Impending_Doom66
[09] Warrior
That is like saying someone invented guarding. I think it is stupid to say someone invented basic things like that.
the problem with sc...
- Thread starter tribaL
- Start date
That is like saying someone invented guarding. I think it is stupid to say someone invented basic things like that.
ShinobiBrown
[10] Knight
If the term "invent" were changed to the phrase "first to incorporate into a 1v1 fighting game", would it still be stupid? Really that's all the term "invent" is referring to in this context.
iKotomi
[10] Knight
Street fighter very much invented combos. Jump in heavy punch, srk was a very very big thing when it was discovered, even though it wasn't an intended feature.
Let's get back on topic.
I disagree with you a little tribal, I believe that your looking at the wrong side of the movement issue. You say that using the other movement styles (stances, for simplicity) aren't necessary to win, but you think they should. Did I misunderstand?
I believe that these stances can easily be used to win, but they are not due to the nature of competition. Make one wrong move at the wrong time, and you can/will be penalized big or small, but it can be a critical point in the fight. To my knowledge, most stance type moves give your opponent a CH depending on when they are hit. This is why I believe that from a neutral point these movements will waste frames and allow your opponent to hit you. At advantage or wakeup, they are safer, but at neutral, you will generally be giving your opponent advantage. That's why I think I see more people focus on standard stepping(which itself differs between characters) since it is safer to do during a neutral point in the fight.
I also considered the auto parries/evade some have, but as an example I see yun's crane, then I throw out an A. So the yun needs to set up the stance better. This is why him going into crane while im in the air, or down on the ground is ok, as opposed to him doing it while I'm standing. This is just one possible example. Angel stepping is fine unless you angle step into 1K, or a jumping attack (like sieg's 9B).
I went back to the OP for this, so if I misunderstood just let me know.
I disagree with you a little tribal, I believe that your looking at the wrong side of the movement issue. You say that using the other movement styles (stances, for simplicity) aren't necessary to win, but you think they should. Did I misunderstand?
I believe that these stances can easily be used to win, but they are not due to the nature of competition. Make one wrong move at the wrong time, and you can/will be penalized big or small, but it can be a critical point in the fight. To my knowledge, most stance type moves give your opponent a CH depending on when they are hit. This is why I believe that from a neutral point these movements will waste frames and allow your opponent to hit you. At advantage or wakeup, they are safer, but at neutral, you will generally be giving your opponent advantage. That's why I think I see more people focus on standard stepping(which itself differs between characters) since it is safer to do during a neutral point in the fight.
I also considered the auto parries/evade some have, but as an example I see yun's crane, then I throw out an A. So the yun needs to set up the stance better. This is why him going into crane while im in the air, or down on the ground is ok, as opposed to him doing it while I'm standing. This is just one possible example. Angel stepping is fine unless you angle step into 1K, or a jumping attack (like sieg's 9B).
I went back to the OP for this, so if I misunderstood just let me know.
Signia
[13] Hero
Coth, many stance->sidesteps, like Taki's PO sidestep, do not yield counterhits. This would give them incentive to use them to lower the risk of taking extra damage/knockdown properties.
Perhaps, but most stances are themselves moves that require frames. This alone still can put them at disadvantage from neutral. From neutral, they can/will work as mind games, but its like an attackless attack. However, yes I do recognize that all stances are not created equal.
tribaL
[09] Warrior
what i elaborated on is that,typically, most stances are either useless, or always used the same way. i've taken that back to some extent aside from certain characters such as sieg, taki, and maxi. most people, imo, play those characters essentially the same way with very subtle differences. obviously they aren't using the same exact move at the same exact times, but they are using the same handful of moves repeatedly.
i do not back down from my argument that people play this game too stiff and offensively-minded though. personally, i think that the whole point of this topic is a great precursor to the threads made in regards to hilde. everyone seems to think she's broken, but i have yet to see any vids where people actually prove she's broken.
watch most vids and tell me what you see. more importantly, tell what you don't see: typically, a lot of attacking is going on, and that's normal, but you don't see a lot of stepping, a lot of guarding, or a lot of patience. people are going balls-out trying to attack each other and there's a total disregard for being defensive.
how this involves people having a problem with hilde? quite simply, if you turtle against her, you make her life a lot more difficult, and american players can't seem to get that idea in their heads. japanese players are, from as far as i can tell, much more defensive compared to american players. i would say that i can use hilde to an effective degree, but i have a really difficult time against japanese players. they turtle-up against hilde because they know if they run-up and attack, or attack at stupid times (like when at a disadvantage, or when you know you're out of range), that they're going to eat some hardcore damage.
once american players figure out how to play sc4 with defense, you're going to see a lot of people having an easier time dealing with hilde. of course the ro juggle is always going to be a threat (unless they patch it), but not getting hit by it is the first step of having it not be as much of a problem.
