because of a combination of move quality and move number of move niches have both increased.

To those who feel you need "more moves" to make your own style; you don't. You just need to improve. Any top level player will tell you the same.

 

[Zanaken]

Very solid post. Nicely put.

I have some counter arguments to make though. The first is obvious, and I hope you are on the same page as me on it; There is NO right answer.

The argument seems to go along the lines of "Oranges are tasty because they are zesty!" Which seems to be countered with "No, oranges are tasty because they're sweet!" Oranges are both tasty AND sweet. I agree with your points above. I totally do. The point I am trying to make is that it's a mix between the two.

We point out the strengths and weaknesses for move-lists, and try and point out a good course the game could run.

I think, on top of your ideas, what I would like to add is my original point. More moves make it easier to define your own STYLE. This is not your point, which stresses the fact that a small move-list can still bring out a PLAY-STYLE. You can play, using the same hypothetical 8 move-list, very differently to someone who also has access tot he same. You can be a super agressive, frame-busting baller, or you can be a turtle. This wont bring out your flare as a character though.

"But Zanaken, flare is useless, style is pointless, and frames are all that count." Sure thing, Bub. I'm quiting then. Would you play a game that's based on the same pokes and jabs? Even with the game engine remaining, graphics staying strong, the game becomes weak.

What if you like guard-crush moves? What if you want to focus on playing a grab heavy Ivy, or one based on her unblockables?

I am on my lunch at work, and can't put the rest down right now, but let me say this; Be careful with your mind-set. You assume that people who want more moves either want to gimmick others, or are blaming their losses on move-lists as the main factor. This is a slippery slope. It leads to ego. You have to assume a valid opinion until you see otherwise.

bb for now

 

[jtdam09]

"But Zanaken, flare is useless, style is pointless, and frames are all that count."

I thought of the game Dive Kick when you said this. In this day and age, Dive Kick is a prime example of what "interests" the fighting game community now.

Rather unfortunate for me, because I hate that game and the premise behind it, but I can't say the same for everyone else, because they love this game.

 

[IdleMind]

I think, on top of your ideas, what I would like to add is my original point. More moves make it easier to define your own STYLE. This is not your point, which stresses the fact that a small move-list can still bring out a PLAY-STYLE. You can play, using the same hypothetical 8 move-list, very differently to someone who also has access tot he same. You can be a super agressive, frame-busting baller, or you can be a turtle. This wont bring out your flare as a character though.

I'm calling bullshit on this. Flare is an arbitrary term. Define it, then we can discuss it.

"But Zanaken, flare is useless, style is pointless, and frames are all that count." Sure thing, Bub. I'm quiting then. Would you play a game that's based on the same pokes and jabs? Even with the game engine remaining, graphics staying strong, the game becomes weak.

Please don't insult my intelligence by using hyperbole, then following it up with a statement based on hyperbole.

What if you like guard-crush moves? What if you want to focus on playing a grab heavy Ivy, or one based on her unblockables?

Characters are styles. All characters are designed with a style in mind, and are given specific moves to support that. If you want to play a character in a way that isn't supported by their intended playstyle, then of course it won't work. you are better off choosing one that does fit what you want to do.

Before you even say it, no, giving characters more tools to fit multiple playstyles isn't a good thing. Why? Because the more you do this, the closer you get to making everyone the same. If everyone has roughly comparable tools for the sake of allowing multiple "playstyles" (by your definition, not mine and not the developers), then the differences between the characters becomes less relevant.

This is what happened to Tekken. Mishimas were the best characters in the game. Instead of increasing the uniqueness of the given characters and giving them specialities; they all got varying shades of what made Mishimas good. Now we have a roster of MORE which is functionally less. 50 characters that are virtually no different that one another. I do not want this just so people can have "flare and style". Just pick a different character.

I am on my lunch at work, and can't put the rest down right now, but let me say this; Be careful with your mind-set. You assume that people who want more moves either want to gimmick others, or are blaming their losses on move-lists as the main factor. This is a slippery slope. It leads to ego. You have to assume a valid opinion until you see otherwise.

Enjoy your lunch, but do me a favor and don't explain to me the rules of discussion. It comes off as patronizing and I don't appreciate it. The opinion business has to stop, otherwise we get to a point where innane things become said, like for example "my opinion is you have no right to your opinion." It's a circle jerk, and no discussion can be had in good faith unless people wager their thoughts without resorting to "WELL THATS MY OPINION" like its a trump card.

I thought of the game Dive Kick when you said this. In this day and age, Dive Kick is a prime example of what "interests" the fighting game community now.

Rather unfortunate for me, because I hate that game, but I can't say the same for everyone else.

Divekick is deeper than 90% of fighting games ever made. Divekick is deeper than Soul Calibur 2. It is the epitome of "less is more". You strip away all the esoteric knowledge FG's ask of you, all the bullshit, and it is essentially a game about reading your opponent and space control. The game has emergent gameplay, something that is like the holy grail of game design.