Could you link some videos, that you are specifically referring too? A lot of videos that I've watched actually show more patience. That strategy your describing sounds like the online super aggressive strategy. I'd like to see the videos where of offine super aggressive play. I'll go look for some videos concerning hilde right now. To see what I can find.
EDIT:
http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=233
The mitsu was aggressive in the first round, but after the first round and the see saw stage, he did become more cautious overall
http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=199
I'm not really sure i would say jaxel was aggressive. If anything, he played more defensively after the first fight.
http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=193
This one kind of devolved into an attack then block, attack then block kind of fight.
This was how most of the fights I found in the videos section were. It just seems like everyone learned there lesson after a few ROs.
DrakeAldan
Follow the rules!
I would like to see some JPN "turtle" videos, too. (You said they love Sieg over there, right? lord knows I need to learn some patience with him...)
If we're talking "aggression" as "number of counterhits", the guys in Korea and Hong Kong suffer the same amount of damage from counterhits as the guys here in America do. Unless I'm looking at it wrong.
If we're talking "aggression" as "number of counterhits", the guys in Korea and Hong Kong suffer the same amount of damage from counterhits as the guys here in America do. Unless I'm looking at it wrong.
tribaL
[09] Warrior
try the cali regionals for one. not to mention the other vids i've already posted in previous pages of this thread exemplifying aggressive play in the overall.
http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=233
The mitsu was aggressive in the first round, but after the first round and the see saw stage, he did become more cautious overall
i like how i was talking about american players and the first vid you post is of french players. -_-
http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=199
I'm not really sure i would say jaxel was aggressive. If anything, he played more defensively after the first fight.
again, we're talking about american players and you show me canadian players. regardless, yea he played aggressive the first game. the second game was better. then again, anything i say about the second game is moot because, in the end, jaxel won, but you're not looking at the overall style, you're looking at "well, they blocked a little bit here and here!" which is perfectly shown here:
http://www.8wayrun.com/video.php?do=viewdetails&videoid=193
This one kind of devolved into an attack then block, attack then block kind of fight.
(CANADIAN PLAYERS. not to mention the same hilde player...)
you're missing my point which i obviously didn't explain well enough (which i probably did elsewhere in the thread if you looked). what i'm talking about is the overall style being defensive, not just blocking here and there.
i don't have any vids because, quite frankly, i don't record my matches (nor do i know how, or do i care to really). obviously, not all japanese players play defensively, but the better players i've played against tend to sway that way depending on my character choice.
one could just as easily argue that the korea and hong kong vids show a level of sc4 that has yet to be experienced yet in the states, hence why everyone got really excited when they first saw them. with the number of ch's going on, they are also tc'ing, stepping, and ducking like crazy. comparing that to what we see in american is definitely apples to oranges in terms of gameplay.
what i'd really like to see is jpn vs. hk/kor. that'd be an interesting match-up.
ArmLegLegArmHead
[09] Warrior
i can definately say no maxi i have seen or played used the set the way i do. or if they use my set they have very different tendencies. i mean ofcourse people are going to use the same frame and tech traps. whatever gets advantage and damage. one of the reasons soulcalibur is the only game i take seriously is the different styles and ways people play their character. momentum seems like a big part of the game but i think that has more to do with your perception during the fight than the system itself. i will say i would have liked to see more cancels and a bit faster gameplay, even faster stance shifts and cancels. but im used to people turtling maxi so this game is no different to me than the others.
Hot Rod Dave
"Saucy saucy minx"
i main maxi to, and would love also to see people get a lot deeper when using him. ill be xbl for the next few hours arm. hit me up if you feel like swinging the chucks at each other
tribaL
[09] Warrior
as i said earlier in this thread: my main gripe with maxi is they screwed up his game, forcing him to use the same loops. his best iteration, imo, was probably sc1. he had a lot of options both in loops and outside of them in his basic movelist. i really miss playing that style of maxi. he was fun as hell in sc1.