 

[GreatOne1939]

Okay so I'm probably gonna start some shit here but I'm drunk and really don't give a fuck right now. What I'm getting some people want bigger move lists basically for the fun factor. Whether it's through play or viewing the game. But a question, how much fun can you have if you have your big pretty move lists and you're still getting your ass whooped? I ask this because no one and I mean NO ONE that I've seen ask for this has shown that they had any kind of skill in this game period. And that's with this shortened more concise move list. Who knows how bad you'll be, struggling to get any kind of wins because that sexy ass 6A+K that's-19 on hit, that you love to use for flair is getting you fucked up. Who the hell would see any fun in watching two people flailing about just throwing out random pretty moves scrubbing each other out in a best of 5? This may sound egotistical especially because I myself suck, but show that you can handle this smaller move list and that you have even the tiniest bit of skill before you start asking for shit that you can't handle.

Okay back to my liquid breakfast. Good day to you all.

 

[Ramus]

Move list in Soul Calibur are like chess pieces, you have pawns, queen, bishops, king, horse, tower. choosing the right time to use them is very important, funny how the bad moves are the king useless as such, anyway if you use it right and is able to defend yourself against you opponent you might win, having more or less pieces don't make difference as long you know how to use the ones you have.

 

[Zanaken]

@greatone1939: I rock this game harder than magma hitting the ocean. This is why I can focus on flare, I feel comfortable enough with my move-list to start actually enjoying the game. Not just feel pressured for the win. I also stated that a more varied play-style is a strength.

It plays with your opponent's mind. This is good. I am a Yomi player at heart, I need to scare my opponent on top of my play. I get pressure from making them feel hopeless. I find getting hit by the same strong move causes frustration, not pressure or fear.

@SuckingMaw: Three years in the debate team has led to me to meet many people like yourself. You focus too strongly on being right, and being on top. You would score lowly as you focus too much on the personal. I am not trying to be "right," I am trying to give an opinion. Stating that an opinion is some sort of defense is downright hypocritical. What are you trying to achieve?

You stated that oranges are sweet, but refused to hear that they're zingy. You are forcing a stalemate in an argument that I do not believe even exists. I honestly feel that you have some personal problem with me. I feel comfortable with my own intellect, if I feel it's challanged (as I believe you think I am trying to do to you,) I don't take it personaly. The reason is simple; I don't dislike you, I don't like you, I don't KNOW you.

I am just talking about one of my favorite games, and what brings enjoyment to me. Stop forcing a non-issue.

"I think complexity does not lead to depth" -You
"I agree, but I enjoy complexity" - Me

Done.

 

[IdleMind]

I didn't bring opinion into this, you did. We were having a nice discussion until you started focusing on that. I noticed your last post focuses entirely on that. I find that is often a smokescreen for people who haven't really thought their opinions out, or are full of shit.

 

[Zanaken]

I didn't bring opinion into this, you did. We were having a nice discussion until you started focusing on that. I noticed your last post focuses entirely on that. I find that is often a smokescreen for people who haven't really thought their opinions out, or are full of shit.

So you stated fact, and I am full of shit? Who schooled you? The Republican party?

Enjoy your lunch, but do me a favor and don't explain to me the rules of discussion. It comes off as patronizing and I don't appreciate it. The opinion business has to stop, otherwise we get to a point where innane things become said, like for example "my opinion is you have no right to your opinion." It's a circle jerk, and no discussion can be had in good faith unless people wager their thoughts without resorting to "WELL THATS MY OPINION" like its a trump card.

And please don't strawman me.

I am just talking about one of my favorite games, and what brings enjoyment to me. Stop forcing a non-issue.

"I think complexity does not lead to depth" -You
"I agree, but I enjoy complexity" - Me

Done.

This is effectively all I have to say on the subject. I gotta get back to work.

 

[IdleMind]

And please don't strawman me.

Just a little payback for trying to pretend hyperbole is a valid argument tactic.

People discuss different points all the time. I addressed the substance of your position, not the substance of you. Taking it personally is your problem, not mine. I thought things were going rather well, actually. I called BS on something you said and asked you define it. You give me the post above. This isn't discussion, its rhetoric.

Invoking "imo" is a discussion killer. It "ends" discussion. It's toxic to the spread of ideas. It's akin to playing the religion card in philosophical discussion. We are better off just posting in ALL CAPS text our positions and walking away.

 

[Party Wolf]

snip.

It looks like some people think a high mid mix up is a good mix up.

 

[Zanaken]

Just a little payback for trying to pretend hyperbole is a valid argument tactic.

People discuss different points all the time. I addressed the substance of your position, not the substance of you. Taking it personally is your problem, not mine. I thought things were going rather well, actually. I called BS on something you said and asked you define it. You give me the post above. This isn't discussion, its rhetoric.

Invoking "imo" is a discussion killer. It "ends" discussion. It's toxic to the spread of ideas. It's akin to playing the religion card in philosophical discussion. We are better off just posting in ALL CAPS text our positions and walking away.

I give up. You're trolling. No one is this dense.

 

[IdleMind]

I give up. You're trolling. No one is this dense.

A guy using an undefined term like "flare" as a collary to his opinion is calling me a troll.
What's next, you are going to tell me characters don't "flow" like they used to as well?

WELL MY OPINION IS DIFFERENT THAN YOURS SO THERE CAN BE NO DISCUSSION

See, now I'm trolling.