Please don't start an arguement with what you said "which i probably did elsewhere in the thread if you looked". I just looked through the whole thread and from what I can tell:
Me and you have VERY different definitions of what is aggressive. When I watched BLdave's video, I did not get the impression of aggressive. All I have is online, so aggressive to me is someone is only going to use G against me if I get them off me. Otherwise, they are going to keep attacking because of bamco's netcode.
I do see what you mean, but until you post a video of these Japan turtle masters, we don't have a real way to compare them without your word. Hell, ive seen the korea players, but I remember it wasn't as holy awesome as you describe it. Please record a match next time and post it so we can see it.
tribaL
[09] Warrior
i'm not starting shit... maybe my first post wasn't that detailed, but i've since definitely done much better in explaining my point.
anyways, if all you have is that form of online play, then your definition is flawed right from the get-go. don't take that the wrong way though, i'm not ripping on you. let me explain:
i play online only as well, but my internet is solid. yes, matches aren't just like playing someone in the same room, but they are as close as you can get without doing so. in short: the lag i deal with is enough only to hurt the finer points of the game, otherwise, playing defensively and offensively can be done effectively and that "keep attacking because of lag and not frame advantage" bs doesn't get people very far.
in regards to the bldave vids: if you can't see the aggressiveness in those vids in particular then i can understand why you don't get what i'm saying. that's aggressive. just because they use guard once in a while doesn't mean they got defensive, they just decided to block because they are in range of getting hit and are probably at a disadvantage for one reason or another.
I do see what you mean, but until you post a video of these Japan turtle masters, we don't have a real way to compare them without your word. Hell, ive seen the korea players, but I remember it wasn't as holy awesome as you describe it. Please record a match next time and post it so we can see it.
i don't record my matches (nor do i know how, or do i care to really).
i'm not sure how good these players are and i'm certainly not implying that they are better, or worse, than american players. what they are is an example to show what kind of play i'm talking about since i have no other way of showing you what i play against every time i play. the basic idea of not simply running up and attacking is exemplified here:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=xRZCtLTAiQo
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=sFK0A4Nu5fc
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=ggRJxtx0juA
before i finish, i have to address one last thing you brought up: how were the korean vids not that good? maybe you should look at those vids again. those players were fantastic and they showed great knowledge of the game. no offense, but i'd like to see you play against those guys and come out winning. hell, i'd like to play against them just to get my ass whooped.
DrakeAldan
Follow the rules!
Those were some real weird vids.
It seemed that the players... had the reaction speeds necessary, and were JF-capable... and there was good spacing, seemed like...
But the pace of the matches... seemed slow. Obscenely slow, almost.
I should probably watch them again (and mute the music >_>) but... it's pretty weird.
I'd like to see how they deal with bulldog types.
... man, I'm not understanding any of this. Paradigm shift, dude. >_<
It seemed that the players... had the reaction speeds necessary, and were JF-capable... and there was good spacing, seemed like...
But the pace of the matches... seemed slow. Obscenely slow, almost.
I should probably watch them again (and mute the music >_>) but... it's pretty weird.
I'd like to see how they deal with bulldog types.
... man, I'm not understanding any of this. Paradigm shift, dude. >_<
HajimeOwari
[11] Champion
That was a bad, stance heavy, gimmicky Yoshi from the first video. That Asta was surprisingly patient, though.
tribaL
[09] Warrior
when i first got sc4 i played pretty bulldog and the players i played against mostly couldn't handle it. anymore though, i can't get away with it unless the player isn't that good. you'd be surprised just how well the better players can handle bulldogging and how quickly they can adapt to it. just because they're playing a space game doesn't mean they can't play aggressive.
but to get back to my point: try playing hilde against people like that. now i these aren't the most perfect of examples, but you can take a guess of how this kind of play can affect a charge-heavy hilde player.
like i said, i'm not calling these particular vids high level, i'm just using them as an example to show the defense that i'm talking about.
HajimeOwari
[11] Champion
I couldn't help but criticize. I mainly posted to compliment that Asta's defense, though.
Foxpaw
[09] Warrior
Why does that astaroth hate throws so much?